Needs Help (new crowner 2/13/19): Hot Gypsy Woman

In Ask The Tropers a motion has been advanced to have this trope renamed as "gypsy" is a slur and has already been removed from the page.

The main counterpoint is that the trope is about a stereotype and replacement words would probably obscure that aspect & be unclear to lay readers.

Two additional points are that using offensive language is nowadays a bigger concern in society, and that such a rename in the past has resulted in trope misuse problems (as seen on e.g Asian Gal with White Guy and related TRS).

This needs a full discussion.

While I don't want to make light of the unfortunate discrimination and/or objectification of the Romani people that the word "Gypsy" indicates, if the term is used to refer to a particular character stereotype that is portrayed in media, then I disagree with a rename.

The function of TVT is to catalogue tropes present in a work, not to pass a value judgment over whether or not it should be. One of the discussion in ATT mentions Transsexual being renamed Transgender due to the negative connotations of the former, but the page also happens to be a useful notes page and not just a trope, so the change makes more sense.

Note that we also have a lot of tropes that refer to Asians as "yellow", which is also considered an ethnic slur, Mammy, which is an offensive term, and Shiksa Goddess, even though Shiksa is a disparaging word that in its original etymology apparently meant "loathsome or abomination".

Edited by Adept on Feb 21st 2019 at 11:23:29 PM

I agree with this post.

Yeah, I do think that in these cases where we're actively documenting the stereotypes as they occur in fiction, tropes about how certain people aren't treated with respect, it's... punchier and more effective to use said language in the title.

Tropes like Mighty Whitey and Mellow Yellow, Where da White Women At?, Half-Breed Discrimination, the aforementioned Mammy, Magical Negro, Magical Queer, Gypsy Curse, or hell, the entirety of Orientalism and half the tropes therein are much clearer and more effective for their less-than-PC-if-used-in-polite-conversation titles. And this is speaking as someone about whom multiple of these offensive terms would apply.

And as we saw with Asian Gal with White Guy, I'm preeeeeeeeetty sure this would devolve into a more literal listing, leading to another "attractive X" trope, which... sucks? I know we have a trope for pretty much every thing being attractive, but this is one of the few that's actually a trope and not just Hollywood Beauty Standards at work.

If someone of Romani descent comes and complains, I'd reconsider but until then, I don't think it's a good idea. Putting a clear disclaimer (akin to Half-Breed Discrimination) would be an excellent idea on this and Gypsy Curse, though.

Edited by Larkmarn on Jan 18th 2019 at 10:03:21 AM

Should ironberry's edits replacing every possible instance of "Gypsy" with "Romani" be reverted?

Personally, I'm not sure if that's worth the effort, but I'm not opposed or in-favor.

For the most part I'd rather keep the changes to Roma/Romani, except there are a few instances where they seemed to have changed it when it was a proper noun or a quote, which isn't a good thing.

While I don't think usage necessarily means condoning the slur (as in the case of the titles where it's done to get a message across, or in quoting someone saying it), a lot of those uses were just unironically using a potentially offensive word.

Edited by Larkmarn on Jan 18th 2019 at 10:33:36 AM

I agree with reversing it where the context was relevant (For example - quotes).

I don't see what's wrong with replacing "Gypsy" with "Romani" in text, unless it is a direct quote or a proper noun (that is, a name of a work).

But personally I'd vote "no" on a rename because this is a stereotype we're talking about. It's a very old, bigoted stereotype. If we change the name, the trope will also be less understandable because, like it or not, "Gypsy" is still much more widely understood than "Romani" and will be for a long time.

This is a stereotype, and I think the name should stay as is for that reason, but I'm open to discussion on the matter.

ironberry replaced every instance "Hot Gypsy Woman" in the text with "Hot Romani Woman", even in the description.

^ Yeah I think any instance of 'Hot Romani Woman' should be changed back to 'Hot Gypsy Woman' since that is the name of the trope.

Another thought: it's possible to be a 'gypsy' without being Romani (Irish travellers for example are also called 'gypsies', and groups in Indonesia/Philippines are also known as 'sea gypsies'), so some of the examples might not be referring to the Romani specifically but another nomadic group.

Edited by Clanger00 on Jan 18th 2019 at 6:26:41 PM

• Gypsy — a fictional stereotype amalgamating several Real Life peoples/cultures, used in European-descended culture with many similarities to fey creatures.
• Romani — a Real Life ethnicity with broad cultural differences who have often experienced oppression and marginalization.

I also think it should stay as it is. Personally I don't find the word Gypsy offensive or disrespectful at all, though I don't often use its equivalent in my mother tongue either.

The comparison with other tropes and their names is telling...

If the name stays, we should revert the edits. Because it's annoying and I think against wiki policy to pothole tropes with different/slightly changed names (e.g. Abusive Parents should not be potholed as Abusive Legal Guardians and whatnot).

Edited by XFllo on Jan 18th 2019 at 7:59:22 PM

While it is a racial slur, I agree with others that, as a stereotype trope, the name makes sense. I guess I wouldn't be opposed to a rename if the consensus does a 180 on me, but as much as we want to be inclusive and inoffensive, the name is what it is for a reason.

This sounds reasonable.

Also, I see no reason not to revert ironberry's changes to direct references to works and the trope name (unless the trope name gets changed, in the latter's case), regardless of what's done with the general wording changes.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 18th 2019 at 2:37:19 PM

Those changes should be considered a text replacement plugin unless proven otherwise.

Generally agree with what's been said here, but just pointing out that ironberry also added the disclaimer about the word "gypsy" which I do think is a good addition and shouldn't be reverted. "Gypsy" is an offensive term and the trope is a racial stereotype; the disclaimer both helps with understanding the trope and helps mitigate the offensiveness of the title.

I can agree with this.

I also suggest combing through some examples that are being misuse as a "a hot Romanian person" like so:

Dick Grayson is a male example. He's considered quite attractive and has a lot of fanservice. Dick wasn't revealed to be Romani until decades after his creation though.

Dick is considered one of the most attractive male characters in universe and out. But he doesn't dress as a stereotypical gypsy man for hotness.

Doesn't Romanian mean from Romania, the country? (nitpicky, I know)

I'm also in favor of not changing the name. As multiple people have said, it's a trope describing a stereotype.

I don't think Dick counts. He clearly wasn't created with the intention of playing into the stereotype and even though there are some coincidental similarities, intention is definitely a factor in whether or not someone fits a trope like this.

I personally think the name should be changed, at the very least. I realize that I can't offer any proof of this, but I know a Romani person who really does not like this trope (they used to post here, but don't anymore). Changing the name is the least we can do.

We do not, to my knowledge, use any other racial slurs in our trope titles - this should not be the exception to the rule.

Like, Angry Black Man is a stereotype trope, but we don't use the n-word for it.

^ What about, say, Mighty Whitey and Mellow Yellow?

Neither of those is exactly on n-word level (at least, by my reckoning - others may disagree). Now, some might argue that this particular example isn't as severe either, but I'd argue that that's because actual Romani people simply aren't very high up in public consideration, and as a result, their concerns tend to get ignored (not to say that any minority is more or less deserving of attention than any other - simply that some get less attention).

Mind you, if someone were to honestly argue for changing Mighty Whitey and Mellow Yellow, I wouldn't object.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Jan 18th 2019 at 8:02:07 AM