Hate Sink cleanup

Is Diavolvo a Hate Sink?

Didn't Araki say he was one of his favorite villains from memory (not his most which is Kira).

I do feel what's being redefined in this fashion is missing this:

A Hate Sink may have charismatic traits, a troubled past, or complexity, but in order for this trope to be in effect, such traits must be de-emphasized by the narrative in favour of their detestable traits.

We still have Clay Puppington as a Hate Sink despite him being a Jerkass Woobie because his inhuman dickisness makes the predominant emotion surrounding him being hatred and disdain.

I was thinking briefly of adding Griffith, but he's only really considered interpersonally despicable for that one scene, which he would certainly qualify for if it was his entire personality but he acted as more a dispassionate demon god who pulls off some legitimately epic scenes.

Yes this is his entry:

• Hate Sink: Diavolo rivals DIO in terms of cruelty and ruthlessness, but while DIO can be an entertaining and sometimes likable villain for his charisma and over-the top villainy, Diavolo lacks such traits. He's a paranoid, cold-blooded psychopath who is willing to murder his own daughter just to protect his identity and makes a gruesome example of anyone who dares to breach his privacy. Oh, and he's also a mafia boss who ignores every ethical guideline set to other mafiosi by having his criminal empire selling drugs to children.

This just kind of seems to be "he's really evil bro" and not "he's an annoying whiny brat, and this is always at the forefront, and he rapes people", which is the type of thing you'd need for a hate sink.

Having a Cry for the Devil moment (which is apparently possible even with Complete Monsters in some cases) may not innately disqualify him but it makes it harder for him to fit as well. Plus his ability is cool even if it's not explained well.

I mean the issue with Clay is that while he is a Jerkass Woobie, the show goes out of its way to show that Clay is unrepentant and now just wants to get some response from people regardless if it is negative as long as it made him feel better about himself.

Can we have a Hate Sink Cleanup cleanup? All these entries that read like Complete Monster-lite that were made in the thread's heyday are just unnecessary, and don't do much to explain why the character is supposed to be hated. The more I think about it, I'm not a fan of this trope as a whole, but it should at least be used right.

Edited by Stellarvore on Sep 4th 2021 at 9:53:16 AM

Um, might want to check out the TRS thread... Hate Sink will likely be undergoing a lot of changes.

Gonna need help verifying an edit, don't want to cause an edit war. Tried redirecting the user here, though he seems to have ignored it.

Found this on Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous on Cameilla’s character sheet:

• Hate Sink: Taking her full story into account, she's very easy to despise. She's a Bastard Bastard Serial Killer who tricks the player into believing she's a Well-Intentioned Extremist. Unlike Daeran or Wenduag she can't be redeemed and she's utterly selfish unlike Regill. She's also unnecessarily cruel to almost everyone around her, frequently mocking Ember and Lann even when they try to befriend her.

Im the person in charge of the CM and MB eps for this so Im going through the game and Im going to say that Cameilla isnt a hate sink by any means. Shes the most evil of the party members for sure and ultimately irredeemable but shes a useful party member in game(shes de dacto the main rogue/thief), dosent betray the other characters, and can grow to genuinely love the PC in her romance route, she leaves in her least bad epilogue because she dosent want her serial killing tendencies to kill the PC, and apparently(I havent gotten there yet), she can be talked down from killing her father if you allow her to kill other figures.

EDIT: Seems to be a moot point since HS is being made into a supertrope.

Edited by xie323 on Sep 18th 2021 at 4:34:56 AM

Hate Sink's thread has officially been closed; we can jump into cleaning up any examples we have to.

Yeah going to remove that entry unless someone else thats' played the game can offer a compelling counterargument why Cameilla fits this trope. I can see the point being made by the narrative that serial killers of said character's morality are irredeemable, but I don't think this character is portrayed the same way as say, Myron from Fallout 2 as far as totally evil companions go, and from what I heard about her romance and characterization, she does try to get the PC to genuinely consent to her activities and can develop genuine affections for the PC albeit in a twisted way. And of course she is extremely useful as a party member(whereas Myron is abysmally weak). This is also not getting into the fact that her behavior isn't even uniquely despicable: one of the Act 4 main quests deals with a Succubus Overlord that feigns Hidden Depths if you take good dialogue choices but is in actuality trying to play mind games with the PC.

Edited by xie323 on Sep 23rd 2021 at 8:25:20 AM

So per the vote to make a index/supertope, should we can start removing HS examples if they fall under any of the sub-tropes? Or is there room for overlap and or reason to wait?

Should we bring any suspect examples here to see if they fit it's sub tropes better?

HateSink.Animated Films

• A Bug's Life: Hopper. Even though he cares about his deceased mother and her wishes, it's still overshadowed by the fact that he is still a jerkass, a sociopathic monster, and a sadist who loves bullying and killing. The fact that he was more than willing to murder a child and doesn't really need what he steals certainly cements this. His death by getting eaten by birds at the end can be pretty satisfying for those who weren't horrified by it.

Hopper is the Big Bad, so I question if he's any more hatable/grounded than normal for such. And it notes he has an itoa of sympathetic traits which more than some Disney examples.

Yeah, any examples that fit subtropes need to be moved.

Edit: I just read that is a super trope and the argument is moot. Please disregard this.

I’d like to open up the discussion on Syndrome as some people have called him too entertaining but that’s not a unanimous fan consent and as such is a YMMV that can fall under Love to Hate and as per the rules of that trope:

“Compare Hate Sink, where a character's intended role is to be hated for their evilness. A Hate Sink can easily fall under the Love to Hate category if they are admired by the audience for various reasons despite being made for invoking their hatred (or even liked for being effective at their very purpose).”

And I think that Syndrome very much is liked for that very purpose. His most entertaining bits are pretending to be a hero which is a false hood which we already know before hand and his true self is designed to be hated which is the meaning of trope. Calling someone too entertaining because of a personal view of the character is not a grounds for saying he’s not at all that trope imo. He’s not affable like his assistant and shows no redeeming qualities whatsoever with a terrible personality that he shows towards even his assistant. I won’t add it but I think that removing someone because they are Love to Hate is wrong because a character can very much be both.

Sorry to dig this up if it’s been discussed to death. I just want to present an argument for his case as a Hate Sink in case one hasn’t been presented.

Edit

Edited by Furygildeman on Sep 25th 2021 at 6:24:36 AM

Issue with that is the director Bard Bird said he was meant to be a likeble bad guy. He even and the cast said they rewrote the thing as they wanted him to have a bigger role as they liked him that much (he was initially just a throwaway opener villain).

Yeah, a villain isn’t necessarily a Hate Sink. Syndrome’s too quirky to be hated.

Okay then I concede

A Hate Sink can be funny and yet still be reviled by the audience though.

I missed the results of the TRS. What happened?

@~Robert TYL I wrote that entry for Juno and I admit it was a little ham-fisted. I wrote a better one months ago though.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 4th 2021 at 9:00:35 AM

No.

If their supposed to be funny. Their not an example. Where did you get that idea from ?

I think because there's probably comedy villains that have amusing or laugh worthy moments—subjectively anyway—and yet they're not sympathetic characters to the point that you do actually hate them because of how mean or harsh they can get. I think of White Goodman. He's funny, but he's also despicable too.

That make sense?

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 4th 2021 at 10:49:48 AM

The TRS didn't change too much. Hate Sink is a supertrope now and we need to move examples to the subtropes if they fit better, but otherwise it's all business as usual.

i think a hate sink can be funny as long as they're not a bumbler or too affable to hate. someone can be an absolute bastard and still make jokes, and it shouldn't exclude them from being a hate sink.

It depends, I think. Comedy is often used to make a character more likable, but portrayal can certainly vary. A character's actions can Cross the Line Twice, for example.

In a comedy, it is my understanding that a Hate Sink can be funny, especially if the humour derives from the character's well deserved suffering. I believe the term I would use is "Chew Toy".

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 5th 2021 at 3:49:04 PM

Found this CM-lite example on Film.Fantasy Island 2020:

• Hate Sink: Melanie Cole is a young woman who is a "Psycho Stalker Chick" having stalked Sloane Maddison in high school and gotten pranked by her for it. Seeking revenge, Melanie follows the lives of Sloane and the other future guests of the island closely to plan to bring them there and have them all tortured and killed. Melanie also obsessed over a man named Nick Taylor whom she only had one date with and sought to "avenge" him when he is accidentally killed in a fire the other guests are vaguely around during. Melanie has Mr. Roarke abduct Sloane for her and while pretending not to know, Melanie tortures her behind a glass wall through means of electrocution, dousing her with toilet water and exposing her affair to her husband. Melanie has nightmarish versions of the others' supposed fantasies unleashed on them as zombie-like individuals, resulting in the deaths of J.D. Weaver (temporarily) and investigator Damon and a rescue plane being blown up. Melanie then finally tries to kill them all with a live grenade and Patrick Sullivan sacrifices himself to save the others.

Not only is this just a list of transgressions, I'm not sure if she's actually a Hate Sink or not since she's an Evil All Along type who initially seemed to be sympathetic.