During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Standalf
Oh btw are you getting to that Isekai example I recommended soon. Rather excited for that.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
No to friend. Yes to Standalf.
Yes to Standalf.
Joe x2, P-Diggity-Dog, Connie and Dynamite Bond are bingo. Also my phone’s spellcheck recognizes “diggity,” wild.
Showtime!
to Standalf
Yes to Standalf.
to Standalf
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to the friend
Here's P-Dog's write-up
- Mayor of Kingstown: P-Dog is a prisoner charged with attempted murder who would become the leader of the Crisps inside Kingstown prison. P-Dog would leverage a deal with the prison guards to arranged the child-murderer, Kenny Miles, to be killed on the condition that they lift the lockdown on them. Still suffering mistreatment from the prison guards, P-Dog would orchestrate a prison takeover by having his men give him a shiv to stab a guard before subduing the personnel transferring him, while free all the inmates from their cells and killing countless more guards. Holding the surviving guards hostage, P-Dog has them systematically killed until The National Guard shoots him, dying with content that he gets to go out on his own terms.
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
to Madame
Madamican Standalf.
Yes to Standailf and James Bond, no to Your Friend.
So it's been a while since Neo TWEWY has been out, do any of the Reapers count? I still need to finish that game.
Edited by Klavice on Jan 31st 2022 at 2:48:11 AM
She/Her
to Standailf and Bond
Bye
P-Dog, Connie, Bond, Standalf
Your Friend
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think an argument could be made for Susukichi. I also believe the former composer of Shinjuku might be worth a look.
Gotta love Jaws!
to James Bond and Standalf.
to Your Friend.
Cut the Heavy for now.
Bit late to the ban evader discussion, but I personally respectfully disagree with not redoing ban evader posts for the purposes of wanting to not reward them. I don't think that their wrongdoings should prevent us from doing their candidates legitmately as I feel it would be worse for them to be able to cause us to not do perfectly viable candidates. I feel stronger about this considering we have the backup of Riley, a highly trusted long term regular user of the thread for the Heavy. Just my opinion on that though.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
That's why on the last couple of pages I suggested a time limit moratorium. They should not be off limits to do, but maybe we should put on the backburner before doing them. As far as I can tell, Riley doesn't want to EP the Heavy, and we should not expect them to.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
It is wiki policy that we don’t keep any work made by ban evaders.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Yes, exactly.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jan 31st 2022 at 8:52:33 AM
Professor Gigachad
It is wiki policy to not use the exact entries ban evaders made but not to not add their examples at all, time limit or otherwise.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
My feeling is: if they did a thing you wanna cover, grab it, their rule-breaking ass has already done the legwork; otherwise... push it to the bottom of the list. It's obvious they just want someone or another to go up and they know it'll get proposed once they're inevitably kicked.
We're not going to let them sabotage candidates we're interested in personally but we're also not going to cater to their shitty fanfics or whatever else they feel like wanking.
I genuinely don't mind if someone wants to, but there shouldn't be a rush to.
The MILF Virus
Standalf
Sad thing about this situation is ban-evaders do put forward some genuinely great candidates, but at least someone else legitimate can take the candidate. Personally I don't think a cooldown rule is needed, because if someone else wants to take it, let them take it, and if no one does, then nobody will do it, just that simple.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Standalf
Patient
Yes to Standalf.
The Friend was a wash, which I kinda expected— still delightfully creepy though.
As for Heavy, I'll get to him eventually. For now I'm just gonna do my standard stuff, we might be seeing some other stuff from me and I've got a book arriving on Wednesday that I'm really excited to check out.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jan 31st 2022 at 6:48:54 AM
Lies and Violence!
Standalf.
Transformers: Animated is a pretty underrated Transformers cartoon. It features Optimus Prime and his gang (Bumblebee, Prowl, Ratchet and Bulkhead) as low-ranking Autobots who crash land on Earth after a run-un with the Decepticon leader Megatron. Whereas the Autobots quickly became heroes, Megatron was crippled and forced into serving as the secret "lab assistant" of one Isaac Sumdac, whose daughter, Sari, possesses a key that can repair and manipulate machinery.
With that out of the way:
Who is Soundwave?
A music robot designed by Megatron for Isaac to give to Sari for her birthday, Soundwave is really a prototype body for Megatron. He's aware Sari is reckless with her key and will continuously upgrade her gift to be bigger and better, unwittingly evolving it into a perfect murder machine.
Unfortunately, Soundwave evolves far beyond his creator's expectations, disobeying Megatron's orders and deciding to kick off a robot revolution. Megatron, not one to waste a perfectly good opportunity to be a dick, recruits him into the Decepticons and gives him the laydown on the Autobots. Soundwave takes control of the futuristic city's many robotic servants, using some to upgrade his body while sending the rest out on a rampage. When the Autobots get in his way Soundwave hijacks their communication links to confuse them until only Bulkhead remains, offering for him to join in on the revolution.
Bulkhead just destroys him. Whoops.
Fast forward to season three, and some idiot human is redistributing the initial Soundwave toys for Christmas. Original Soundwave (having survived, repaired himself, and built his minions Laserbeak and Ratbat) takes control of these toys and uses one to... spike the Autobots' drinks? Whatever, while they're unconscious he plugs them into a virtual reality where they're human to distract their minds as he reprograms them, multitasking by using the toys to brainwash everyone in the city.
Sari (unaffected by the brainwashing because of reasons I don't have time to go into) assembles some other Transformers to fight Soundwave and, while they initially have some trouble, eventually manage to divide his attention between controlling all of the brainwashed Autobots. This... backfires, to say the least, as by the time Optimus is the only one standing... well, Soundwave can put all of his concentration into controlling Optimus, and he proceeds to curb stomp them all.
Fortunately, Prowl manages to break free of his own accord — because he's awesome — and damage Soundwave's guitar, freeing Optimus. Optimus proceeds to force Laserbeak into his guitar form (oh, by the way, Laserbeak and Ratbat are guitars), has an epic battle of the bands with Soundwave, and slices him in half!
Soundwave's "brain" is carried away by Laserbeak, and had the show gotten a fourth season he would have joined the Decepticons properly.
Is He Magnificent?
Transformer with a guitar! Yes, okay, he also has a decent plan to take over the world that, despite the intervention of the "Substitute Autobots", ultimately only fails because Prowl's a ninja, but more importantly! Transformer with a goddamn guitar!
Is He a Bastard?
Tries to become Skynet and is a Decepticon, don't think I need to elaborate there.
Yes to the Transformer with a motherfucking guitar.
So after a week, my Dirty Pair proposals continue. Don't worry, I'll get them all done this week.
So let's cover where it all started. The Light Novels... kinda.
What's the Work?
Dirty Pair Volume 1, originally released in 1979 and written by Haruka Takachiho, was the true start of the franchise. But I'm technically not covering that. In 2019, a manga omnibus was released adapting the first light novel and its stories to a more visual medium, which also made it way easier to track down and read. It's a direct adaptation, just with some different character designs.
The light novel details three cases the Pair must solve. The third and final story of Volume 1, "The Case of the Blackwater Murders", finds our Lovely Angels partaking in a mission involving Yuri’s long-lost foster siblings Tuono and Lucia as they investigate the murder of their father Professor Peter von Russel after his body was found on a beach. This takes them to the planet La Mer, a gambling resort that houses quite the antagonist.
Who is She?
Madam Isabella Standalf is the owner of a huge hotel and casino resort on La Mer, and in truth the daughter of von Russel, making her Tuono and Lucia’s older sister.
What does she do?
Real name Isabella von Russel, during her childhood, Standalf was abandoned by her father and became homeless at a young age, so she turned to prostitution to make money. Sold to a wealthy degenerate as an abused sex slave by her pimp, Standalf killed him with a nearby, small angel statue while he was having sex with her. But this was all planned by Standalf’s pimp, who proceeded to rob the rich client of his money. Working with her pimp to steal money from other criminals, once Standalf grew tired of his perverse nature, she killed him and became an independent criminal, only caring about the money.
Standalf managed to gain control of La Mer by marrying the current chairman of the La Mer Casino Association. And if that wasn’t crazy enough, Standalf was able to charm her way into becoming one of the massive criminal organization Lucifer’s top ranked head honchos, despite the organization being run by a hereditary syndicate. How was she able to do it? She has her ways.
Killing her father von Russel after he disapproved of her turn to crime (despite returning him his Space Smasher-more on that later), Standalf bribed the police so that they would declare the murder case closed, while making it so that von Russel’s fingerprints and DNA were changed to a man named Beyer’s to ward off any outside suspicion. When an Earth Federation inspector named Alabell and the Pair try to investigate, Standalf has her assistant Gaston burn their hotel down with them still inside.
Through Lucifer, Standalf’s able to obtain the deadly Space Smasher, using it to hold La Mer hostage for 5 quintillion space credits. The Smasher, created by von Russel as nothing more than a complex microscope, gained a reputation as a deadly weapon after it destroyed the colony planet Proficcio and the space surrounding it by accident. Enraged that her father and his work have been given such an awful reputation, Standalf decided to take revenge on the galaxy, starting with La Mer.
Gaining access to Kei and Yuri’s Lovely Angel ship, Standalf transmits the coordinates to her beach house to them, while letting them know that everything’s going according to plan, and that the Smasher will be activated if they don’t arrive. She also invited Tuono and Lucia, as she wanted to meet the siblings she never knew she had. There, Standalf tells the Pair and Tuono and Lucia the truth about her ties to von Russel, while admitting that even though the siblings used a device to halt the Space Smasher, she still has it automatically rebooted, making their efforts moot.
But knowing that she stands no chance against the Galactic Federation’s incoming attack force, Standalf activates the Smasher and tries to keep it preserved, as it’ll be proof that she and her father lived. But the Smasher’s activation creates a ton of electricity that ends up killing her. Though given how she previously stated that she’s willing to take everybody with her to the grave, this was all a part of her plan.
Is she charming? Intelligent? Able to think on her feet?
Standalf is a genuinely polite, friendly opponent who’s able to outwit just about everybody. She’s the type of person who has hidden force fields during her final encounter with the Pair knowing that they’ll try and shoot her. She’s able to keep her cool as well; even when she’s shown to be frustrated, she’ll revert back to her calm, collective persona like its nothing.
And she’s very smart, too. She’s somehow able to weasel her way into becoming a member of Lucifer despite the hereditary circumstances surrounding its members, and she’s able to gain access to a planet using nothing but her connections. And despite everything, she still gets what she wants for the most part.
Yuri and Kei put it best: “That’s the house for you.” “Yep… Always cheating.”
Is she a bitch? Too much of one?
Standalf’s a criminal who partakes in murder, torture, destruction of her own property, and even holding a planet hostage for the sake of both money and revenge.
But she’s got a massive Freudian Excuse that still makes her somewhat sympathetic. She had a miserable childhood, and despite killing her own dad in a fit of rage (because he didn't love her anymore), she still goes out of her way to honor his name and legacy until the very end.
And while holding an entire planet hostage may seem cruel, this is Dirty Pair we’re talking about. In this volume alone, the two created a reverse Big Bang by accident that destroyed another solar system. Hell, after Standalf’s death and the Smasher’s destruction, La Mer ends up being sucked into a black hole created by the Smasher, and it’s treated as a 'wha wha whaa' moment for the enraged Kei and Yuri (though the planet’s civilians were able to get off in time).
The competition?
From the manga/first light novel alone? Not much. Her sidekick Gaston might be worth a look, as he’s shown to be very polite, cool, smart bruiser who remains very loyal to Standalf, but I don't think he does as much.
There’s also Professor Teppus from “The Great Adventure of the Dirty Pair" story, but he’s a snide asshole who not only wants to enslave a planet, but also make Kei and Yuri sex slaves for his men. Total non-contender.
In comparison, Standalf has a sympathetic backstory, and isn’t as evil or heinous as Teppus. And since the other light novels haven’t been translated in English (except the second one, though that’s hard to come by these days), Standalf’s all we have at the moment.
Verdict?
I think she keeps.
"No running in the halls!"