Can you show examples? From what I’ve seen, the site as a whole has a neutral stance towards 4kids, but if there’s unnecessary complaining, that can be removed.
Actually, this is more of a Short Term Project than a Long Term Project.
The Unknown
The Creator.Four Kids Entertainment page itself is pretty negative. I brought it up in the Complaining thread months ago but never got any feedback.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?There's examples all over the place like on the character page for Pokemon: The First Movie, complaining how Mewtwo was changed to a generic evil guy in the dub or the whole "jelly-filled donuts" thing or the Arbok/Seviper screw-up in Fan with a Plan!.
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![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's literally just mentioning the changes they did in fact objectively make. Hell, the jelly-filled doughnuts is a big meme within the Pokémon community, and none of the mentions of it are overly bashy (yeah, the example on Thinly-Veiled Dub Country Change is a bit snarky, but not bashy). And the whole "Seviper evolves from Arbok" thing is on a YMMV page, under the correct trope. So I really don't see merit in this.
That on the other hand is actually concerning. We could probably try to redraft the description.
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Well, if it helps, 4Kids is listed in the complaining cleanup sandbox linked in my signature.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
BTW, Cardcaptor Sakura wasn't done by 4Kids. It was done by Nelvana.
Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread! Yeah, but according to the Misblamed page, Nelvana dubbed it but 4Kids "messed with" the episode order in order to make Li the main character. Not to mention, the page flat out says that there's a lot 4Kids should be blamed for. That's very much unfair because 4Kids only did the voice acting for the anime and the "changes" that everyone likes to make fun of them for like on Spacebattles and You Tube were enforced upon them.
Kids WB was the one who messed with the episode order. 4kids never touched the show ever.
While that bit of snark should be deleted, is there proof that 4kids were forced to make changes? Some people say there is, but I can only find proof of the opposite.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Touché. But again, 4kids didn’t touch Cardcaptors. That is certain.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 21st 2021 at 3:48:23 PM
The Unknown
The Cardcaptors dub was done by a Canadian company. I'm not even sure if 4Kids was at all involved with the US-specific edits.
Eric Stuart apparently went into full detail about how their censorship practices were the fault of networks or even the Japanese rights owners. The question is, again, if 4Kids were involved with Cardcaptors in the first place.
Edited by Karxrida on Aug 21st 2021 at 12:45:54 PM
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?I did see 4Kids on Overshadowed by Controversy/Anime and Manga and Deader than Disco because the reasoning was they used to be one of the big names in dubbing but nowadays are more known for their "controversial" dub edits. My big hangup is that most people don't seem to get that 4Kids only did the voice work and love making insulting stuff because in the Infinite Loops, there was one Phantom of the Opera loop which was if it was done by 4Kids. This is despite the fact that the Shallow Parody page states that they only do Shonen series and would never touch something like theater.
Hi!
First of all, link your pages.
Second of all, 4kids also did script writing and paint editing. Yeah, a lot of censorship they were forced to do, but they still wrote the scripts.
Third, it’s clear that you are talking about how people are reacting off-site that this site documents. And suffice to say, there is nothing we can do about it. We don’t control opinions, we document them. Snark and vitriol I can understand, but we do not remove the examples themselves. Take it from me, a fan of The Last Jedi. I disagree with complaints, but I’m not going to remove them because they are well documented.
The Unknown
Made Sandbox.Four Kids Entertainment because I do think that page needs a cleanup regardless of other factors.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Shouldn't this sort of cleanup be on short term?
Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!
I agree with Plasma.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
And besides, the only reason why Cardcaptors is ever attributed to 4Kids in the first place is because it happened to be airing on the exact same network as Pokémon.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Hollered a mod to do the move.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness- shrug* I just thought the cleanup would take longer, hence why I put it here instead of short term
I feel like the Fix Fic section and the Turtles Forever pages such as the YMMV could be cleaned up because there's a bit too much negativity about how the 80's turtles were portrayed (I saw on the Fridge page that the reason why the 80's turtles were weaker was because we were seeing them from the 03 characters' point of view and as such their antics do come off as weird. Plus, an entry states that the 80's turtles know that in the 03 and Mirage universes, they don't have their protection from the B&SP). On top of that, the '12 Nick cartoon brought back the 80's turtles towards the end and depicted them as very weak when even Turtles Forever didn't have that problem.
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How sweet it is
Moved to Short Term.
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Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
The Canadian company that helped with the localization process for various 4Kids shows is Nelvana.
Yes, Nelvana and 4Kids are also involved with Kirby: Right Back at Ya! and that show's localization doesn't have as much negative reception.
Kirby is awesome.
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The first post in this thread does give me pause with its tone, but I do agree that a cleanup is necessary. 4Kids Entertainment undoubtedly has one of the worst reputations in anime history, and like any work or creator with an overwhelmingly negative reputation, it's translated to plenty of complaining and even some real-life troping (its dissolution is listed under Bittersweet Ending for instance).
It's hard to list specific points of attention because the complaining takes up a vast majority of 4Kids' page, but there's some parts I can single out:
- Bittersweet Ending: The company's dissolution. Sure, a company infamous for Bowdlerizing or otherwise toning down their properties for the sake of pandering, monopolizing Saturday mornings and poor publicity throughout the 2000s' closing is bound to draw cheers across the community, but the network was trying to do better in its final years and a lot of honest New York voice actors now lack regular work or, in the case of Dan Green, have entered semi-retirement. Several voice actors have also moved out of New York and now work in L.A. Misusing a narrative trope to describe a creator's IRL history. I'd say cut.
- Bowdlerize: Too many to list, but they backed off from the worst of it in later years. ZCE + complaining; keep but objectively elaborate.
- There used to be a comparison website that listed all the edits they made to their One Piece dub. You can still view it through Internet archive.
Weblink-reliant example.
- A similar page listing all the edits made to Yu-Gi-Oh! dub (Duel Monsters only) exists as well. Weblink-reliant example.
- There used to be a comparison website that listed all the edits they made to their One Piece dub. You can still view it through Internet archive.
- Gosh Dang It to Heck!: One of the most infamous uses of this trope. ZCE + complaining; keep but objectively elaborate.
- Inconsistent Dub: These subpoints are pretty much all complaining plus one justifying edit. This can probably be distilled down to a general, objective description.
- Was Gold Roger hanged or decapitated? And how did Nami get sick? ZCE
- It goes another way: expect to see one thing edited out in another show...only for the exact thing that was edited out to appear in another show they're dubbing. They didn't even have a problem with Misty holding up a cross to a ghost Pokémon in an early episode of the show, and have her saying, "You see this? It's a CROSS!" Never mind that crosses were one of the notorious things 4Kids censored in One Piece. This was because network standards are very fickle when it comes to censorship that they can change their policies immediately given the content they are censoring, which has resulted in these dubs having something edited while another dub having that thing not be edited.
- Keep in mind, however, that the first 40 or so episodes of Pokémon were dubbed for syndication, where censorship laws were less enforced (which also explains the use of guns in early episodes, mentioned above). Networks like WB and Fox were far more strict about such things, influencing the rest of the series' dub. Justifying edit.
- Mew Mew Power was infamous for this. 4Kids added the idea that Pudding (renamed Kiki) was living in a shelter. Then a dozen episodes later her house is shown. They had Mint (renamed Corina) "correct" this by saying she only thought Kiki lived in a shelter.
- Irony: Their attempts at censoring Kuina and Bellemere's deaths in One Piece backfired with a passion. This whole thing comes off as kinda complain-y; can probably cut it wholesale.
- In the original version, Kuina died by falling down the stairs and breaking her neck. In the dub, she didn't die, but she was crippled by the friends of a man she had defeated earlier, to the point that she can't fight any longer. In other words, adult men ganged up on a little girl and crippled her for life.
- In the original manga, Bellemere was shot point blank in the head by Arlong, which is pretty brutal. In the original Japanese anime, this was toned down slightly by having her shot in the chest instead. In the 4Kids dub, Arlong's gun is shoddily edited into a pointer finger, and he orders her imprisoned in a dungeon. Since it's established that she died even in the dub, that means that she starved to death, a much more painful and slower end than being shot in the head/chest.
- Never Say "Die": Overly-long list; every sub-point here comes off as complain-y, can probably distill it to a general objective description of the practice.
- While 4Kids' would allow characters to die on some of their shows — Shaman King, Ninja Turtles, and later One Piece episodes — it is much rarer to see the word "death" used to refer to it (although the word may be used in other contexts). An exception occurs, of all places, in an episode of Funky Cops, where the episode revolves around the faked death of an Elvis-like rock star, with the word is used constantly throughout the episode.
- Averted in Yu-Gi-Oh! episode 13. Tristan says "According to this, I'm dead!" Granted, he was standing in front of a tombstone, so avoiding references to death would have been Implausible Deniability even for them. (Ironically, in the Japanese version the character says nothing at all.)
- There is also the four-episode duel between Yugi and a Marik-controlled Joey in which the loser would be dragged to the bottom of the sea. While the words "die" and "death" remain unspoken, the explicit threat of drowning remains throughout. To compare, most duels in the series have the penalty of death swapped out for eternal banishment to the shadow realm.
- And there is also Yu-Gi-Oh! The Movie, where Anubis is known as the Egyptian Lord of the Dead, and towards the end of the film, tells Yugi and Kaiba that "It is no longer time to duel. Now, it is time to DIE!" In addition, a prophecy includes the phrase "Thus light and shadows both be killed." Helps that the movie was a PG-rated theatrical release, in which case the word can easily be used in such contexts.
- Episodes 17 and 18, the two part "Arena of Lost Souls" duel tosses this trope out of the window: the words dead and death are thrown about a few times, part 1 ends with Joey saying that he can't "kill his(Bonz's) monsters", and Bonz states that the zombies get stronger every time they're killed at the start of the second part.
- In the second part of the duel against Para and Dox, Yugi says that his and Joey's monsters sticking together will help them get through the 'murderous maze'.
- Early episodes which flashed back to Kaiba and Mokuba's past made it pretty clear that their parents died (Mokuba's flashback states they 'passed away', Kaiba's outright says they died). In the cases of characters like Raphael and Mako, this trope is in full effect.
- In Yu-Gi-Oh! GX dub, when a duelist loses a duel in one of the Duel Monsters Spirit World dimensions, they are "sent to the stars", though there was still a clear implication of death.
- On the Yu-Gi-Oh! GX example, a rare aversion is shown when Jaden defeats Amneal/Banner, with the deaths unedited. Of course, the dialogue still tones it down slightly by having Jaden say that Banner "gave his life" to help him. This is also averted when Aster Phoenix loses to Sartorius, with his body disintergrating in front of Jaden, though he gets better a couple of minutes later.
- Also with the above, there's the scene in which Sartorius revives Aster and places him on one side of a statue that's placed above a lava pit, to which Aster will plunge into if Jaden doesn't give him the other key to activate the satellite. Again, the dialogue tones it down slightly, with Sartorius saying that Aster will "fall to his ultimate doom!".
- Played straight, however, with Aster's father. In the original version, his father was murdered by someone who was trying to steal the Destiny Hero cards, whilst in the dub, his father vanished the night the cards were stolen.
- Viva Piñata, however, seemed to throw the use of the word around randomly, with one episode using the words suicide, death trap, and killed within the space of a minute.
- Cosmo's tragic death at the end of Sonic X was the only one in the show that they couldn't write their way around besides perhaps Maria, though neither are explicitly referred to as a "death".
- Kirby: Right Back at Ya! kept its death-related episodes. However, the dub has an unfortunate tendency use the word "destroyed", making Knuckle Joe's introduction episode downright embarrassing due to what the plot is about: "I'm looking for the Star Warrior who destroyed my father!". We're still allowed to see said father's corpse. We just can't say he's dead.
- Ultraman Tiga got away with it in Episode 19.
Munakata: But General Sawai, Maximum Luminosity could kill her [Rena]!
- In the very next episode, Daigo asks Yuzare if he is dead.
- In episode 4, the word is tossed around several times, in reference to the Jupiter crew as well as Ligatron itself.
- Not So Different: One of the dubbed episodes of Yu-Gi-Oh! GX had many references to Yu-Gi-Oh! The Abridged Series in the dialogue, and 4Kids themselves had said they are fans of it. Unfortunately, that was the only episode they did that in... Misuse.
This is by no means a definitive list, but it encompasses some particularly noteworthy instances of problematic writing on the creator page alone.
Edited by bowserbros on Aug 23rd 2021 at 12:27:03 PM
Be kind.My tone was due to the fact that I grew up watching Pokémon: The Series and Yu-Gi-Oh!, so finding out about 4Kids' negative reputation these days is pretty upsetting.
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Yeah, that much I can gather, it just sounded a bit close to jumping from one extreme to another; my apologies if I misread the intent. I myself remember being surprised by the negative consensus on certain stuff I enjoyed as a kid, so I get where that jarring feeling comes from.
At the same time I also do get why 4Kids has such a bad reputation nowadays and how they got caught up in changing attitudes towards importing international media during the 2000's, so some discussion about that and the factors behind it are warranted where appropriate (e.g. the writeup on Condemned by History, though even that could use some polishing up). I feel the key here is knowing where to draw the line between appropriate objective discussion (which can be kept) and plain old complaining (which should be cut).
EDIT: Did a rewrite of the Condemned by History writeup on 4Kids, with approval from the trope's own cleanup thread.
Edited by bowserbros on Aug 25th 2021 at 10:03:23 AM
Be kind.(When you haven't visited the project you started in a very long time)
Found this under Samurai Pizza Cats: Follow the Leader: Accidental one at that. The approach they used for the new scripts worked so well it went to influence later dubs released for the US market like Funimation's dub of Crayon Shin-chan, Geneon's dub of Lupin III: Part II note , and even MXC! Unfortunately, it also gave rise to companies like 4Kids Entertainment who is infamous for its Macekred anime series, gag based or not. Even then, it also encouraged Nelvana and its infamous Macekre of Cardcaptor Sakura.
Hi!
As someone who grew up watching Pokémon, Yu-Gi-Oh! and Cardcaptors (My parents and I have zero regrets about that last one), I cannot stand the fact that there are a whole bunch of Take Thats to 4Kids whenever possible. This is due to the fact that many of the edits they do have been done since anime was first dubbed. As such, I am creating this thread to get help in getting rid of the jabs.
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