During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
No. He's too indecisive. He constantly shifts between wanting to cancel his experiments because the human cost is too high and continuing the experiments anyway because the scientific potential is too much to ignore. It makes him come off as rather pathetic.
There is a candidate from the books whom I think will be easily upvoted, but his arc hasn't concluded yet. There's only one more book to go and it will likely be released next year, so there's not too much to wait for that candidate though.
I'll give a yea to Errinwright, sounds like he grows into the trope as time goes on.
Also @ Future, I added and requested it 
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to Sadavir Errinwright.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Okay now that I found a potential candidate from the movie The Campaign.
What’s The Work?
The Campaign is a 2012 political satire comedy film where Cam Brady, who was about to run for Congressman for his district Hammond for his fifth term unopposed, faces his first opponent Marty Huggins whose backed by the Motch brothers. To make sure that Marty wins the titular campaign they hire this man to be Marty’s campaign manager, Tim Wattley
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Tim Wattley is in truth Leonidas Stavros, a criminal from Greece who committed acts of murder and terrorism who also had a talent in attracting women with his charm and also earn numerous titles for his crimes, including The Greek Butcher, The Greek Baker, The Greek Candlestick Maker, Dermont Mulroney, Osama Getting-Laiden.
Fleeing his country and becoming an international fugitive, he would soon be hired by corrupt businessmen Glenn and Wade Motch where they gave him a new alias Tim Wattley assign him as Marty Huggins’ campaign manager in their plan to use Marty as a puppet to have him sell Hammond to their Chinese business and turn it into a factory complex.
Once Tim becomes Marty’s campaign manager, Tim manipulates Marty into following every of Tim’s commands which works in Tim as he turns Marty from an incompetent oaf who was humiliated by Cam Brady in his first day into a ruthless and competent politician who can go toe to toe with Cam and humiliate him, while also racking up many votes that they eventually surpass Cam’s.
One perfect example of how much influence that he has on Marty is when he convinces Marty to report to the police that Cam is driving while he’s drunk when Cam comes to Marty’s home tries to make peace with him, thus humiliating Cam again.
However as Tim completely alters Marty's home and family life to appeal to voters, he also indirectly drives a rift between Marty and his wife, to where Tim persuades Marty to kick his wife out of his home when he learns that she was cheating on him, so Marty won’t look weak in front of people, while also convincing Marty to shoot Cam in the leg with a crossbow.
Things seem fine with Tim and Marty until the latter leaves Tim once he learns about the Motch brothers plans for Hammond and Tim’s involvement in it. This doesn’t shake Tim as he simply become Cam’s campaign manager instead and use all the tactics he used on Marty onto Cam to get back Cam’s loss reputation and surpass Marty in the number of votes.
Cam would eventually win the election, despite Marty’s efforts, mainly due to Tim’s influence on Cam’s campaign and the Motch brothers rigging the election. However Cam would withdraw when Marty tells them about Tim and his employers nefarious plans for Hammond thus making Marty Congressman of Hammond and foiling their plans once and for all.
Tim Wattley would soon escape and avoid capture but his identity as an international terrorist would be expose and used against the Motch Brothers due to their involvement with him, thus putting the Motch brothers in prison.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As an International criminal, Tim is very intelligent and charismatic always saying his trademark “I’m here to make you not suck”. He’s able to fake being an American so flawlessly that not even the audience doesn’t know he’s actually Greek until the very end and even the he finds a way to escape before he could be arrested, ending the movie as a Karma Houdini.
Also as Marty’s campaign manager he’s able to tell Marty what the people like in the their candidates and what they want to hear basically having Marty and all his voters dancing to his tune. The exact same thing happens when Tim becomes Cam’s campaign manager and it works perfectly, showing that not only is Tim is charismatic (being played by Dylan Mc Dermott certainly helps) but he’s able to think on the fly.
What’s The Competition Like?
Tim is by far the most cunning, charming, and devious character in the whole movie. There’s also his employers Wade and Glenn Motch who came up with the plan to sell Hammond to China for a profit and secured Cam’s role as Congressman, but two are portrayed as corrupt and smug sleezbags with zero charm who gets lock up in jail while Tim gets away scott-free.
There’s also Cam who can be charming, but suffers so much slapstick and humiliation that it just takes away from his magnificent. He’s also not very bright as he records an inappropriate voicemail to a wholesome family thinking it was his mistress, while later thinking that having sex with Marty’s wife and put the act on television was a good idea. Tim on the other hands suffers no slapstick or humiliation nor does he do anything stupid making his magnificence shine even brighter
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard
Okay so Tim Wattley is revealed to be an international criminal from Greece, is complicit to the Motch’s brother’s plan to turn Hammond into a company town, and corrupts the kind and innocent Marty Huggins to slander and humiliate Cam while making him more unscrupulous and cutthroat, only to abandon him for Cam when Marty learns about and goes against the Motch’s plans. So yeah Tim is a bastard.
That said Tim never does anything deplorable, petty, or sadistic onscreen with all his crimes as a international criminal being all Offscreen Villainy (it also helps that none of those crimes mentions rape or any other sexual crimes) and he’s never smug compared to his employers and he’s also far more likable than them. So yeah he’s not too much of a bastard to not qualify in my opinion
Final Verdict
I’ll leave that to you guys to decide!
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 28th 2019 at 10:22:29 PM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to Osama Getting-Laiden.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 29th 2019 at 10:26:48 AM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
The Draftsman of Doom
Fine with that one going up.
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
timmy
WRITE UP TIME
And I know it's tempting since The Last Remnant looks so much like FFXII, but DON'T put it in the Final Fantasy section!
- The Last Remnant: The Conqueror is a brutal, ruthless, godlike man whose strength is rivaled only by his keen strategic mind and whose presence is felt in every scene he's in. A Warden of the Remnants and a sort of Remnant himself, The Conqueror deceives Duke Wilfred Hermeien, manipulating him into thinking he's in control of The Conqueror while The Conqueror himself attacks various settlements and steals their Remnants. One notable conquest has him lead the armies of Athlum away from their city with his own troops so he could single handedly attack it, fighting and killing Emma Honeywell and stealing the Remnant Valeria Heart. Betraying Hermeien, he forces him to be a test subject by infusing him with power to see what would happen to the world if he released Remnants. Seeing that the result would be the death of humanity, The Conqueror sees this as a reasonable price to pay, believing that human exploitation of Remnants would destroy all of reality. Defeated by Rush Sykes' Heroic Sacrifice, the last we hear of The Conqueror is him speaking with Rush in post credit dialogue, affably asking him if he is going to return to the world. With an iron will and a cause he believes to be noble, The Conqueror is a simple yet electrifying antagonist.
I think I found some unapproved examples on YMMV.A Scotsman In Egypt:
- Magnificent Bastard: Aodh Canmore, full stop. Pick one of his plots, any of his plots. From destroying the Moors while Domnall is incapacitated to convincing Domnall to attack the Danes to convincing Hungary to invade and sack Rome and then retaking Rome and talking the Pope into surrendering control over all the Papal lands to Scotland to the entire false Downer Ending that leads to the simultaneous assassination of the entire Timurid leadership, Aodh Canmore is someone you do not want to try to out-fox.
- Fearghus Campbell and his successors in the Scottish Spy Network also serve as these. Even after two full generations of new Spymasters have replaced him, people all over the world still get the creeps when his name is mentioned.
- Gille Calline the Balleol deserves a mention too.
Though honestly, I think all three have a good chance of qualifying, especially Aodh. I'm thinking about EPing him, but he'd be the third "unscrupulous but patriotic schemer and strategist" in a row for me, so maybe I'll do someone else first. If anyone else wants to claim the other two — or any other character from the LP — that's fine by me.
As an aside, I considered EPing Skantarios as another possible Let's Play example, but I decided his religious intolerance was too severe to be brushed off as merely Deliberate Values Dissonance.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jul 29th 2019 at 10:36:22 AM
Errinwright draft
- The Expanse: While Sadavir Errinwright begins as a pawn for Mao, when Mao turns on him, Errinwright shows how skilleda manipulator he is. Errinwright assassinates Mao's Martian contact and starts a war between Earth and Mars to force Mao to work for him. Seeking to use Mao's protomolecule hybrid supersoldiers to give Earth the strength to conquer Mars and remain secure, Errinwright begins a campaign to undermine the Secretary General's anti-war speechwriter Anna, first convincing her that her actions allowed Mars to kill millions in South America and then altering a speech she wrote to call for the annexation of Mars. Errinwright is ultimateley undone when Avasarala accomplishes the almost-impossible task of obtaining a copy of a message between Errinwright and Mao and sends it to Anna. When Errinwright realizes that he's lost, he calmly admits to his crimes and remains dignified as security takes him away.
@43 I noticed your post with the batch didn't have Korshunov's entry in it, but he was added to the YMMV (I assume by the right person).
What did my post in the locked pages thread after say?
Aright here's Tim's write-up:
- The Campaign: Tim Wattley is an international criminal from Greece named Leonidas Stavros whose under the employment of Glenn and Wade Motch. Fully complicit in the Motch brothers plan to turn Hammond into a factory complex for their Chinese business partners, Tim would become Marty Huggins campaign manager to mold him into the Motch brothers puppet. Tim would completely reinvent Marty's character, home, and lifestyle making it more appealing to voters but also create a rift between Marty and is family. When Marty learns about the nefarious plans for Hammond and goes against them, Tim defects to Marty's rival Cam Brady and uses the same tactics to get Cam ahead of Marty in the votes. When Cam withdrawals from the election and helps Marty get rid of the corruption in Hammond Tim finds a way to escape justice, while the Motch brothers get arrested due to their association with him.
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 29th 2019 at 2:43:11 AM
Looks good all... has everyone added their stuff to the drafts?
Alright, I feel guilty about the fact that the few times I pop into this thread it's to contest or downvote an example, but I felt that I had to pop in and at least get a second opinion after Elfen Lied Fan 90 contacted me via PM and told me about a certain candidate who got voted up a while ago. It's Moira from Overwatch, with her effortpost being here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15255322860A44444400&page=234#comment-5834
Now as much as I like (Nah, more like love) Moira, I have a lot of issues with her qualifying. Not because she's too much of a bastard (Unless the theory about her torturing/brainwashing Widowmaker and forcing her to kill her own husband ends up being correct), it's because... well, she hasn't really done anything to warrant this status. Absolutely nothing. I guess it's her secretly joining and taking a leadership role in Talon that got her voted up here but we see nothing showing her clawing her way to the top, and we haven't seen her do anything particularly magnificent as a leader of Talon in what little modern day lore we've been exposed to aside from sitting around a table. I don't know if "offscreen magnificence" is a disqualifying factor or even a thing, but I think that warrants kicking her off the trope if nothing else.
Now this could change if the Overwatch team bothered doing something with the lore but since we've been stuck in the same place narrative-wise for over three years, Moira doesn't have any real feats of magnificence to her name and should be cut, IMO. And honestly, if anyone does count in this game, I'd say that the best potential candidates we have are Moira's fellow Talon alumni Sombra and Doomfist: the former being an elusive master hacker who effortlessly forces a powerful CEO to cater to her whims while also exposing at least one corrupt megacorp to the public (via her long, twisted ARG) while the latter had a comic dedicated to him flawlessly, smoothly disposing of money-hungry Talon leaders so he could dedicate the organization's goals solely to pursuing his well-intended Social Darwinist philosophy. Don't know if either of them will ultimately make the cut, but they certainly fit this trope better than Moira does.
As a fellow Overwatch-enjoying human creature, Imma agree with you here. TBH, I've been meaning to bring this one up but kept forgetting about it. You've said everything I would've said and frankly the majestic feats of intelligence from Doomfist and Sombra simply accentuate her lack of accomplishments. Cut Moira, I'll say.
Edited by DocSharp on Jul 29th 2019 at 10:04:40 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
With that new info (I upvoted back then because I didn't know Overwatch that much and even then, I originally had a bit of skepticism at first). Cut Moira. Though Sombra and Doomfist would be a rather interesting candidates to discuss.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
My knowledge of Overwatch is limited, so I'm not gonna vote for this one, but I'm leaning cut after reading Moira's EP.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 30th 2019 at 10:48:17 AM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
I'll take Fried's word for it and vote for a cut also I found this entry about Walter White on one of the recap pages:
- Magnificent Bastard: Walt puts to bed any claims that he is anything other than a terrifying, lucid criminal who twists and manipulates the truth to form around the greater lie that Hank is Heisenberg, having roped Walt into being his cook through repeated extortion and blackmail attempts and using his DEA contacts to set up the network. The (entirely true) fact that Walt reveals his use of drug money to pay Hank's medical bills is the rope that ties his otherwise baseless net of lies to reality, leaving Hank unable to come after him either by the book or through vigilante justice. Morton's Fork indeed.
I'm curious to about Walter White since by the time season 5 aired Walt seems to obtain just about all the requirements to become a Magnificent Bastard. Though I'm also curious to what others have to say about Walt?
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 30th 2019 at 12:05:12 AM
Cut Moira, I trust Fried here and I’m strongly against putting Walt up. I’ll hear it if someone wants but I can already tell you how I’m going to vote.
@Irrose: hey speaking of The Expanse any chance that Mao can qualify as a Magnificent Bastard?