During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Lizzid people!
Not voting, but I agree the South Park-related subjects should be put to an end.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Leslie. Damn, there really is no way for a South Park character to qualify even in fanfic. Oh well, nothing we can do about that.
I had an idea for a proposal. Then I forgot what it was. Rip me.
Shit I hate that dude.
The Draftsman of Doom
"Press 'F' to pay respects."
I'm also in favour of a kibosh on anything further relating to South Park.
Rawr.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I was just gonna say sense I had the rwby manga reserved here as well...
Roman dosent count, he's made an Adaptational Badass and such...but as you probably guessed from the stuff on the CM thread? Beneath that Rogueish charm he's presented a sadistic Prick, and he's both Outsmarted by Oobleck and starts flipping out when it happens....this creepy friggin scene(https://mightyjensblog.tumblr.com/post/618958764195872768/its-as-if-the-manga-author-went-huh-hes-based) does....not help(Especially as 'He was just gonna have that 15 year old tortured' is the favourable interpretation)
Honeslty....Cinder might count? None of her really nasty stuff is gonna be adapted, if it ever was(They took a few noticeable liberties with the story and may have continued to do so as it went on) and there's one or 2 things that make her come off as...different then the show....PM me if you wanna talk more there and it's one I'm gonna sleep on.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
If it's just an adaptation of the show until it got cut off my concern about listing Cinder would be that it's just a work that got axed early and she'd only technically count in the vacuum because we didn't learn she was just enacting Salem's plan. Kinda like when anime don't go as far as a manga which reveals someone with the crimes of a Complete Monster also gains redeeming qualities.
I'm willing to hear a case for Manga!Cinder
The idea that Cinder comes closer than Roman to MB territory is comical to me, but having talked it over a bit with Kylo a while back, I think they might be onto something. While I understand the concerns about it cutting off, I'm not sure the "only works due to omission" thing works here, seeing as she seems to have some differences to canon Cinder as well.
Edit: Never mind.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jun 23rd 2020 at 9:01:31 AM
If it's a complete rewrite of the character I'm down... just not if they left it with every indication being she's just carrying out Salem's plan and only turned down her sadism.
Okay, so it appears that Leslie doesn't make the cut, which is fairly okay, though I have to say that we are getting a bit too bias on works based off of South Park, despite having gotten candidates from comedies and shows similar to South Park such as Archer, The Boondocks, The Simpsons, Venture Bros etc. I mean there was that reporter from the "Black Friday" trilogy that I was considering to EP but decided against it simply because of the backlash that I would get for posting a character from South Park and it seems that I get just as much backlash posting characters from fan works based off of show despite having gotten Bebe Stevens from that SP fan fic Girls Game approved and people didn't mind seeing her go up (her MB entry is right here).
I also want to mention I do want to get one point straight, I'm not trying to deliberately find characters from South Park fan fics to get up, I'm simply read them because I enjoy them and keep my mind busy until the next season of the show premieres and if I happen to stumble upon someone that could count I just EP them like all my other candidates from other work and wait to see what everyone thinks. That's what I did with Leslie where I written a long neutral EP of over 1600 words and even posted the links to her two breakdowns.
Obviously, the only way people would not mind for a character from a SP fan fic to go up is if the work takes place in an Alternate Universe whose settings and tone are completely divorced from the show and the only similarities are the characters names (for example if the fic takes place in World War II where the boys are aged up of adults and are sent to Europe to fight the Nazis). So until something like that happens I can stop posting anyone from South Park since its obvious it brings a lot of backlash but, what happens if another troper besides me comes by an EP a character from a fan fic based off of South Park? I mean if you really want to prevent SP characters from showing up I would suggest to could make a Never Again List and put South Park under there along with other characters and shows that keep popping up
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 23rd 2020 at 8:08:08 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
I have to agree with 43. If Cinder is being taken in a new direction, I'll hear it out.
Rawr.
Just exercise discretion man. The comedy comparisons you just tried to draw, so that's not going to work. Likewise, my issue isn't because I'm on a rampage to purge this site of everything South Park-related, it's because 100% of the time you bring it up the talks never go smoothly. Also please stop citing that one fic you got a character up from, it anything it makes me raise an eyebrow and worry about the fact that I don't think anyone else has read it. I don't think we need a Never Again list because the understanding is generally held that it doesn't merit much discussion here: I don't mean to say this as an insult but only you keep finding either South Park characters or fan fic versions to put up. The characters you mused over and decided not to post were done so because I and other tropers explained why it wouldn't be a good idea for the thread, not "backlash" you'd receive for posting them: don't misrepresent what happened.
Lizzid people!
The problem is everything in SP is played up as a joke where virtually nearly every antagonist featured either are played as total jokes, or they have blatant issues. We have VB, yes, but that isn't being "biased" as at the least the show does have actual story, character development, serious moments, etc.
The wifi here sucks
I don't have an opinion on South Park or the Fanfics you've proposed from but honestly I feel like it would be easier to just not bring up anything SP here. It keeps causing problems and this last EP tells me that people are so averse to seeing anything related to it here that they won't even vote on it. Most people just seem sick of seeing SP on this thread to the point where they'll just abstain on an EP from an SP fic since SP has caused so many problems here. I legitimately just recommend not bringing it up here anymore.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Or at least getting a second opinion before you make an EP.
If you guys don't mind discussing something else briefly, I wanted to ask about the minimum requirements to be considered a bastard, as the entry under Looney Tunes struck me as odd.
- Magnificent Bastard: Cecil Turtle is a seemingly timid tortoise who has the unique distinction of being the only character to have defeated Bugs Bunny on a consistent basis. Having been challenged to a race on three separate occasions, Cecil was able to outsmart Bugs every single time. In Tortoise Beats Hare, Cecil recruits the help of his identical-looking cousins to fool Bugs into thinking that he was in the lead throughout the race. He managed to sneak past the finish line and forced Bugs to fork over the ten bucks he wagered on their match. In Tortoise Wins by a Hare, Bugs challenged Cecil to a rematch, and he convinced Bugs that his shell was the key to his superior speed. Bugs dresses up as a turtle in order to beat Cecil, but is targeted by the rabbit mob who bet all their money for the rabbit to win. Cecil disguises himself as a rabbit and tricks the mob into helping him win the race. In Rabbit Transit, Cecil uses a jet engine hidden beneath his shell to gain the lead during their race. Bugs manages to cross the finish line first, but Cecil gets him to admit that he was going over the speed limit and has him arrested for speeding. With a perfect track record, Cecil is Bugs' only foe who could beat him at his own game.
Looking at this and back at the initial effort post on page 279 makes it seem like the worst Cecil does is cheat in races against Bugs, who also cheats in said races. I saw that nobody had any issue with him before as he was cunning and charismatic, but his bastardrt boils down to cheating a cheater. Just a little while back, many people seemed uncomfortable upvoting Kotoko from In/Spectre for mainly lying and decided in her favor when it was pointed out people got hurt from her lies, but Cecil doesn't really hurt anyone at all other than getting Bugs arrested for speeding at worst. This just makes me very curious about the minimum bastard "standard."
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
As the one who EP Cecil, he's admittedly not the most antagonistic of characters. Bugs is clearly the aggressor in all three shorts. But Cecil does resort to dirty tactics when the situation calls for it. He cheats to gain his victories and knows how to push Bugs buttons just to piss him off. Since Bugs typically tends to be the hero, Cecil stands out compared to most of the other foes Bugs has face who are usually brash and stupid.
I did EP Cecil because I found an unapproved entry for him and thought he was worth a look into. I don't think I left anything important out in my initial EP, so I'll let the thread decide if he counts or not. If people think he's not enough of a bastard, feel free to cut him.
One I've been meaning for:
What's the work?
Watchmen is an updated series from 2019, a sequel to the comic Watchmen, set years later....34 years after the original Watchmen...a white nationalist cavalry basing itself on Rorschach, with Angela Abar, a cop getting caught in a set of interlocking conspiracies that involve Dr. Manhattan. Let's talk our villain: Lady Trieu
Who is Lady Trieu?
The daughter of Adrian "Ozymandias" Veidt and a woman named Bian My...who worked as Veidt's cleaning woman and stole a sperm sample to impregnate herself. Trieu was a prodigy from the start, graduating MIT at 15, purchasing it at 19. She became a trillionaire, revolutionizing multiple fields. She later tracked down her father and requested he help her build a device to harvest the power of Dr. Manhattan to achieve permanent world peace, unless the temporary peace Veidt gave. ...Veidt is furious, revealing he inherited a huge fortune from his parents, gave it away and built who he was from nothing. That is what he offers Trieu and promises he will never call her his daughter.
Researching Manhattan, Trieu mass-produces synthetic lithium that builds the “Eye over Mars” that displays video images of Manhattan building and collapsing ornate sandcastles on the surface of the red planet and proves Manhattan giving people cancer is a hoax. She later realizes he's on Europa and sets up a way for Veidt to return to Earth from the same place. Later learning of Manhattan's human identity, she learns of the Seventh Kavalry with designs on Manhattan and sets her plots into motion.
Trieu introduces herself to a childless couple who are close to a cosmic event, as she needs the house. She informs them she'll buy their house...by giving them a baby she's already had made for them, with the wife's effs and his sperm, that they gave to a fertility clinic. When she says if they refuse she'll kill the baby, she laughs and says she's kidding, that she'll give him to a loving home...they accept and Trieu?
Trieu manipulates the Seventh Kavalry completely. She sets them up to capture Manhattan, manipulating all their plans, to bring them together and leave Manhattan for her, also having everyone there to see her kill Manhattan and turn his powers against the Kavalry leaders and KKK....vaporizing them and preparing an ascent to godhood with Manhattan's power. Only Ozymandias's quick thinking results in her plans destroyed and the centrifuges falling on top of her, with her final word being "...motherfucker."
How's she operate?
Trieu is a genius, and the daughter of Ozymandias. In fact, she may even be smarter than he is. She builds herself from nothing with intellect and pure skil, manipulates the Seventh Kavalary and everyone else
The only flaws she has are a measure of narcissism, and her desire to prove herself to Ozymandias. She rescues from Europa to make him watch her ascend to godhood so he can see he was wrong about her. The only other mistake she makes is when she kills Senator Keene, leader of the Kavalry, she shows off his liquified corpse...which lets Manhattan teleport others away, including Ozymandias. It's a minor slip after really impressive plotting, though.
But overall? Trieu is impressive as hell. The Kavalry dances to her tune while never truly knowing how and why...put it this way: she orchestrates the defeat and death of the god of the Watchmen-verse, something not even Veidt could achieve.
Is she a bastard?
Trieu is ruthless, cold, manipulative...but she has limits. Now, the Kavalary are like the KKK, but while Trieu is a narcissist who aspires to godhood, which Ozymandias notes as genuine hubris...her goals? World peace. She's a Well-Intentioned Extremist who truly aspires to forcing it permanently...just in pure order with no free will. But she has little moments of Pet the Dog, like when she makes clear if the parents in the first scene refuse her deal, she'll kill their baby? She's just kidding and she'll send it to a loving home. She's disgusted by the Seventh Kavalry and delights in killing them...and she's legit upset Angela is present for Manhattan's death as she didn't want her to see her husband killed.
conclusion?
I'd give Trieu a yes.
Goku Black
I'm fine with cecil staying. The work is pretty light hearted and he's not treated as a good guy in it.
Like I'm willing to give the Bastard part some slack in kids works like this compared to more adult ones. At long as it's still their obviously even if it's a small amount.
Edited by miraculous on Jun 23rd 2020 at 10:44:15 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Trieu. Damn, I should watch this show. She sounds like a rightful successor to the legacy of dear old dad.
Trieu. A worthy successor to good old Ozymandias.
Goku Black
Trieu
to Trieu. The apple obviously didn't fall far from the tree.
Yup that's a no from me.
Edit: To further sky's point she's described as "kicking and screaming" while being dragged away by her mother.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 23rd 2020 at 11:12:15 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid