Author's Saving Throw cleanup

i see i see. perhaps something like this could work, then?

• Author's Saving Throw: While Hogsmeade was well-recieved, there were many complaints about the area's design focusing on screen-accuracy over practicality. The lack of shade from the Florida heat can make the fake snow seem comical at times, and the cramped walkways make it difficult to navigate. The designers took these aspects into account when creating Diagon Alley: they specifically mentioned "Florida weather" as an influence on the area's layout, and as a result, it features more shade and wider walkways compared to Hogsmeade.

I think that works.

But is Hogsmeade any different? (Genuinely asking, I know nothing about Harry Potter). If Diagon Alley took the issues into account but Hogsmeade still has the environmental issues, it doesn't sound like an example.

hogsmeade wasn't changed, no. that's one thing i was considering when it came to whether it counted as a saving throw or not

Commented out the AST example on YMMV.Chunithm ^Context The Japanese version commissions a new cabinet while the International versions release it as a new software update instead in order to spare overseas arcades the cost of getting new cabinets.. I would move it to Trivia, but I don't know if the creators confirmed it or not, nor do I recall any fan complaints about the cabinets.

Found this in South Park's Trivia page while browsing for a Trivia page that contained Author's Saving Throw examples (I wanted to see an example so as to determine what should be about the example on the YMMV page of Final Fantasy XVI, given that it - appears to - contain an example of Word of God being applied).

• Author's Saving Throw:
  • After the Season 10 finale "Stanley's Cup" proved to be too cruel to be funny for a lot of viewers, Season 11's premier episode "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson" picked its targets much more carefully. i.e. It's white men who get humiliated the most for using a racial slur and Cartman gets knocked out by a dwarf after laughing at him for the whole episode.
  • Mrs. Garrison managed to offend a lot of transgender people, yet her sexuality was toned down considerably. While Mr. Garrison committed bestiality and tried to solicit sex from both his father and Cartman (though he thought he was soliciting sex from a pedophile and was shocked and disgusted when it turned out to be Cartman), Mrs. Garrison only ever had sex with consenting adults, though he did admit to being aroused by Tolkien in "Wing". The show's more enlightened attitude towards transgenderism was also shown in "The Cissy", which made a point on the dilemma of public restrooms.
  • "Safe Space" was a highly risky episode, as it could easily be misread as condoning cyberbullying. Come Season 20 and the consequences of harassing undeserving targets are shown to be very real.
  • Season 19 and especially Season 20's episodes were criticized for being part of a story arc rather than letting them stand on their own. Season 21 had a more loose continuity, with the only ongoing plot element being Cartman's relationship with Heidi. Season 22 likewise has some recurring plot elements (most notably the recurring school shootings) but most episodes are still able to stand on their own, being more similar to Season 18's use of continuity.
  • After years of environmental research made the climate change skepticism represented in "Manbearpig" look ignorant, Matt and Trey essentially admitted they were wrong with the season 22 episode "Time to Get Cereal," which turns the titular metaphor for global warming from an Attention Whore's made-up conspiracy to a Cassandra Truth's real and dangerous prediction.
  • Cartman lampshades in "Unfulfilled" how the main four are always breaking apart and doing their own thing nowadays instead of working together like they used to- something many fans had been pointed out over the past few seasons- which leads to them entering the bike race together.
  • Many fans were complaining the Garrison-as-Trump jokes grew stale in 20 and 21. Season 22 never mentioned President Garrison once, save for a brief Garrison cameo in the final scene, and President Garrison only had a major role in two more episodes (Season 23's "Season Finale" and the Pandemic Special) before Trump's presidency ended, while Garrison returned to being a teacher in the Vaccination Special.
  • There's a sort of cycle with Randy: Fans complain that he's getting too much focus, Matt and Trey take notice and use him less, but then he slowly starts getting more attention until fans start to complain again, et cetera ad infinitum.
    • Season 23 as a whole is a good example. The season's first five episodes were focused entirely on Randy and Tegridy Farms. The next four episodes moves the focus away from Randy, and onto some of the minor characters, like the PC Babies and Sheila Broflovski. Then the tenth and final episode of the season revolves around Randy again.

A lot of these sound more like Salvaged Story and none of them contain Word of God or Word of Saint Paul. I'm fairly certain that a certain amount of these can be moved to Salvaged Story, but what should be done about the others?

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on Oct 17th 2022 at 4:25:32 AM

1. Just a change in who they make fun of. Doesn't fit any trope I'm aware of.
2. Can probably go under Salvaged Story, but I think it could use a rewrite.
3. Salvaged Story.
4. That's just about story structure, not any trope I'm aware of. It might be possible to rewrite it into a Continuity Creep example.
5. Salvaged Story.
6. Structural change, also Lampshade Hanging.
7. Structural change.
8. Salvaged Story.

Since Salvaged Story does not allow for A Us, do we have a parallel sister trope that's meant to encompass sequel/sidequel/DLC alternate timelines/continuities whose primary intent is to fix a criticized story by offering a "better" take?

For example, the entirety of the Salvaged Story section for Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes was purged due to it technically taking place in A Us, despite a lot of the criticisms being made specifically in response to common criticisms of the plot and writing of the original Three Houses game which had been out for a while. In particular pre-relase footage made it pretty clear one of the aims of Scarlet Blaze was to address one of the most common story criticisms of the original Crimson Flower route, that players were not allowed to confront Those who Slither in the Dark directly, even if the creators didn't openly make an apology statement for it (not that they needed to, pre-release Edelgard detractors were already on edge and accusing them of having an agenda for doing so as their intent was pretty clear).

If Salvaged Story is going to be so strict, perhaps we need a come up with a replacement sister trope for when canon attempts a Fix Fic, since these clearly constitute valid audience reactions if the creator considers them worthwhile enough to address them in future works.

Edit: I didn't see the post about "Improved Second Attempt" last page. I'm going to start a Sandbox for it right here. Feel free to help out and add any examples removed from Author's Saving Throw or Salvaged Story that you think would qualify as an example.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 22nd 2022 at 8:05:46 AM

Hey guys, first time in this thread.

I found that the Spider-Man page have his own page for author saving throw.

All the example appears to lack the required Word of God / Word of Saint Paul for the trope.

What should I do? send it to the cutlist?

Bringing this from ATT, but is there any kind of centralized location for these sandboxes? In addition to Improved Second Attempt I found Salvaged Sequel Mechanic linked in a Trope Finder query - are there any others?

For now this might be the closest place to that.

• Salvaged Story
• Culturally Sensitive Adaptation
• Sandbox.Improved Second Attempt
• Sandbox.Salvaged Sequel Mechanic

Would this cut Author's Saving Throw example from YMMV.My Little Pony Make Your Mark be valid to move to Salvaged Story?

• One of G4's contentious aspects was earth ponies lack of clearly established powers^note Pinkie Pie's abilities were an acknowledged outlier. It took until the Season 4 finale stating "Without their strength, they will not be able to tend the land" to outright confirm earth ponies unique powers. But only a fraction showed above-average physical ability, and practically never supernatural levels of agricultural prowess, with non-earth ponies matching those abilities numerous times. broke the series anti-racism themes by having them objectively inferior to unicorns or pegasi. The series premiere addressed this by having earth ponies justifiably upset over lacking regained magic like unicorns and pegasi a major plot point and get clearly shown Green Thumb powers afterwards.

It is in the same continuity as G4 and seem to directly follow an issue from the original as opposed to being a separate story.

Also the old united AST is still rampant on the AST pages. Are we saving that for some reason (pending move to Salvaged Story or other such as applicable)? Or Should we create a sandbox for cited AST examples to replace the current page when ready?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Oct 30th 2022 at 11:52:58 AM

It might help if everybody who's been doing cleanup and purging AST entries saved them to a Sandbox in case they can be reposted under one of the above three categories. I created a temporary storage page here at Alley Oop AST Archive for the time being, but if you want a more formal page that might perhaps be better.

Apologies for the double post, but would a direct adaptation of a work into a different medium (e.g. the novelization of The Last Jedi which attempts to fill in plot holes that went underexplained in the film version, but otherwise purports to be the same story count as Salvaged Story or the proposed Improved Second Attempt?

Adaptations which may be based on a particular storyline but are technically in different continuities (e.g. the comic The Killing Joke versus Batman: The Killing Joke, as the former occupies a specific continuity called Earth-1 while the latter is its own thing) are unambiguously the latter, but what about those that don't make it explicitly clear they're part of a different continuity or timeline and thus the changes can be considered a Revision or Retcon?

I mean, my immediate concern there is more that it's unlikely a novelization would be responding to any criticism at all, as it's normally written in parallel with the source material. The Last Jedi novelization was an "expanded edition" that came out about three months after the film, but IIRC it was announced as such well before the film's own release date.

I think direct adaptations should be judged on a case by case basis, but The Last Jedi sounds like it's valid. I haven't read it, but it sounds like it's the same story but with descriptions of what the characters are thinking.

Also your Improved Second Attempt draft looks really good.

Edited by VampireBuddha on Oct 25th 2022 at 3:42:12 PM

So the TLJ and TROS novelizations should go under Salvaged Story as opposed to Improved Second Attempt as those parts are Adaptation Expansion meant to be canon to/alongside the original works as opposed to alternate continuities?

Like I said, I still have the reservation as to whether novelizations can count as responses to anything in the first place.

Thinking on it further, yeah TLJ is an edge case. Since it was written in tandem with the movie, it likely doesn't really count after all. Maybe just stick it in Adaptation Expansion and leave it at that.

Edit because I had another thought ~Ferot_Dreadnaught: The MLP example can probably be kept with some rephrasing. Suggestion:

My Little Pony Generation 4 was criticised for the fact that unicorns and pegasi have abilities that other types of pony lack, while earth ponies have nothing of the kind, Word of God stated that earth ponies have greater physical strength and innate connection to the land and environment, but this was never shown on screen. Make Your Mark rectified this by explicitly showing earth ponies' Green Thumb abilities, even making it a plot point.

Edited by VampireBuddha on Oct 26th 2022 at 3:08:03 PM

From Trivia.High School DXD:

• Author's Saving Throw:
  • After concerns that the final episodes BorN might have jeopardized the anime's continuity, Ichiei Ishibumi and Kadokawa wisely chose to play damage control. Ishibumi wrote EX and Kadokawa announced in late 2017 that Hero would adapt volumes 9 to 10; the animation production studio was switched to Passione. Likewise, as a show that they're serious about playing closer to the source material, the season began with an episode full of retcons that stay closer to the source material.
  • The hyped up match between Ddraig and Crom Cruach during the Issei vs Rias match in the Azazel Cup ends up relegated to the background. True Volume 3 begins by actually showing how it went, as the author explains that poor health made him cut corners in the previous volume.

Thoughts on what to do with these entries?

Resident Evil 6:

• Author's Saving Throw: Ada's campaign was originally meant to be singleplayer-only, but many players complained that it was the only one they couldn't enjoy with friends. Capcom then added in the generic Agent to fight by her side.

I don't remember there being an official apology from creators to go with this, just a postgame free update. It's also not a buff or a balance patch which is where gameplay updates are typically being directed. What would this fall under?

Likewise, where would the controversy over the mass gunning-down of Black enemies in Resident Evil 5, which was worse in earlier trailers but later trailers emphasized the presence of light-skinned Majini to make the enemies more diverse and the additional of a playable Black partner in Sheva (the game was originally intended to be single-player) fall under if both were clear responses to a widespread audience backlash, but there wasn't a formal apology from Capcom over it?

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 28th 2022 at 11:09:15 AM

gjjones:

For what I see, it look ok. But I don't know if the citations are correct. Also, should be in the Trivia page, no matter what

EDIT:...Know

Edited by SoyValdo7 on Oct 29th 2022 at 1:57:30 PM

High School DXD: The spoilered example looks valid, since it cites the author. I have no idea what the other one is even trying to say.

Resi 6: Yeah, absent WOG, we can't say for sure that's an example so cut it.

Resi 5: I don't think that falls under anything. Trailers are made when the work is mostly finished; as such, they reflect what already exists (Sonic's eyes being a noteworthy exception). A trailer which alleviates concerns raised by a previous trailer doesn't actually change anything about the story.

But for what it's worth, I have yet to play Resi 5, but I was there for the controversy. The majority of defence of the game was based on the first trailer; plenty of people argued that, while it does look a bit iffy, it also appears to be a case of black African being the victims of white American corporate imperialism. Those defences evaporated once people were actually able to play the game and got to the people living in mud huts and wearing grass skirts, which is a racist caricature of Africans. Sheva also earned rather a lot of criticism for being incredibly fetishised, plus the fact that the playable black character is much, much paler than the mooks the player is constantly gunning down.

After spending a bit of time redirecting Author's Saving Throw edits to Salvaged Story edits on the YMMV pages of the episodes of What If…? (2021), I took the time to recheck the Author's Saving Throw page. To my surprise, it appears as if the trope is no longer under discussion. As such, I realised that I may have jumped the gun on several edits. The edits are as listed.

Could you please inform me on what edits qualified as Author's Saving Throw, what ones should have been redirected to Salvaged Story, and what ones potentially need to be removed.

1. Agent Carter: Not any trope I'm aware of, since it's an AU.
2. HYDRA weapons: That might actually be a valid AST, since Agent Carter getting the Super Soldier Serum wouldn't have affected what weapons HYDRA soldiers were issued, so this establishes that at least some were using period-appropriate equipment.
3. Black Order: Doesn't fit under any trope I'm aware of. There might be something in there worthy of A Day in the Limelight
4. Collector: Adaptational Badass, as the example says.
5. Agent Coulson: Possibly Adaptational Badass
6. Uncle Ben: Possibly valid, since it establishes that he does have an uncle Ben. If not, Salvaged Story, since Ben died before the point of divergence.
7. Hulk: Not any trope I'm aware of, but would fit under the Alley's Improved Second Attempt proposal.
8. Mind Stone: Not any trope I'm aware of.
9. Not any trope I'm aware of.

None of them are AST because that trope requires Word of God or Word of Saint Paul, which none of those entries provide. The ones you list as "valid" are better fits under Salvaged Story.