I'm not sure how to revive this in TLP, so motion to cut.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope ReportWhat do you mean you dunno how to revive?
You can't unlaunch?
It was launched here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/launches.php?page=22
As of this edit.
Edited by Malady on Nov 28th 2021 at 9:06:27 AM
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576I think she meant that TLP will be useless...
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessI agree.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.BURN
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”Also, I didn't notice earlier that this trope is only from last year. Did this ever come up in the crash rescue thread? (I used to frequent that thread, but stopped quite a while ago.)
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.A glance at the TLP shows that the ethnicity's importance was contested prior to launch, but it was not resolved.
I do however agree that both "it's pointed out in-universe" and "this nonhumanskinned person also happens to be a person of color". Within the story there's no functional difference between the white Beast Boy now being green and the black Venus Dee Milo now being red, unless this is pointed out.
(However, I've wondered for some time if there could be a 'discount diversity' trope where actors of color are cast, but aliened up so they're not recognizably POC — like Quinn (human White Male Lead) and Drax/Gamora/Mantis in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, and maybe even the trend of turning BIPOC leads into animals — perhaps that could absorb some of the out-of-universe examples, but that's not a job for this thread)
Still undecided on whether or not a cut is the best way to go. Is the "ambiguity pointed out in-universe" part tropeworthy?
Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 29th 2021 at 10:27:05 AM
Are there enough examples of that specific version?
I can see a trope for nonhuman characters being coded as a specific human race or ethnicity, but that doesn't seem to be this trope.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessI'm not suggesting that idea as a replacement for EOM. It's very incipient and I'm not even sure I'll go ahead with it but it could be somewhere to put these current out-of-universe examples.
Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 29th 2021 at 12:54:03 PM
Fair on both accounts.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessSomeone pointed this put in the TLP, but this trope like many others is kind of dancing around a concept we are all sort of familar with- the Default Human Being, with deviance being noteable. The problem of course is that the Default Human Being changes a lot depending on the author, genre, time/place it was written etc. In most older western works it is a cishet white male, while in anime its a japanese male, etc.
So the thing is, there are a lot of tropes, such as this one, Ambiguously Brown etc, that are based on assumptions about both the author and the audiences views of the Default Human Being. And those tropes can be basically impossible to define without being 100% sure of those views. In fact, it can come across as racist/homophic to even try to define them. But we know there is a real concept there, particularly in older works, and that authors do make deliberate choices to vary from it in order to convey information. Im just not sure how on earth to make it into a quantifiable concept
Edited by Tremmor19 on Dec 1st 2021 at 7:40:00 AM
Well the default is at least a bit Creator Provincialism / Write What You Know?
Edited by Malady on Dec 1st 2021 at 4:58:21 AM
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576True. It also depends on setting. If the story takes place in Japan, it makes sense that the "default human" is Japanese. It makes less sense for a diverse country like America, but that's slowly starting to change anyhow.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessIMO, it's tropeworthy because the valid examples in the OP are clear demonstrations, but it's overly specific, I think.
So, since I cannot make crowners currently, do I need to ask for one to be made?
Options, I guess
- Cut and send back to TLP or trope salvage yard
- Make only examples mentioned In-Universe
- Keep as is
Edited by Tremmor19 on Dec 10th 2021 at 5:51:22 AM
Yeah, you have to holler for a mod to make the crowner and hook it once you have a set of options that you and other Tropers agree upon.
Macron's notesI don't see anything wrong with those proposals, except that we don't need a "do nothing" option because that's the default. Also, I think mentioning the Trope Idea Salvage Yard in the first option would be a good idea if nobody in this thread offers to sponsor it.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 10th 2021 at 3:29:55 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Made and hooked the crowner.
Macron's notesI'm not familiar enough with comics to have heard of this trope before, but after reading through it I think there is a tendency to obscure racial and ethnic characteristics of people by giving them mutations that make them seem far more alien.
I don't know if this is called Unfortunate Implications, but it does seem to represent a trend in comics to exclude *obvious* mi orities.
Should we keep it as a reflection of comic history? Or discard it as unworthy? I lean towards the formef.
I do think its a thing, actually- i have seen the exact thing you are describing (and i would also include a tendency to put minority characters in full body costumes, which serves basically the same purpose.) The problem is that, as written, this trope is just about anytime any character undergoes a full body mutation. Lots of the examples are just, "on a mostly white team, one of the white characters is actually green". Thats not really the trope youre describing.
At any rate I voted IUEO but did not downvote cutting the trope
Calling in favor of cutting and sending back to TLP or the Trope Idea Salvage Yard.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.There are apparently 0 wicks. I think someone removed them all already.
Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Dec 13th 2021 at 12:17:49 PM
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallYeah, me and someone else went through all of the wicks and cut the page a few moments ago. I also linked this thread to the old discussion page and made an entry for Ethnicity Obscuring Mutation in the Administrivia.Trope Idea Salvage Yard.
Since all of the work is done, I’m going to send this thread to the morgue.
Edited by MacronNotes on Feb 6th 2022 at 11:41:46 AM
Macron's notes
Crown Description:
What should be done with Ethnicity Obscuring Mutation
Currently this trope is defined as when a character belongs to "a certain ethnicity", but has non- human features that prevent the audience from telling what ethnicity they were previously. this applies regardless of how it is relevant to the story
My concern is that the description is PSOC— any time a character has their features changed to be nonhuman, regardless of what race they are, with some vague mention in the description about Ambiguously Brown. a lot are just "this mutated character has non human skin", for example freddy krueger
I would suggest either sending it back to TLP, or adding some kind of in universe requirement that the racial identity be pointed out or relevant to the story
wick check (plus a bunch of random examples from the page, since theres only 26 wicks)
Interviews with Monster Girls Vampires always have fair skin and blond hair and iris. This is why Hikari's father dyes his hair blond; it is to avoid doubts about Hikari's parentage out of this trope.
- Ethnicity Obscuring Mutation: Jinx is Indian but people, even other Indians, don't usually notice this because of her gothic style and her grey skin color (though she does have racial features).
- Ethnicity Obscuring Mutation: Jinx mentions that she was ostracized growing up due to being born with grey skin and pink her. Her Indian father all-but abandoned her as a child.
- Manhunter (DC Comics) Mr. Bones has translucent skin, which makes him resemble a skeleton in a suit. When he puts on makeup in order to talk with Kate Spencer in public, she's shocked to discover that he's actually a black man.
- Avengers Academy Mettle is black (and Jewish), but resembles a giant red robot with a Skull for a Head, and so he frequently gets mistaken for the Red Skull, a Nazi supervillain, much to his chagrin.
- The Venture Brothers The Guild: The Monarch guessed from the surname "Ong" that Wide Wale was Asian-American. Wale says his real family name is Welsh, suggesting he's Caucasian, but you can't tell with how whale-like he became.
- The Venture Bros. has White Noise, a white supremacist who, after a freak TV repair accident, became living static. Monarch is incredulous that White Noise refuses to be part of a gang that allows people of color considering no one can even tell he's actually white.
- Legion 2017 Cary Loudermilk was born to Native American parents, but appears to be white, to the point that when he was born, his father assumed that his mother had an affair. However, it turns out this was a result of his mutation, which meant he shared a body with his sister Kerry, who does have a Native appearance.
- Fullmetal Alchemist (Anime): Homunculi in Fullmetal Alchemist are people brought Back from the Dead (or close replicas thereof). After an initial monstrous phase, they look nearly identical to the deceased, but most will be Eerie Pale Skinned Brunettes regardless of their original hair or skin tone. This concealed that Lust was based on a brown-haired, dark-skinned Ishvalan woman—specifically the lover of Scar's brother.
- Glow Worm in Astro City is a glowing green worm man with energy projection powers. It turns out he was African-American before the accident that caused his transformation. He is not happy when a comic book publisher implies that he is a white supremacist whose crimes are driven by racism.
- Early in her career, the modern, Pakistani-American Ms Marvel used her newfound morphing abilities to pose as the original Ms. Marvel, who is white. She later abandoned this disguise because it became impractical when the actual Carol Danvers was now a more public figure, but the fact that she was able to do this means that during Outlawed, when she became wanted by the police, the cops declined to set up a dragnet for every South-Asian teenager in Jersey, because they couldn't be sure that Ms. Marvel wouldn't just use her powers to hide her ethnicity.
- One story in Love Romances involves a middle-aged Ambiguously Brown couple who get suckered into having their consciousnesses downloaded into robot bodies. It turns out that the robot bodies only come in a set range of appearances, so they both end up looking more Caucasian.
- In V for Vendetta, Codename V was left horribly disfigured as a result of the hormone experiments, and then they became even more disfigured when they blew up Larkhill and got caught in the flames. And the few records of V's life before Larkhill have long since disappeared. As Eric Finch notes, there is no way to determine V's race or even gender. Subverted in the finale, when the original V dies and Evey Hammond takes over their identity.
- In Captain America: The First Avenger, the Red Skull mentions that he no longer fits Hitler's criteria for racial purity because his transformation into a man with red skin and a skull-like countenance makes it hard for him to prove that he is white.
- The alien signal on Threshold has about a 50/50 chance of either turning its victims into super powered alien agents or killing them. If it kills them, it causes their corpses to undergo a disfiguring (and painful) transformation. In one episode, Nigel is able to have one such victim transferred to their lab for autopsy by claiming she's an Orthodox Jew. At the lab, he comments that for once, the disfigurement worked in their favor because she was actually Chinese.
- The Joker suggests he might be black in Injustice For All, saying to Batman, "You never met me before the bleach".
Batman: But all the public beatings... I'll need the entire Justice League coverup fund.- Tales to Behold Burst Lion is a white girl with auburn hair in her normal form, but has blue hair and red and yellow fur in her cat form.
- Section P same as above
- Strange Tales of the DA Multiverse same as above
- X-Statix: Venus Dee Milo is black, but her mutation has turned her into a cloud of energy, forcing her to wear a suit which obscures her ethnicity.
- X Men Deadly Genesis Darwin's skin is grey like that of classic "grey" aliens, making it impossible to discern by looking at him what his ethnicity is. He's afro-latino, for the record.
- Comic Book/Muties Ankhi. a Swedish girl who is shown to have been white with black hair before her mutation, becomes bald and has pitch-black skin after the mutation kicks in.
- X-Men: Xavier Institute Her diamond skin makes it difficult to notice that she's African-American.
- X-Men: Marauders Since he can't return from crystal to human form, his ethnicity is unknown.
- X-Men: 2000s Members: His beak and chicken features obscure that he's actually caucasian.
- New X Men Academy X He's from India, but his skin and hair color tend to distract from his actual nationality.
- New X Men Academy X He is Italian, but aside from his name there is no way to tell this.
- Earth Twenty Seven DEO His powers makes it difficult to notice what his enthnicity is.
/Earth 27: A.R.G.U.S. and Task Force X He was born as an african-american man, but turning into a humanoid crocodile makes it very difficult to notice now.- The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney) Quasimodo is either half-Roma or full-Roma. Unlike most of the Roma (or even his mother), he's light skinned and has red hair.
- In The Atomics, the Slug has a slug-like physiology that obscures the fact that she is a black woman.
- Sparx, a friend and ally of Superboy, has electric powers which have made her hair so filled with electricity that it looks like it's made of it, and her body and eyes are a glowing and stark white even though she's naturally a tan Caucasian girl with curly brown hair.
- Ben Grimm and Sharon Ventura, both members of the Fantastic Four, were mutated into bulky, rock-like forms as a result of exposure to cosmic rays, obscuring the fact that they are both white and, in Grimm's case, Jewish.
- Black Lightning's daughter Jennifer, who goes by Lightning, inherited a form of her father's powers that eventually has her body turn into lighting, almost completely disguising her African American heritage.
- In the New 52 version of Teen Titans, Solstice is an Indian girl who was mutated into charcoal-black creature with glowing eyes and Throat Light. The series also introduced Skitter, a black girl who developed an insect-like body.
- In Secret Warriors, Pod is a Finnish girl named Aikku Jokinen who became fused with a sentient alien suit that she was unable to take off for fear of killing the suit. Eventually, the suit ejected her, but left her with undersuit. For added obscuring, Aikku is a lesbian, but the suit effectively prevented from having sex and made it very hard for her to date.
- Beast Boy from Teen Titans is completely green, from his skin to his hair. He was originally a blond-haired white boy, however he was turned green in the same incident that gave him his powers.
Kroll from Star Trek Beyond is a black man, but when the crew meets him for the first time, they can't even identify him as human because of the mutation-inducing technology he uses to extend his life. Whateley Universe:- Basically any large amount of what is termed "Gross Structural Dystrophy" could lead to this. Cerulea's mutation turned her coloration into variants of blue, so her original ethnicity as a white American is utterly obscured.
Fubar underwent some transformation due to Cthulhu Mythos influence, turning a normal mutant human into some semi-aquatic being. Blot, who absorbs all energy, and therefore just looks like a black humanoid shape, as there's no light to show any of his features.Edited by Tremmor19 on Nov 27th 2021 at 1:55:22 PM