During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I think what swings it for me so it's not that bad? The guys were already rapists. Dudley decided that if they're going to catch them at a time when you need some triggermen at a diner shooting, you might as well use what you got.
Oh, Occasional Exister informs me he wishes to propose Toffee from Star vs. the Forces of Evil and La Sombra from Hey Arnold when he gets a chance.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 9th 2018 at 8:11:23 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Dudley
Okay with already 4 votes and more to come I'll Write-up Gordo pronto:
- The Gift (2015): Gordon "Gordo" Moseley was troubled youth horrendously bullied by Simon Callem during high school. Upon learning that Simon still mocks him behind his back, Gordo enacts a complex plan to get back at him. He would tap in to Simon's sound system so he would hear his every move, orchestrating several break-ins at his house, leak information about Simon's underhanded business tactics to his bosses costing Simon his job, and give Simon a video of Gordo next to his wife Robyn. When Simon demands Gordo if he had sex with Robyn Gordo doesn't confirm or deny the fact causing Simon to rush to the hospital where he is met with scorn from Robyn, whom Gordo told her of Simon's bullying ways. With Simon breaking down after loosing his job and wife, Gordo watch from afar before walking away completely satisfied that he ruined Simon's life similar to how Simon ruined his life.
For those who still want to vote for Gordo here's the link to Gordo's EP.
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 9th 2018 at 5:36:43 AM
The Duke of Dank
What about DCAU Riddler.
Maybe. We'd need to see him properly proposed. Any thoughts on Dudley, all?
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Film!Dudley. Book version seems too disgusting.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Gordo. Even if he goes for Asshole Victim or no, he's still motivated for revenge. Something that I can't call magnificent IMO. I mean, he's ruining someone life for being a bully in highschool.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 9th 2018 at 11:44:39 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Pucci, Gordo, Dudley.
Nah, the whole point for Gordo is Simon is still an asshole and ruining people's lives. Gordo gives him a chance to show he's changed and he hasn't.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Honestly. I'm still not convinced. I better just abstain.
Maybe we just have really different definitions of what's Magnificent. Hurting a Asshole Victim is not enough for me.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 9th 2018 at 11:50:30 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
And I think this is one of the reasons why this trope is truly a YMMV trope and should stay there.
And yeah, expect An EP from me soon from an Indonesian film that I watched around 2 weeks ago. But I need to correct the grammars of my EP before I posted it so yeah...
Also, a yea to Dudley too and your prev. Candidates Lighty
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 10th 2018 at 12:33:20 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
The next of the David Eddings' examples I'd promised.
Who is Stragen? What has he done?
Stragen is the bastard son of a Thalesian nobleman and the woman sent to attend his ailing wife during her last days. Serving at court as an administrator, Stragen beat out the son of a duke for a position, and when the man became abusive, challenged him to a duel and killed him. The dead man proved to be a cousin of King Wargun of Thalesia, so Stragen went on the run with a price on his head. When his father distanced himself from Stragen and sent Stragen's mother away, Stragen returned home to kill his father and his two half-brothers, inheriting the title if not the ability to use it. Joining up with the local band of thieves, Stragen tried to persuade his predecessor that they should start preying on the nobility instead of the commoners. His predecessor took issue with this idea and drew his sword, so Stragen removed him from office and became head of all criminal operations in the Thalesian capital of Emsat.
Approached by Talen, who works for Platime (Stragen's opposite in Cimmura), Stragen provides sanctuary to Sparhawk, Kurik, and Sephrenia during their hunt for Behelliom, sending his right-hand man, highwayman Tel, to guide them through the mountains. He later returns to Cimmura with them where, alongside Platime, he becomes an adviser to Queen Ehlana, helping to organize the home guard that defends her during her army's absence. When Sparhawk departs for Zemoch to confront Azash and Martel, Stragen accompanies him to the Zemoch border, carrying letters from the Queen which he hands out to Sparhawk at various intervals. During the encounter with the Dawn-Men (primitive ancestors of humans and Trolls alike), Stragen is the one who discovers their hearts are located in their bellies, not their chests, enabling the party to kill them all. He more or less exits The Elenium after that, returning home to Thalesia.
In The Tamuli Stragen plays a more important role, accompanying Sparhawk and Ehlana on their journey to the Tamul Empire. Along the way, he makes contact with the thieves guilds of the various Tamul subject kingdoms, forging a firm alliance with Caalador of Lebas in particular. Throughout The Tamuli the Thieves Council of Daresia acts as an information network for the protagonists, reporting the movements of almost all the major enemy players to Caalador, and through him, to Stragen and then Sparhawk et al. It's this network that enables them to find out who most of Evil Sorcerer Zalasta's dupes are, and their personal histories (Caalador and Stragen's report on Zalasta's lunatic son Scarpa is especially entertaining).
During their stay in Sarsos, the Styric capital, Sparhawk and his companions have difficulty convincing the Thousand of Styricum to aid them in their war against Cyrgon. Stragen grows tired of the bickering among the Thousand, and makes a speech in which he insults all of Styricum, threatens them with racial extermination, then offers them an alliance. In doing so, he cuts the legs right out from under the Styric reluctance to cooperate with Elenes (who have traditionally persecuted the Styrics, who are a combination of medieval Jew and medieval unconverted pagan, quite mercilessly). He apologizes to their Styric friends afterwards, freely admitting that most of what he said is untrue, but even they have to admit that his actions saved them a lot of time, and won the Thousand over to them.
During the intrigue in the Tamul capital of Matherion, Stragen and Caalador are the ones who take to burglarizing the offices of corrupt Tamul officials in order to uncover details of the plot to bring down the empire. They find the list that includes the names of every single low to mid level conspirator in the empire, totaling thousands of names. After Zalasta is outed as the main villain, Stragen and Caalador decide to keep him off his feet by arranging the murder of every single person on the list, in what they freely, and proudly admit is the largest mass assassination in history. They have to talk very fast to get first Vanion and Sparhawk, and then Emperor Sarabian onside, but by the time they are done, Stragen is Minister of the Interior, Caalador is Chief of the Secret Police, and they have official sanction for their actions. The slaughter takes place during the Harvest Festival weekend, and, with some help from Sparhawk's magic jewel Bhelliom (which can teleport Stragen and Caalador across the Daresian and Eosian continents, enabling them to contact all of the local thieves' guild leaders in a single day) is perfectly synchronized, leaving every person who has ever collaborated with Zalasta or one of his henchmen dead. Special mention should go to the murder of Avin Wargunsson, Crown Prince of Thalesia, who Stragen's bagman Tel nails inside a casket of wine to drown.
Around this same time, Baroness Melidere, one of Ehlana's ladies-in-waiting, reveals to Stragen that she is running the largest counterfeiting ring in Eosia and asks him to either marry her and become her partner as she expands into Daresia, or be killed by one of her assassins. Stragen, who already likes Melidere but won't admit it to himself, is initially caught entirely offguard, but comes around to the idea and quickly becomes very protective of the Baroness. His plan to kill off all of Zalasta's henchmen bears fruit when Zalasta and his divine ally, Cyrgon, have to move direcltly, and are forced into a fight with the Troll-Gods, whom Sparhawk has freed from Bhelliom. Zalasta's original plan is left in ruins, and he resorts to having his son, Scarpa, kidnap Ehlana to try and force Sparhawk to deliver Bhelliom to him and his new ally, Klael (Bhelliom's opposite number, summoned by Cyrgon in a fit of madness induced stupidity after losing his fight with the Troll-Gods).
Stragen, Talen, and a couple of others infiltrate the ranks of the enemy in disguise, and learn the location of Cyrga, Cyrgon's capital, from Zalasta's former ally Ogerajin (who is now dying of syphillis and has very little mind left). They then join up with Caalador and the others, who had infiltrated Scarpa's camp, and head for Cyrga. Sparhawk kills Cyrgon, Bhelliom evicts Klael, and the series wraps up. Stragen is last seen heading for Astel to "have a word" with Elron, the last surviving member of Zalasta's conspiracy, who Stragen has long wanted to kill for being a bad poet, and now wants to kill for attempting to murder Melidere during the kidnapping of Ehlana.
What is his competition like? How does he perform against them?
Stragen never went up against Martel directly, so there's no real way to compare him to The Elenium's signature MB. Within The Tamuli, however, he's one of the most effective schemers around. His "celebration of the Harvest Festival" (as the series frequently refers to it) took Zalasta, The Man Behind the Man to almost everything in-series completely by surprise, and more or less wrecked his plans, derailing a scheme that had, up to that point, been operating quite effectively across two continents. More than anything else, including the exposure of his villainy by Xanetia, Zalasta's plans were ruined by Stragen and Caalador's decision to simply kill all of his underlings, and the resultant physical confrontation between Cyrgon and the Troll-Gods upends the plans and causes Zalasta's allies to panic and summon Klael, putting an end to the original plot.
The only time Stragen is found without a solution to a problem is when Melidere reveals her counterfeiting operation to him, then threatens him into marrying her at knifepoint. However, the thing to keep in mind here is that Stragen, by this point, already has a fairly significant interest in Melidere, that he is simply unwilling to admit to himself. By backing him into a corner, Melidere forces Stragen to admit his feelings to himself, and within a few chapters he's gotten used to the idea and is ready to admit he's in love with her. It's less a case of being outmaneuvered than a very unorthodox proposal from her to him, one which she knows he'd accept if he could get past his own bastard status.
Is he a Chessmaster? A Manipulative Bastard? Is he capable of thinking on his feet?
Of all the criminal kingpins we meet during the series, Stragen's the most effective. He built his organization to pillage the nobility rather than the commoners, bestowing fake titles on highwaymen and hookers so that they might move among the gentry and rip them off. He's able to parley his success in Thalesia into a semi-permanent position on the Elenian royal council, and eventually, the status of Viscount in the Tamul Empire. Within weeks of his arrival in Daresia Stragen is effectively running crime across the continent, replacing the ineffective guild system that the Tamul criminals operate under with a replica of his own operation in Thalesia, and building the most effective intelligence network in the series—one that not only gathers information across Daresia, but enabled him to arrange thousands of assassinations in Daresia and Eosia both.
A consummate conman, Stragen plays the noble dandy well, and is at ease in both the royal courts and back alleys of a dozen kingdoms across both Eosia and Daresia. He threatens the Thousand into helping them when appeals to their better nature failed, and he plays Ogerajin and his (non-syphillitic and therefore saner) attendant Valash for suckers in order to extract the location of Cyrga.
The "celebration of the Harvest Festival" is Stragen's response to the surprise revelation that Zalasta is the main villain of the series, and as discussed above, is a master counterstroke. When Ehlana is kidnapped, Stragen is one of several characters who immediately volunteer to act as infiltrators in order to get her back. About the only time Stragen doesn't have an immediate counter to a problem is Melidere's proposal, but see above for more on that.
How much of a Bastard is he? Does he have redeeming features? Is he capable of being charismatic?
Stragen murdered his father and his half-brothers for little to no reason, and runs a vast criminal organization based around, but not limited to, prostitution, piracy, highway robbery, and theft. The term "gangster" is never used, given that this is a medieval fantasy series, but that's what he is, and even amidst the crew of ruthless professional soldiers that is the main cast of The Elenium and The Tamuli he manages to be the Token Evil Teammate.
Stragen's far from without redeeming feature though. He's loyal to Queen Ehlana and to Sparhawk, a substitute father to Talen after Kurik's death, and once he gets used to the idea, very much in love with Melidere. He finds Elene prejudice against Styrics disgusting, and his only personal beef with the Styrics themselves comes when they start returning that bigotry to him. He plays a not-at-all-insignificant role in saving the world from Cyrgon and Klael come The Tamuli and is always elegant and courteous, regardless of the situation.
Final verdict?
After Martel, Stragen is probably the most obvious keeper in the series. He has a fair amount of help from Caalador, as you'll note from the above, but he's always the senior partner in the partnership, and the one who has to smooth their ruthlessness over with the less vicious members of the cast. Far too nasty to qualify as a Guile Hero or even an antihero of any stripe, Stragen's an antivillain who happens to have fallen in with the right side of a divine war, and conducts himself accordingly.
Thoughts?
Goku Black
Dudley and stragen
Edited by miraculous on Jul 10th 2018 at 2:35:52 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Alright, here's the example that I will bring. Many thanks to Arivne from Get Help With English Here forum to proofread my EP. Without further ado, let's begin. However, MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD!!! As this guy is revealed in the end part of the movie.
What's the Work
So the work name is Target...An Indonesian comedy-thriller film made by and starring Raditya Dika, who plays a fictional version of his real self. The film tells us about Raditya Dika and his other 8 actors/actresses friends receiving a mysterious email from a mysterious company inviting them to shoot a movie called "Target". However, it turns out that they are trapped in an abandoned building by a cunning mastermind. The mastermind then orders these 9 people to follow his game for making the movie and any of them who defy his orders or flee from the scene will be murdered. And needless to say, This mastermind is the one that I will bring today.
Who is He/What Has He Done
Alright...So The mastermind here is the one who trapped Raditya Dika and his other 8 actors/actresses friends so that they could either play his games and solve his riddles to make his own movie or be murdered if they defied his orders. However, it turns out that there's more than it meets the eye regarding the mastermind himself. It turns out near the end of the movie that the mastermind is one of Raditya Dika's friends, Hifdzi Khoir.
Alright, here's the deal about him. Before he was revealed to be the mastermind, he mostly spent his time as comic relief in the movie. Some instances where he was played as a butt of a joke for the film: Asleep while eating porridge, people were angry about his weight, getting electrocuted 2 times in a row, crying because he doesn't understand English words that one of the participants of the game, Cinta Laura, is saying and said that he regrets that he didn't take English class and in the beginning and after the game ended that killed the 6 people out of the 9 contestants. He ended up getting injured and sent to the hospital after fighting with the fake mastermind who planned to bomb the abandoned building. However, it was all revealed that what he did is actually Obfuscating Stupidity at its finest.
Near the end, the remaining survivors, Raditya Dika and Cinta Laura, think that the fake mastermind, the master hypnotist Romy Rafael, is behind all the bad things that happened to them. However, Raditya Dika is then called by the police and reveals the truth to Dika himself. In 1980, there was a movie director called Finto Rizmi who wanted to make a movie in order to pay his overwhelming debts. Needless to say, the script is quite similar to the things that happened to him and his friends when they were trapped in an abandoned building. However, none of the film producers accepts his idea and then Finto commits suicide by burning himself. After the truth is revealed, Dika then realizes that he had seen the surname "Rizmi" before and feels something familiar about it.
The truth is also revealed to Cinta Laura by Romy Rafael's wife. The wife then says that she was kidnapped by the real mastermind and that the collar doesn't electrocute everybody. At first, Cinta denies this, but after realizing one of the contestants' deaths was falling down the elevator shaft despite the fact that she should have been electrocuted after defying the mastermind. Cinta is surprised about this. Both Dika and Cinta then go to the real mastermind's room and the real story is revealed.
Romy Rafael was forced to pretend to be a decoy mastermind because his wife was kidnapped by the real mastermind and if he didn't follow the mastermind's commands, his wife would be in grave danger. The real mastermind also participates in the game because he was planning to die in the climax of his masterpiece. (even if he ended up injured in the hospital). The real mastermind is revealed to be nothing but Hifdzi Khoir, who is in fact revealed as a son of Finto Rizmi after Raditya Dika accompanies him to the airport. This is due to the fact that Dika saw a ticket with a name "Hifdzi Rizmi" on his car seat. He was also the one who pushed one of the contestants to her death even though she was supposed to be electrocuted after defying the mastermind. And needless to say, At the end of the movie, Hifdzi gets away with everything by going to Yogyakarta to visit some relatives by an airplane.
Is He Charming,Charismatic,Thinks on her Feet?
Well, here's the thing about Hifdzi. He is mostly portrayed as comic-relief and a Butt-Monkey during the film and he's not that charismatic. Even then, he does a great job of obfuscating his own stupidity and near the end of the film, he is revealed as a great master planner and a cunning killer disguised as Raditya Dika's best friend. Him intending to save Raditya Dika and Cinta Laura from the grandmaster who tries to bomb the entire building, was actually his plan! So yeah, despite the lack of charismatic skills and him being played as a joke most of the time. He actually is one of the greatest examples of a guy who obfuscates his stupidity and at the end of the day, he is a great master planner and is able to deceive people.
Is He a Bastard? Too Much?
Oh yes he is! Hifdzi is the one who is behind all the misery that the main characters have to endure and also commits crimes like blackmailing someone to pretend to be a mastermind by kidnapping his wife, pretending that the shock collar electrocutes him and when one of the contestant defies the mastermind's orders, he then pushes her into the elevator shaft.
That being said, his crime isn't crossing into revolting territory and he does have a humanizing moment...He cares for his late father and tries to make him proud by making this movie as a present for him. I mean, the father does have a Freudian Excuse by committing suicide by burning himself after the producers didn't accept his idea because he was in a struggle to pay his debts. And he also detest the modern movie studios that always faking their own movies and Hifdzi tries to prove that his masterpiece is a real deal. So yeah...I think Hifdzi passes here.
Final Verdict
He's a keeper in my opinion. As far as the movie goes, yes it's a comedy most of the time. But when it decides to get serious, it does get serious on the plot. So yeah. I'll leave it to you guys as always.
P.S. Indonesian movies really needs more love.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 10th 2018 at 9:14:58 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Goku Black
Mastermind
From Life Is Strange
- Magnificent Bastard: Mark Jefferson. Using his Cool Teacher facade to get close to his targets and taking advantage of Nathan's mental issues to help and cover up his crimes are enough for him to get qualified for this trope.
Uh too gross for this. He's more of a Love to Hate kinda villain rather than a Magnificent Bastard. Permission to cut ?
Edited by miraculous on Jul 10th 2018 at 4:58:02 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
V
I agree that Mark is all the too disgusting to be considered this trope.
I'm gonna give a 'yes' to Mastermind and Dudley. L.A. Confidential is one hell of a good film.
Edited by MenInGreyToBlak on Jul 10th 2018 at 4:02:15 PM
Yes to the above. Hell no to Jefferson. Cut and burn that.
And also:
- V For Vendetta: the titular V is a masked revolutionary dedicating to crafting 'The Land of doing As You Please' from the fascist hellhole Britain has become. Destroying Parliament, V later seizes control of the broadcasting center of London to inform the country of his intentions and escapes by having the station head dressed up as him and used as a decoy. Slowly eliminating all of those at the Larkhill Concentration Camp who could have identified him, V is revealed to be manipulating almost everyone else, hacking into Britain's dictator, Adam Susan's supercomputer and guiding a widow of a man he'd killed to eliminate Susan. V proceeds to force Evey Hamilton into being his successor by forcing her to accept her true self under torture, and later even works his own death into his plans to convince Evey to become his successor and tear down the established order.
- LA confidential: Captain Dudley Smith is is a charming, witty corrupt police officer who tries to get control of all criminal activity in Los Angeles after the fall of gangster Mickey Cohen leaves a power vacuum behind. He chases away or kills off all criminal opposition in the city. When officer Dick Stensland and private bodyguard Buzz Meeks try to get more out of a major heroin deal they made with him he kills both of them, one in a diner massacre that leaves a dozen innocent people dead. He frames a trio of rapist criminals for the massacre, and orders them killed during the arrest by his associates to make sure they won't talk. After manipulating the entire department, he later begins eliminating loose ends and even sets up his young rival Edmund Exley sleeping with his muscle Bud White's girlfriend to trick Bud into killing Edmund to get rid of them both. Coming within an inch of victory, Dudley embodies both the charm and corruption that a police badge can conceal.
- Sympathy for Lady Vengeance: Lee Geum-ja once took the fall for murder for her older lover Mr. Baek, who threatened to murder her daughter if she refused. Geum-ja spends over a decade in prison, cultivating a reputation as a kind-hearted saint who does favors for everyone, even giving a kidney for a woman who needs an operation. Geum-ja also poisons the rapist prison bully, and upon being released sets about getting revenge on Baek. Calling on all her favors and finding her daughter, she manipulates Baek to his capture and discovers he is a serial child killer. To deal with him, she allows the parents of his victims to torture him to death, and insure equal complicity so that none of them will talk without implication themselves.
- Lone Wolf and Cub:
- Series Anti-Hero Ogami Itto is a stoic, charismatic warrior unjustly framed by the Yagyu clan. On the run with his three year old son Daigoro, Itto constantly showcases his strategic genius in his assassinations. In one instance, he allows himself to be captured by the enemy to get close to a target, revealing that the warning they received was written by him. In another, he uses Daigoro drowning as bait to trick a target's bodyguard into trying to save him so Itto can kill him. Itto singlehandedly brings down the powerful Yagyu clan on his own, showing why he is a man who walks the road of demons, the Path of Meifumado.
- The series Big Bad Yagyu Retsudo is a charismatic old man with the soul of a samurai that contrasts with the hard ruthlessness of an assassin. After the Yagyu lose the post of Shogun executioner to Itto, Retsudo uses a seemingly innocuous sparring match to trick Itto into knocking his staff into a man who could pose a threat to him, leading to the man's death. Later framing Itto for treason, Retsudo is revealed to be manipulating the entire Shogunate from the shadows and even when exposed for this, manages to connive his way back to power, having his rival the poisoner Abe no Kaii eliminated by setting a fire on a date that will force Kaii to commit seppuku. Retsudo then uses a legion of ninja to face Itto, having them focus on breaking Itto's infamous sword, so he has the advantage for their final battle. A ruthless genius, Retsudo continuously shows why he is Itto's greatest enemy.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 10th 2018 at 7:11:19 AM
Yes to Stragen and Hifdzi. As for Gordo? Trust me, I would love to find a reason to downvote a character who antagonizes anyone played by my boy Jason Bateman but I'm just not seeing it (sadly).
Also going to follow up the motion to blow Jefferson the fuck out of the sky. He's largely considered a creepy villain and even if (IIRC) doesn't actually rape anyone is such a creepy, sadistic fuck it doesn't save him.
Anyways, with only Ambar stilling noodling on this one and (I think) everyone who wanted to vote having voted, here's Vincent:
- Collateral: The enigmatic, philosophical Villain Protagonist "Vincent" is a ruthless yet suave Professional Killer tasked with eliminating witnesses to the crimes of drug lord Felix Reyes-Torrena. Bribing taxi driver Max Durocher to unwittingly assist him, Vincent has Max transport him while he murders his targets. Genuinely affable, Vincent respectfully listens to the story of a jazz club owner before offing him and visits Max's sick mother in the hospital, even bringing her flowers. Adapting when Max destroys the files on his targets, Vincent has Max retrieve a new copy from Felix, both keeping his anonymity and leading the police to mistakenly believe Max is him. Fatally wounded by Max while hunting his last target, Vincent chooses to calmly accept his fate, giving Max some parting words before passing.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 10th 2018 at 11:28:09 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Oh! And a yes to Stragen. And GDI!!! that page lock bug appears again on MB drafts.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 10th 2018 at 9:48:45 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I think I am going to give Vincent a "no" vote (not that it really matters at this point). The film makes enough of an issue of his missing some of the requirements that I don't feel he should be considered an example.
I'll add my voice to those saying Jefferson should be cut.
I'll wait for a couple more votes on Stragen before I put up a write-up for him. Also, something I didn't go into detail on in the write-up? The thieves of Tamul proper are organized into a highly inefficient guild system. The thieves don' talk to the murderers, the beggars don't talk to the prostitutes (save in the line of business), and nobody (for some reason) talks to the swindlers. Stragen needs to fix this if they're going to be effective as an intelligence network, so he has the murderers kidnap the heads of the other guilds and bring them in front of the Tamul Emperor who orders them to become more effective criminals by working together.
He's also the source of one of my favourite exchanges in the series:
Aphrael (goddess of Styricum): How deeply attached are you to your Elene God, Stragen?
Stragen: I'm an agnostic, Divine One.
Vanion: Would you like to examine that last sentence for logical consistency, Stragen?
Stragen: Consistency's the mark of a little mind, my Lord.
Edited by AmbarSonofDeshar on Jul 10th 2018 at 9:02:30 AM
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Khoir there, and same to Dudley, great villain from a great film. Now, I've got another candidate for us today....from an action film, here, one staring eeeeveryone's favorite action star, AHNOLD himself!
What's the work?
Last Action Hero is a 1993 action-comedy flick directed by John McTiernan of Die Hard fame, and is (IMO) a criminally underrated action movie.
Our story follows Danny Madigan, a young boy with a love for action movies, with his favorite being Jack Slater, a film series starring Arnold Schwarzenegger as the titular action hero. One day, Danny stumbles across a magic ticket that, at random intervals, grants the wielder the power to travel into movies.
And so, as Danny falls into the Jack Slater films and meets up with Slater himself, he begins working to both get home and assist the man in defeating the mob boss Tony Vivaldi.
Unfortunately, Vivaldi is your everyday generic action movie villain...his top HENCHMAN (Or lackey) meanwhile...
Who is Benedict? What makes him a candidate?
Benedict, played masterfully by Tywin freaking Lannister himself (That's Charles Dance to all you plebs), is a suave, charming assassin with a damn snazzy suit, a hilarious deadpan snark, and an assortment of glass eyes capable of various abilities (Helping him aim impeccably; One is a mini grenade he can always have on hand, etc)
Vivaldi's top enforcer—not to the extent of henchman, of course ("I'm afraid I only go as far as 'lackey'")—Benedict spends most of his time under Vivaldi being the brains of the two while snarking about what an idiot Vivaldi is, nicknaming him a "Sicilian schmuck."
When Jack Slater and Danny show up at Vivaldi's mansion, Benedict scares them off with several trained attack dogs ("I snap my fingers and tomorrow you emerge from several canine rectum"), however he overhears Danny informing Jack about Benedict's glass eye and even how he refers to Vivaldi as a "Sicilian Schmuck," thus cluing him in that SOMETHING is up.
Tracking Danny to Jack's house, Benedict takes the boy and Jack's daughter Whitney as hostages, confronting Danny and stealing his wallet to see who he is...before finding the magic ticket.
Before he can question the boy about things, proclaiming he has killed people "a lot smarter and a lot younger" than him, Jack shows up, and though Benedict nearly kills the man with a throwing knife, Danny suddenly tackling him thwarts this, and as Benedict realizes his forces are being overwhelmed, he sics the last of his men on Jack and quickly makes his exit, realizing he's losing and best option is to flee.
Making plans with Vivaldi to wipe out a rival mob's entire family of dozens of men, women, and children by setting off an explosive gas at a funeral they are all attending, Benedict learns Jack has thwarted these plans....right around the time he realizes what the magic ticket does.
Betraying and murdering Vivaldi while finally calling him out on his idiocy, Benedict uses the ticket to start breaking the fourth wall, informing the audience of his initial plans to use the ticket to travel to other dimensions and steal from them then pop back into his own, boasting "If God was a villain...he'd be ME."
Confronted by Jack, Benedict flees using the ticket...and finds himself in the real world, specifically New York City.
Wandering around his surroundings in initial confusion, Benedict sees things that surprise and shock him....a YOUNG prostitute approaches him on the streets, to which he disgustedly asks "''How old are you?!" before she leaves....he then sees several thugs kill a man for his shoes, shocking Benedict with the display of violence for such a petty matter.
However...as Benedict then notices? That man was murdered screaming...and no one is freaking out. No one is screaming bloody murder, no cops are coming. Deciding to test a little theory he's concocted, Benedict strolls up to a mechanic.
Benedict: "Excuse me! I am sorry to bother you. Would you help me test a theory?"
Mechanic: " Sure. What can I do for you?"
Benedict: "Wellllll..." Shoots him
Standing a moment at the man's corpse, Benedict fires the gun twice more....then shouts "Hello! I have just shot somebody, and I did it on purpose!..........I SAID: I have murdered a man and I want to confess!!!"
Getting no response but a callous "hey shut up" from an annoyed passerby, Benedict gleefully smiles...as he realizes exactly what kind of world he's in, and how it's FAR different from that of an action film.
Next using the ticket and pulling the serial killer known as "the Ripper" out of the Jack Slater film series, Benedict gives him a mission...to kill the ACTUAL Arnold Schwarzenegger, knowing that without Arnold, Jack Slater will cease to exist as well (Yes this is ridiculous and over the top and yes it is balls to the walls awesome)
As Jack and Danny confront and stop the Ripper from killing Arnold at a red carpet premiere of the latest Jack Slater film, Benedict confronts the duo, cornering and forcing them into covering while firing at them with his pistol. He then gets a truly awesome monologue...
"(Mockingly) Gentlemen, since you're about to die anyway, I may as well tell you the entire plot! (Serious again) Think of villains, Jack. You want Dracula? Hang on. I'll fetch him. Dracula? Heh, I can get KING KONG! We'll have a nightmare with Freddy Krueger! Have a surprise party for Adolf Hitler! Hannibal Lecter can do the catering, and then we'll all have a christening for Rosemary's baby! All I have to do is snap my fingers and they'll be here! They're lining up to get here, and do you know why, Jack?! Shall I tell you why?! Because here, in THIS world, the bad guys can win!"
Finishing up his monologue, Benedict fires again....only for his revolver to click empty. Jack laughs and strolls out of hiding, stating "Boy did you make a movie mistake! You forgot to reload the damn gun!"
To which...in one of my FAVORITE moments of Dangerously Genre-Savvy in film...Benedict smiles and proclaims "No, Jack...I just left one chamber empty."
Firing his final bullet into Jack's chest, mortally wounding the man, Benedict smacks Danny to the floor, where the boy screams and cries that Benedict broke his arm. Stepping over to Jack, Benedict loads his gun, proclaiming "See, Jack? The bad guys CAN win." before taking aim to end him...just in time for Danny to tackle him from behind, having faked the seriousness of Benedict's strike.
His gun dropped, Benedict tries to strangle Jack to death, before being smacked away by the man's greater strength. Pulling a throwing knife, he prepared to end Jack, only for the man to grab Benedict's dropped gun, and though Benedict pulls the ticket and tries to flee into another dimension....but, like I said earlier? The ticket works at random intervals. And this...isn't one of those times.
Barely having time to acknowledge the ticket has screwed him over, Benedict is shot by Jack directly in his explosive glass eye, blowing him to smithereens as Ahnold proclaims "No sequel for you."
Is Benedict a Chessmaster? Manipulative Bastard? Capable of Xanatos Speed Chess?
Benedict is the smartest character in the film, bar none. He keeps Vivaldi from completely bungling everything, deduces that Danny has some form of unnatural abilities to be able to have heard Benedict's quiet thoughts, and regularly thinks on his feet.
Of note here is how Dangerously Genre-Savvy Benedict is. Even when still in the Jack Slater film, Benedict KNOWS he's an overqualified Dragon-in-Chief and merely works for Vivaldi as a convenience, and once he's out in the real world, he realizes how apathetic people are and how he'll be able to get away with....a LOT more than he ever could in his films.
He also, again, has one of the simplest yet smartest moments of Genre Savvy I've seen in film when he leaves one chamber of his revolver empty to trick Jack into coming out of cover to rush him, only to shoot him down upon revealing it wasn't actually empty.
How much of a Bastard is he? Is he charming both in-universe and out? Does he have any positive features about him worthy of respect?
Benedict is a vile customer, he is heavily implied to have tortured a man to death in the beginning of the Jack Slater film, he orders Jack's teenage daughter be beaten (Even though she instantly beats her attackers back due to being tough and trained in fighting herself), regularly tries to kill Danny while remarking he's killed children younger than him, tries to murder an entire funeral of people, and ultimately plans to unleash countless movie villains onto the real world just so he can show the bad guys can win.
Even with this in mind...Benedict shows disgust at a teenage prostitute propositioning him as well as shock at a man being murdered for his shoes, being a far more sophisticated individual than to approve of such petty crimes. He's a calm, suave operator who almost never loses his cool, and comes consistently close to winning several times over, with his only real failure being not knowing the ticket works at random and that Danny was apparently good at faking that he was seriously injured (Which lets be honest ya can't fault him for, kids are damn good at fake crying about how badly they're hurt! XD).
Final Verdict?
I think, for an action-comedy with parodic leanings, Benedict makes it due to being an intelligent, charming Dangerously Genre-Savvy baddie who rarely loses his cool and who nearly wins with a really damn smart gamble with his revolver.
Arguments are welcome as always, of course, so begin!
Edited by Ravok on Jul 10th 2018 at 3:40:08 PM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Easy yea for Benedict.
Stragen, Mastermind, Benedict.
Just leaning yea on Dudley, some of the Timeline 191 villains were willing to manipulate the opinions of racist while not holding prejudices themselves and the bulk of his victims being criminals makes me feel Dudley, callous as hell or not, just jumps the line to make an overlap.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 9th 2018 at 11:15:30 AM