How to handle genre pages

Genre pages are handled inconsistently. Some are page type index, some are page type trope. Some of the ones with trope page type are set to do indexing, some are not. Some include context with their examples, some don't, some include it inconsistently. Some are listed as examples in work page example lists, some are only linked in work page descriptions.

(Previous discussions: [1] [2])

Since indexes aren't supposed to be listed in example lists, this means that page type makes a world of difference. If a page is set to trope and then someone comes along and decides to set it to index, potentially a ton of examples across the wiki are suddenly breaking the rules.

Since genres can be loosely understood as collections of tropes (and other conventions), and since tropes can be played with, discussed, lampshaded, etc., I think that genre pages should be set to page type trope, which would at least allow for discussed/lampshaded/etc. examples to be listed.

Edited by Twiddler on Aug 1st 2022 at 3:50:05 AM

Well, suspect most of those wicks break the rules by being ZC Es to begin with.

I am leaning on having all genre pages set to trope+index (but I don't mind if they become pure indexes) I don't think the on-page examples would need context if they are trope + indexes. It would just be preferred. Although that's different to how other trope + indexes are done.

Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 1st 2022 at 10:55:29 AM

Macron's notes

I've always seen genres as not being tropes, but rather something to mention in a work's description.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I think they can be used as tropes but I think it will be easier to just have be indexes/descriptors. That's what they are usually used anyways.

Macron's notes

See, to me a genre isn't a trope but a collection of tropes. So it's weird to list it as something that "happens in the work" and not in the description as something that the work is.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I agree that sometimes, it makes more sense to list it in the description. But some genres may have more specific criteria, so may benefit from more context.

Also genres, like tropes, can have discussed/conversed/lampshaded/etc. examples.

That's fair.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Genres are never to be used as trope examples. That's always been a rule. They are above-the-line wicks only (meaning they go in article descriptions). They can also be indexes.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

My concerns are:

• Examples that may require context to explain how they fit. But if that context can go on the work's entry on the genre page itself, and the work page connected to that context via indexing, then I guess that works.
• Discussed/conversed/etc. examples, such as characters from Work A discussing a genre (which Work A may or may not belong to).
• Show Within a Show examples of a genre of which the parent work is not a member.

In all of those cases the genre can be used as an inline wick in a description without adding a bulleted entry in a trope list.

Example

• Show Within a Show: Apex Murders is an in-universe Horror docu-drama that Apex Legends players can watch while in the lobby.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 2nd 2022 at 6:10:59 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

What about the second case? Can the Playing With subtypes be listed directly as trope examples on a work page? e.g.

• Discussed Trope: The characters talk about conventions in the So-and-So Genre blah blah blah

(being vague at least partly because I'm not clear on the differences between Discussed and Conversed)

If they are discussing the conventions of the genre they are currently in, the correct trope is Genre Savvy. If they are discussing tropes in a general sense without specific applicability to their own situation, it's Conversational Troping.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Do we need to set the page type to "Index", or some other type? Science Fantasy is listed as a trope page.

Similarly, is there a unified policy when it comes to how much context should be needed? I was informed that removing the Zero-Context Examples from Iyashikei may have been improper due to its being a genre page, and wasn't sure if I should do the same for Science Fantasy.

amathieu13 Linked me to this thread. Another issue is genre pages like Lifetime Movie of the Week which has an extremely long folder of tropes found in that subgenre and other problems like being somewhat bash-y.

I say that genres should be indexes, maybe with context for their entries, and genres are formed by common clusters of tropes, but that's sure a lotta tropes to be just one genre.

For example, Death by Falling Over is a "thing that happens" in the movies, but I wouldn't think it's so central as to be worth noting? What plot purpose does it serve? Maybe if only the physically weak characters use it or something, but I don't think so?

"Tropes common to the subgenre" is too broad to be a good folder.

Also, "windows" is suspicious. Destination Defenestration is a separate trope. And Staircase Tumble is for stairs? Not sure which deaths by being pushed down stairs would or would count for "Death by Falling Over".

Edited by Malady on Dec 28th 2022 at 9:15:48 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

Personal best preference is genres being indexes of X Tropes and X Works and having an introduction how they came to be popular as own theme, like Horror, Horror Tropes and Horror Films.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

- That's good!

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

Are you suggesting merging these three into one unified Horror genre page?

Edited by amathieu13 on Dec 29th 2022 at 12:33:33 PM

Opposite, these are the examples how it should be.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Ah, so you're suggesting having a Useful Notes like page that just explains the genre and some of its key points of development. Then at the end it'll link to a "Genre Tropes" page and a "Genre Works" page, the latter likely having its own subpages for the different mediums given the length?

I think Amonimus meant that genre pages should be indexes that list tropes found in these genres and works that belong to their own genres and include an introduction about their popularity in fiction in the same index, not a "Useful Notes like page".

That might be a good way of going about it.

On a related note, I noticed that the Progressive Rock page is pretty bloated, to say the least, going beyond the "introduction about the genre and its popularity" aspect and reading more like a graduate thesis on the genre. I admittedly contributed to some of that bloat back in the day, and looking back, it could benefit from establishing more concrete guidelines on how to format genre pages as a whole.

Edited by bowserbros on Dec 29th 2022 at 6:27:04 AM

Be kind.

Some paragraphs can be shortened or straight-up cut. Maybe this is a thing for the Trope Description Improvement thread?

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This isn't a matter of "handling" a genre page, but the Ecchi index is a mess. It has plenty of works that are definitely not officially categorized as Ecchi anywhere, such as Free!, Minami-ke, and Ghost in the Shell, etc. It needs resorting and emphasis on animanga with "sexual overtones" not just any Pandering to the Base or anything that has well-endowed ladies without playing it for fanservice.

Ecchi page may need own cleanup to contextualize the entries. It may be confusing "has multiple cases of Fanservice" and "non-explicit erotica as a selling point".

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Does it? The page doesn't have that many works listed — one person can go and look up the work and see if it's categorized as an Ecchi or not and remove the ones that don't qualify as they're misuse.

The description may note that just because a trope is common in Ecchi works doesn't mean it solely marks a work as Ecchi, i.e, Thanks for the Mammary isn't exclusive to Ecchi, and a non-Ecchi work can have a scene or two of it (but not more than that).