During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The Unknown Unknown
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Nebula. Great character development over the years.
for Kobb, Kira, Ana, Whitney, Pip, Nebula.
A tentative ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for Boucher.
Cut Love.
Now that J mentions it should Janice be cut? This is her writeup:
- "Janice Jealous": Janice herself is a monotone nerd whose yo-yo skills and expertise in arcade games made her King Chad's latest girlfriend. After Ami and Yumi lure Chad from her by copying her looks and behavior, Janice feigns sadness in order to get their attention. Getting the rockers to feel guilty and return to being themselves, this leads to Chad breaking up with them and allowing Janice to swoop in to take him back, having copied her looks off of Ami, while having also learnt guitar and joined a band during their breakup. Janice ends the episode at Chad's side again, serving as the only antagonist to score one over the Puffy duo.
This doesn't sound magnificent. And Shady actually ruins Kaz and the Hi Hi Puffies lives, and the other two actually put them in danger.
Lizzid people!
For a kid's show, I'm more lenient tbh; but I'll abstain there.
Next Narcos candidate. This guy appears in all three seasons of Mexico as well, but has a somewhat larger role than El Chapo.
Who is Amado Carillo Fuentes? What has he done?
Amado Carillo Fuentes is the eventual leader of the Juarez Cartel and one of the biggest cocaine kingpins in history (he amassed somewhere in the area of 15 billion USD throughout his career; for comparison, Pablo Escobar had a net worth estimated at 30 billion USD). Amado is the nephew of Don Neto, one of the three founders of the Guadalajara Cartel (aka the Federation), alongside Rafa and Miguel Angel Felix Gallardo. Like the rest of the Sinaloans, he grew up in the drug business.
He's initially brought on board by Don Neto as a pilot for Felix, both to fly him around the country and later to move product throughout Mexico. During one of these missions, both Felix and Amado are captured by a Nicaraguan death squad when DFS (State Sec) head Nava sends them to deliver weapons into a warzone with a CIA agent. Both men are captured and tortured, but are soon released (both Nava and "CIA Bill" were basically just fucking with them). When Felix murders DEA Agent "Kiki" Camarena in 1985, the heads of the Guadalajara Cartel are forced to go on the run. Rafa is eventually captured after several close calls, as well as Don Neto. With Felix still in hiding, Benjamin of Tijuana attempts to usurp him by calling a secret meeting between the plaza bosses. Amado is also present at this meeting, but Felix shows up with the fucking Mexican Army, having secured his deal with the government PRI party and the Minister of Defense.
The next few years, Felix expands his reach and orders Amado to go to Juarez to oversee their operations there. The boss of Juarez, Pablo Acosta, is a bit... excentric. He's supposed to be building airfields to increase transport, but he's too busy roofing buildings, worrying about an old vendetta, and is secretly also planning to quit the drug business for good and settle down with his Texan girlfriend. Amado helps him settle the vendetta before accompanying Felix for a meeting with the Cali Cartel. Felix thinks he has the upper hand and will be able to force Cali to pay him in product (which would increase his fortune manifold), but realizes he was outplayed by the Gulf Cartel and its boss Guerra and is forced to promise the Colombians he'll be able to ship a ludicruous 70 tons of cocaine in one night. Amado is put in charge of expanding the airfields and starts visiting auctions across central America to buy enough planes to meet this increase. Amado succeeds at this indisputably, even preparing for a DEA raid on their airfield and killing most of them. Later on, with Felix at the height of his power, he has the family of one of the Sinaloan plaza bosses murdered for defying him. At a meeting, Amado and the other bosses dethrone Felix, with Amado admitting that he's been planning on doing this a long time, calmly informing Felix that his time is up before leaving.
With the plazas becoming their own Cartels, Amado becomes the head of the Juarez Cartel along with Aguilar, the late Pablo Acosta's former second-in-command. Amado is still flying cargo, but his plane is shot down by the Army during one such run and he spends some time in prison. When he gets out, he learns that his little daughter has died from an illness while he was away. Angry that he's had to miss his daughter's funeral and unhappy with the manner in which Aguilar is treating him like a junior partner, spending months to find an official to bribe to get him out and offering him pocket change as a "welcome home present". Amado walks into the cafe one day, then shoots Aquilar in front of all his men to make it clear he's running the show now. Amado starts work on decentralizing the Juarez Cartel (something Aguilar was against), giving specific people very specific tasks so law enforcement will be forced to play whack a mole and never deal his organization a crippling blow, and enlisting his own brother as muscle to dispose of anyone who isn't on board.
Amado also makes a new deal with Cali, first failing negotiations with Pacho Herrera, but later making an emotional plea to him sharing the new outlook on life his daughter's death has given him. Achieving what Felix failed at, being paid in product, and with all his rivals feuding like mad dogs over the Mexican drug trade, Amado becomes the single biggest player overnight. This streak lasts for some time, until he learns that the Cali godfathers are planning to go legit. Amado immediately makes a deal with the Valley Del Norte Cartel, a splinter group. Tijuana, whom he made vague promises of an alliance against Sinaloa towards, are incensed and put out a hit on him. Amado survives and joins the war against them. In another genius move, it turns out that the General who is put in charge of cracking down on the Cartels is on Amado's payroll! They've been killing his rivals for him.
Realizing that his time at the top is limited, Amado starts moving his capital overseas, breaking his deal with the corrupt elites running Mexico in the process. Having also started a romance with an Afro-Cuban nightclub singer, Amado has been infrequently visiting her to get away from his stressful life. When her life is threatened, Amado sends one of his assassins to Havana to kill the Cuban secret agent watching her and giving her instructions to head to Chile and wait for him there. Amado avoids the raid on his mansion, and with his only other mode of escape being shot down during take-off, travels to a plastic surgery clinic to change his face. He apparently dies on the operating table, but then his body disappears. His girlfriend is last seen wandering the beach of Amado's mansion in Chile, with his treasured black model airplane laid out on a piano.
How do his actions and personality show him to be a Magnificent Bastard?
Amado is easily one of the most successful of all of Mexico's drug lords. A quiet, observant man, Amado is initially in the background, serving as Felix's skymaster before making his move to assume control. Amado invents new ways to strengthen his Cartel, like making every piece of it a part of an orchestra and frustrate the authorities. He also makes an exclusive deal with the most powerful, most corrupt kingmaker in Mexico, Carlos Hank González, as well as the Cali godfathers. Amado develops a close friendship with Pacho Herrera in particular, sharing his troubled thoughts with him while also keeping it a business relationship. Pacho also clearly has a thing for him, but Incompatible Orientation and all that. Eventually, Amado is forced to drop Pacho when Cali is announcing their retirement, which pains him a bit. He's also Amicable Exes with his former wife, apologizing that he couldn't make it work, and develops a genuine romance with a Cuban woman.
All this makes Amado one of the most human but simultanously cleverest and wealthiest kingpins. His competitors, other than El Chapo, aren't even in the same playing field. Felix becomes a paranoid, unhinged monster who coldly tells his own wife that he doesn't need her anymore and is despised by everyone. The Arellanos of Tijuana start strong, but they're WAY too cocky and are dealt several huge blows in the drug wars that follow, and the Sinaloans are all outplayed by El Chapo. The entire DEA operation that is supposed to be targeting him is also being manipulated by Amado all along.
Mitigating factors?
I should point out that Amado starts out as somewhat more of a party animal in season 1, but after his daughter's death in season 3 he's a lot more private. He spends a lot of his time sitting around by himself in his huge villa, not filling the place with Hookers and Blow. While this does suggest that it's Lonely at the Top, I think Amado does enough proactive things (such as his dalliance in Havana) to make this non-mitigating. The man has a lot of emotions, but he never flies off the handle and is able to deal with them.
Conclusion?
I think Amado Carillo Fuentes is as strong a candidate we've seen from this series. While his Real Life counterpart really did die on the operating table in 1997, Narcos slyly implies that he's really Faking the Dead.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Dec 5th 2021 at 2:57:52 AM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Amado. I do maintain that Pacho might be worth look. His end is somewhat abrupt, but we have approved keepers with abrupt ends. I agree Chepe's is too pathetic.
to Amado
Edited by G-Editor on Dec 4th 2021 at 3:22:00 AM
Yes to Amado.
Yes to Amado.
Anyone know how to edit and upload video examples? Because I think this clip of Red Hood would be a mighty fine video example. Only if it's approved, obviously.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Dec 4th 2021 at 6:12:37 AM
The Moron
Yes to Amado
And I agree on that video wholeheartedly
Alright so I just EPed a CM from this work, so might as well bring up the possible MB here too. Since premise is the same, I'll just copy-paste some stuff from my EP there.
Candidate is the Granter of Wishes from Snow White: The Fairest of Them All.
What is the work? Who is the Granter of Wishes?
Snow White: The Fairest of Them All is a TV movie adaptation of the classic Brothers Grimm Fairytale, but with quite a few creative liberties taken.
In this version, Snow White and her family were not originally of royalty. Her mother died giving birth to her, leaving her father, John, to care for her on his own. During one harsh winter, John struggles to find food for his daughter. He eventually collapses on a frozen lake with his baby daughter, shedding a tear believing it is the end.
His tear however thaws out an ancient being trapped underneath the ice, a sorcerer known as the Granter of Wishes. Grateful for being freed by John, he offers to grant any of his wishes. John's first wish is food for Baby Snow, to which he produces a bottle of milk. His next wish is for his dead wife, his queen, to be returned to him. However the Wish Granter states he does not have the power to resurrect the dead, but he says he can give John a queen, using a twist of Exact Words.
John then magically finds himself made into a king with his own kingdom of loyal servants. For his new queen, the Wish Granter takes his own sorceress sister, Elspeth, and transforms her from her hideous form into a beautiful queen for John.
Queen Elspeth ends up being this story's version of the Evil Queen, who possesses a magic mirror which she uses to check if she is the Fairest of Them All. Eventually Snow White would overtake her, so she makes repeated attempts to murder her, while bewitching anyone who got in her way or found out the truth about her. These include transforming many dwarves into garden gnomes, turning a Prince that was in love with Snow into a bear, and trapping King John in one of her enchanted mirrors.
Eventually she succeeds in making Snow White eat the poisoned apple. Satisfied, Elspeth checks if she is once again the fairest, but is horrified to see she has reverted back to her ugly appearance.
Her brother the Wish Granter appears before her and reveals her evil deeds have cost her beauty. Furious, Elspeth tries to kill her brother by throwing her enchanted mirror, but it ends up missing and shattering. Unphased, Wish Granter gives a pitiful look and leaves, to which all of Elspeth's enchantments lift and she gets killed by the many newly revived dwarves she petrified.
How is he Magnificent?
Played by Clancy Brown, the Granter of Wishes is incredibly affable, composed, and suave. Simultaneously appearing wise and mysterious, while also ominous.
While not really evil, he still takes advantage of John's situation to both grant one of his wishes, but also using it for his own benefit by giving his sister a chance at a better life. He doesn't really have anything in the way of competition, as he firmly outsmarts Elspeth near the end.
Bastard?
What he did at the start was.. morally dubious to say the least. Taking advantage of a grieving widower and twisting his words to give his own sister a luxurious life. It's kinda a low ball, especially considering the kind of person his sister was.
Having said that, he does have standards and when he sees his sister has gone too far, he delivers her karma and goes on his merry way.
Final verdict?
I'd say he's one of the best parts of the film
Showtime!
to the Granter
Yes to the Wish Granter.
Granter of Wishes.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Ana, Whitney, Pip, Nebula (surprisingly), Fuentes and the Granter of Wishes.
Cut Quinn.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
to Granter
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Granter of Wishes
Genie Mr. Krabs
Here's the draft:
- Dogs in Space: Kira is a dog who developed an intense resentment towards mankind after she ended up stranded on a hostile alien planet while sent on a mission. After getting found and recruited by the Pluto crew, she proves to be a valuable ally and aids the team in several missions. After some time, Kira convinces Garbage to abandon M-BARK's mission and instead find a planet just for dogs. Kira then steals a device that can turn the dogs non-sapient; intending to use it to force the M-BARK's denizens to go along with her plan. When Garbage opposes this, Kira launches him, alongside Happy and Jerry, to a nearby planet. Even when the Pluto crew discover her plans, Kira is able to evade and outsmart them before using the device to take over the space station. She's only stopped when Garbage proves that her owner still loved her; leading her to realize that she was wrong about humans and surrender herself.
Edited by Sawkman on Dec 4th 2021 at 12:41:36 PM
Yes to Amado and the Granter.
Whitney, Pip, Nebula, Amado and Granter
Cut Love
Goku Black
Amado and wish granter
Hmm I think I'll give a leaning![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
. She's not as put together as the characters I usually upvote. There's enough panic and buffoonery to give me pause, but ultimately I do agree I think she makes it. At the end of the day I think she's far more dignified on average than Loki (not me trying to get him cut.)
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid