During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
We've got a thread for that bro.
So, sorry to interrupt this conversation on Alejandro, but we have Relius Clover from BlazBlue listed, and I believe I may have been around for that debate. G-Editor proposed him right here, and I think we ought to look him over again after getting into BlazBlue rather recently. While G acknowledged that Clover's a serious bastard, and justifiably talked about how badass and intelligent Clover is (Which is completely accurate, as he outplays everyone and gets away scot-free at the end of Central Fiction) but does have good goals, there's a few notes about Relius that give me pause, particularly:
- Relius doesn't just experiment on his wife and daughter, he murders them and turns them into killing machines, not even finishing work on his daughter and instead leaving her for his son to complete. Now, we've had candidates who have killed their own children up before (Settra the Imperishable) but For Science! strikes me as a very petty reason in comparison. (Settra sacrifices his sons to save his people, which works.)
- Relius has Astral Finish moves that give me pause. He has a few scenes in the series that invoke rape imagery, but he's never a rapist proper onscreen. That said, the imagery of his Astral Finish is pretty blunt, and the fact it cuts away before he does whatever he does and only gives his victims' screams is very, very off-putting for me. It doesn't strike me as in-character for him to literally rape them, his lines also don't exactly help his case there, particularly his declaration to his own son Carl that "You've been a very naughty boy." Again, I doubt he's literally raping them, but the imagery is invoked hard enough to bring me discomfort.
- Despite mainly just having a Lack of Empathy, Clover does have moments of extreme sadism. His Astral Finish is implied to be pretty sadistic as I noted, he murdered his own family and turned them into machines, and in Makoto's Bad Ending in one of the games, he delivers a brutal Mind Rape to her after using Ignis to hold her down. While there are cases like Bondrewd the Novel who have done similar things to Relius, Bondrewd operates on Blue-and-Orange Morality, genuinely not understanding what he's doing is wrong, whereas Relius knows quite consciously he's a sick bastard and just completely lacks any remorse or empathy. Don't get me wrong, he's not nearly the Kick the Dog festival that is Hazama/Terumi, but Relius seems to have a rather nasty sadistic streak.
- Relius's ultimate goal is essentially to kill everyone and remake the world in his "perfect" image with only his Dolls, which doesn't really strike me as a solid enough bit of reasoning to do a lot of this stuff. While it's certainly a grandiose goal, it's completely driven by his perfectionist nature and personal desires. Unlike a lot of candidates who have done similarly evil things, Relius has nothing even resembling redeeming qualities that justify his actions.
Now, I could certainly be wrong. I only just got into BlazBlue, and perhaps none of this stuff is too far beyond the pale for him to keep. It just strikes me that some of his nastier qualities were a bit glossed over in the EP and he was kind of downplayed at the time by discussion of the Draculas from Castlevania and Raul Menendez. I'm not saying he's a total non-keeper, hell, he could very well be a keeper, but I just thought we ought to bring this up.
I'm legitimately sorry if everyone already knew this and I wasted your time. I just searched through the tiny amount of discourse on him and saw none of this mentioned, and unless I seriously missed a spot and we did discuss this, I thought this should be brought up.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Apr 26th 2020 at 7:46:58 AM
I was somewhat opposed to Relius too having played most of Blaz Blue, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be a Bastard if he didn't have just a little bit of sadism or dark qualities. The astral finish is simply him experimenting on people and the mind rape isn't actual rape. We've discussed him in detail before.
TBH, I'm....a bit concerned about Relius now
IIRC G was backed by people who had played the games feeling he was charming and epic enough in his villainy to get a pass but on a second glance, the Mind Rape...
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Can you link me to that discussion? I may have missed it, in which case I'm sincerely sorry.
Edit: Here, for the record, is a compilation of his Astral Finishes on all characters. Some of the imagery does not make me comfortable, even if he's just experimenting on them. (Some of it borders on NSFW, bear in mind.) The idea that he's got "cold pragmatism only" doesn't hold together after you watch some of these.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Apr 26th 2020 at 7:22:04 AM
So Klavice are you keep or cut on Alejandro? Just asking.
Yeah I think we went over Relius on this several and we've concluded that there is no sexual undertones in Relius actions. I'm if you compared him to say like Terumi, I'd say that Relius is pretty tame
Here the link to my EP of Relius though you seem to already have that in your post.
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 26th 2020 at 4:24:58 AM
Can you link me to that, please? I haven't found any of it.
Edit: I mean, yeah, comparing him to Hazama/Terumi, he's not that bad, but that's not exactly a high bar.
Edit 2: Indeed, I do. That's some of the only discussion I saw on him and there's hardly anything about his incredible sadism or the undertones to his actions.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Apr 26th 2020 at 7:28:35 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Most of that(Wanting to replace humanity with his dolls do to his perfectionism) I don't quite see an issue with personally. As while it's evil as hell not quite revolting. And For Science! isn't something I would call a PETTY reason per se, not justified, and not a sympathetic motive. But still not quite "petty". Like say, killing someone for sassing you or something like that.
but those Mind Rape bits? could use a bit more talk if it hasn't been before.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
It's not even the Mind Rape that gets me so much as the rape imagery used in his Astral Finish and his cruelty. I put up the video compiling them, but there's definite imagery there in my opinion. Among other things, for those who don't want to watch it, he puts the characters in themed bondage-esque contraptions, including putting Noel (Edit: And some other female characters) nude in a machine. It's all a bit much for me. Again, it's probably not literal rape, but it's very definitely framed like it is.
Edit: We mentioned it offhandedly as far as I could tell, but all we received is that the fanbase "extrapolates" it where it isn't there, which just isn't true as far as I can tell.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Apr 26th 2020 at 7:33:38 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Yeah this really needs more discussion.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
No kidding.
He's, uh... got some pretty interesting finishers for women, there. Also sounds like they're making noises under the "Astral finish!" announcement voice which is... questionable.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 26th 2020 at 10:42:39 AM
Izayoi's version also has her in a contraption covered in hands, hands that don't exactly look necessary for the experiment.
Edit: Nine is also nude in a cauldron for hers. I don't see much room for doubt here, this very much concerns me. (How the hell did this game get a T rating?)
Edit 2: I'm calling for an immediate cut. Even if he's not raping them, he's definitely enjoying their vulnerability. (He had to have intentionally stripped them and put them in those bondage contraptions.) The imagery is practically undeniable to me.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Apr 26th 2020 at 7:44:20 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
I agree with cutting.
I feel like I'd like him more if he wasn't a Karma Houdini. At this point I'm even struggling to feel Love to Hate.
As for the "no sexual undertones"? There objectively are: he might not be a rapist, misogynist or sexual sadist but given this it becomes a Distinction Without a Difference imo.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 26th 2020 at 10:47:49 AM
The Unknown Unknown
Oh, we talking about Relius? Fear not, your resident BlazBlue expert is here.
First off, the Astral Finishes. All I can say is Gameplay and Story Segregation. BlazBlue is a heavy lore- and story-heavy fighting game, and Relius never demonstrates the kind of... requisite questionable traits in-story. Never, not once. And, as such, nothing like the stuff that's shown in his Astral Finishes is ever displayed in-story, which is where his MB credentials come up. Astral Finishes are either Rule of Cool or Artistic License befitting the whims of the producer. We got Kokonoe blowing up the Earth with a meteorite, Susanoo turning the world into a wasteland in a single sword strike, Makoto punching out the moon, Amane Nishiki (somehow) turning people into younger versions of themselves, and more... I'm not sure that should be held against Relius.
Second, the Mind Rape of Makoto. Like I said back then, there's zero sexual intention. He's quite literally trying to investigate the nature of Makoto's "strong soul." People like her intrigue Relius because he is a researcher and scientist first and foremost. It's relevant to his overarching goal. It requires such methods, so be it. He may have some sadistic tendencies, but he's also far likelier to just ignore or dispose something of little interest or gain to him.
Third, his final goal. Relius went a place in the world of BlazBlue where he got to see the very nature of the human soul and got disappointed. This is where he gets his desire to make a perfect world inhabited by his perfect dolls. He finds humans obsolete, but if there's someone exceptional (ex. Makoto, Noel, Bang), he'd like to know why for the sake of his goals and research. By any means necessary. It's not a Freudian Excuse, not even close, just a mere explanation.
Hope that makes sense.
Edited by erazor0707 on Apr 26th 2020 at 10:51:56 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
It makes sense, but I'm still calling for a cut. I said it doesn't feel in-character to me, but it still makes me far too uncomfortable to support keeping him.
Alright, taking both sides into account: I think I'm just going to abstain. On one hand, if there's nothing in the game's storyline making him out to be a rapist or the like, that's not an instant disqualifier but on the other hand, he's still nasty as hell and if he does stay, it'll be because his end goal is so grand and impersonal that it doesn't churn anyone's stomach. Between the lack of anything resembling a redeeming quality, his "turn everyone into dolls in mah 'perfect world'" plot and the nastiness of the mental torture he puts people through, even with the stoic stance he might take on it: altogether, I can't bring myself to put a yes down.
The other main reason I'd wanna see Relius go down is that while we've had other candidates up and he's certainly intelligent, most of those other candidates have redeeming qualities or Blue-and-Orange Morality, neither of which Relius has. He knows he's thoroughly evil with no redeeming features, and does his deeds anyways. I won't deny he's extremely theatrical and doesn't strike me as a rapist in the story, but between the fact he's still seriously evil and the Astral Finishes, I'm very much not comfortable keeping him up.
"[H]e murdered his own family and turned them into machines". Yeah, when it's not for a greater purpose beyond one invented in his own god complex, I can sympathize with that.
The Unknown Unknown
Fair points, Riley. I'm glad you brought 'em up nonetheless.
This discussion is yet another reason why CM-MB crossovers are so tricky to pinpoint.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
I find the MB criteria a lot stricter than CM criteria. Are we just cracking down on CM/MB crossovers now?
I'll vote a late yes on the Gundam and Loki images as well as Strange.
I honestly... don't understand how a humiliating defeat suddenly ruins a character from this trope who up to that point has been a master manipulator. It's one thing if they're dragged off to an insane asylum, or have a really bad Villainous Breakdown but Total Drama seems to thrive on all the villains go out in hilarious ways from what I've seen. Switch my no on Katya to an abstain. I hate to add more abstains to the pile but I'm certain she could go up provided someone uses Netflix or something to see her episodes. Though at the same time, someone (I believe it was Scraggle) DID see her episodes and remains a firm no.
I'm sure we have had more than enough villains who went up yet were humiliated, and still bounced back. I'd rather not bring up Alejandro again.
Edited by Klavice on Apr 26th 2020 at 6:44:01 AM