During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Lies and Violence!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Moriarty.
Goku Black
Wait do we have 8?
I thought it was Moriarty the patriot, Necronomicon, Moriarty, Moriarty lives, Elementary, bakers dozen, Rache, Moriarty, Faust.
I counted 11 with these two.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Oh it's 12.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 28th 2021 at 12:49:51 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Caesar
There's like 11 incarnations of Moriarty as is. That madman could fill an entire page himself ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Between him, OG!Holmes, Beppo from the TV series, we may well be good for a page now, tbh.
Goku Black
Maybe it will be like the Halloween page where its mostly one guy.
Simeon, Moriarty and the quote
Yes to Simeon and Moriarty.
The solution to the Tabletop conundrum is obviously just to fold all the pages back into the main section.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
And a very happy yes to Original Moriarty, THE Diabolical Mastermind.
And the quote of course. Will probably be good for the quite likely inevitable page.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Aug 28th 2021 at 1:17:39 AM
I would like to suggest yet another Moriarty, although I can't do an EP.
The Moriarty trilogy by John Gardner (which currently has no page on this wiki) featuring Moriarty as a Villain Protagonist who survives his battle with Holmes and goes back to London coming across as a cross between Vito Corleone and Keyser Soze. The guy is a genuine bastard, but he's also insanely smart, comes out on top a lot, and takes any losses well while having some Benevolent Boss and Even Evil Has Loved Ones moments.
I can't do an EP myself for at least a month, because it's been a several years since I read one of the books cover to cover, and they are currently at the house of a relative in a different state (so I won't be Abel to re read them for weeks or months) and I've got a pretty busy schedule this week, but the entire trilogy can be read for free by kindle unlimited subscribers. The first book is the Return of Professor Moriarty, if anyone is interested. I'd really recommend reading the books. They felt cooler when I was in High School than they do now, but their still way better than any of John Gardner's James Bond books.
Edited by Melinda on Aug 28th 2021 at 1:21:18 AM
to Moriarty
Moriarty
Shin Megami Tensei IV
The Moron
Alrighty, got another one for DC, of all places - a fun, accidental find along the way to an eventual Hitler EP on the other thread.
What is the work?
America vs. the Justice Society is a Pre-Crisis miniseries set on Earth-Two. In it, Batman has died, but publishes a diary publicly accusing the JSA of collaborating with the Nazis for decades, resulting in their arrest. It's a Courtroom Episode featuring the JSA telling their history to the committee to counter his accusations and eventually coming in conflict with Per Degaton - but today, I'm here to talk about the man whose actions set the whole plot in motion.
Who is Batman? What does he do?
Specifically Earth-Two Batman, but the point still stands.
By this point in whatever DC thinks to be the "canon", Bruce, in his final years as a crime fighter, contracts cancer, meaning he'll be dead within the year, and through a series of events has become highly distrustful of the rest of the JSA. As a result of this distrust combined with some mental issues, Bruce decides to help release Per Degaton from prison citing his health issues, only for Degaton to gleefully inform him that in less than six years, Degaton can go back to running the world again. Combining this with Dr. Nichols referencing Professor Zee's 100th birthday coming around that time, the Batman personality within his subconscious rose up to the surface, working to resolve a conflict he believed he wouldn't live to experience.
To do this, Batman wrote a full diary accusing the JSA of a major crime - collaborating with Hitler and the Nazis following being hit with the Spear of Destiny, not just during World War II but for decades, including sabotaging war efforts all over the place and suggesting that all of their positive works were a front or accidents. He even goes so far as to say that he was a part of this operation until the fifties, attributing crimes to them like allowing Pearl Harbor to continue, attempting to assassinate FDR, and dissolving during the war to ensure none of them were called against Hitler himself. After writing the diary, he gives it to Dr. Nichols to give to Clark Kent in the event of his death, a few months before he would then die in an unrelated conflict.
Dr. Nichols does what he was asked and gives the journal to Clark, who, due to his journalistic integrity, confirms that it was in Batman's handwriting and publishes the whole thing publicly. As a result, the JSA is arrested and called for a hearing regarding their possible treason, with even Dick siding against the JSA out of loyalty to his father. To counter the very detailed accusations Batman wrote, the JSA is required to go through their own history in depth in order to provide their own side of the story - and through it all, one name keeps coming up over and over again: Per Degaton, who unknown to the JSA is planning a scheme of his own at that moment. Having previously shot Professor Zee into a time machine several years prior, Degaton intends to take advantage of the JSA's distraction to be in the place where the time machine will arrive so he can use it to take over the world.
However, Dick ends up putting together Degaton's previous words to Bruce alongside Batman's actions to realize that Degaton will be receiving the time machine in minutes, so Dick moves to intercept him. Realizing that Batman wrote the diary as a long-term gambit to get Dick in the right place to stop him, Degaton moves to take the time machine when Zee arrives and collapses dead, only for the whole Justice Society to arrive and hear Zee accuse him of murder. Cornered and defeated, Degaton commits suicide on the spot, with Batman having accomplished everything he meant to do from beyond the grave.
Is he Magnificent?
Even though he's a Posthumous Character, Batman is per usual a genius chessmaster even from beyond the grave. By submitting his journal to Dr. Nichols to give to Clark when he realizes he's going to die, he's relying on Nichols, both Clark and Superman, Dick, as well as the JSA doing what he hopes they'll do in order to ensure Degaton's defeat, which all goes completely according to plan - to counter the events laid out in Batman's diary, the JSA goes in-depth as to their past, resulting in Degaton's name continually coming up and Dick and the JSA figuring out the truth just in time to see him be accused of the murder of Professor Zee, especially with Dick making the necessary deductions himself from Batman's information. Hell, it even requires Bruce himself to die at the right time for the journal to be released at the spot where it will have an impact. In the end, through one massive Batman Gambit (true to form, of course), Batman ensures the defeat of one of the JSA's biggest threats long after he's already dead.
Is he a Bastard?
As per usual with Batman, too much isn't the question, it's if he is one at all - and I think his gambit just barely pushes him over. Yes, he's writing the diary in order to defeat Per Degaton, but the fact is he's still hanging his JSA companions out to dry by publicly accusing them of being Nazis and having sabotaged American war efforts in the past, calling them to a trial which is taken advantage of by malicious parties to see the JSA taken down (like the rogue chairman on the committee). If he had any form of precognizance that could allow him to see it all work out that'd be one thing, but he's taking a gigantic gamble that risks the JSA being arrested or disbanded for crimes he knows they didn't do in order to ensure Degaton's defeat. Even if he's not getting anyone in physical harm, it's just morally ambiguous enough for me to say yes.
Any mitigating factors?
I want to be clear that the work treats Bruce and Batman as a Split Personality situation that credits both of them with separate deeds, and therefore Bruce's paranoia leading to releasing Per Degaton isn't held against "Batman". Dick outright says that Batman rose up through Bruce's subconscious to ensure Degaton's defeat, meaning in essence that "Batman" worked to make up for "Bruce's" mistake. You'll notice that I only said Who is Batman at the top of the EP and have consistently only referred to him as Batman instead of "Bruce" when applicable - specifically because Bruce had clearly gone mental by this point in his distrust of the JSA, whereas Batman was able to hang on and make up for the mistake. At the absolute worst, even if we don't wanna subscribe to that idea, then the point of the book is Batman making up for the mistake that he made, so even if we don't want to make that distinction, he still successfully repairs his mistake with no preventable loss of life, so regardless of if we wanna hold it against Bruce/Batman as a whole, he fixes the mistake perfectly.
Additionally, it's DC, meaning that canon is about as simple as, as Scraggle once so elegantly put it, "a Gordian knot having sex with a tesseract". In the long run, this Batman is Earth-Two Batman, who has over 500 appearances to his name in total, so the issue is if we can take this book as it's own thing - long story short, I think we can. Crisis on Infinite Earths seems to have retconned this particular story out of existence - most notably, no official history of Earth-Two Batman mentions this story when talking about his death, nor is the brief rivalry it causes between Helena and Dick - so to keep things simple, at the absolute worst it's "dubiously canon" and at best it's straight up "non-canon". Either way, I think we can keep this self-contained.
Final verdict?
Iffy canon aside, I think he's a yes overall - what about you?
Here's an potential quote to put on the page:
Misaki: But what can Kabuto do now?
Kagami: It's okay. He...walks the path of Heaven. He's the man who will rule over all.
- Arata Kagami backing up Souji Tendou, Kamen Rider Kabuto: God Speed Love
I hate spoilers
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Gotta love Jaws!
to Simeon, Moriarty and Batman.
Goku Black
the godamm Batman
to Batman
Batman
Not feeling the Kamen Rider quote.
Leaning Batman.
to Moriarty and the actual Sherlock Holmes. Are they both worthy of Magnificent B Astard? "No shit, Sherlock." Couldn't resist.
Abstain on that Batman.
The Draftsman of Doom
Hi there. I found some entries in the Total Drama Letterz page about the characters Tabitha and Kim but I can't find copies on the Fan Works page. Were these entries not approved or were they placed on the ymmv page first.
They were not approved, cut away.
Also found this example on Killer Joe:
- Magnificent Bastard:
- He may be a thoroughly despicable, barely human monster, but it's hard not to admire the flawless way Joe takes apart the entire plot, plays parties against each other and adapts to new situations.
- Sharla probably thought she was going to be one by stealing the money with Rex (she was having an affair with him), but Joe figures her out and proceeds to take her down more than a few notches.
Never seen it, but I do know the film is infamous for Joe forcing a woman to mime giving him a blowjob on a chicken drum stick. That in itself might just fall under our sexually iffy but not too iffy rules. However the trope page also says he engages in a relationship with a character that is full of Questionable Consent implications. Thus I'm thinking he's a hard no. The second one is one of those classic "thinks she's this". So... she isn't.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 28th 2021 at 10:15:35 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Honestly fine with a page anytime. We can hold off or I can make one for Rav to add stuff to, given we're at eight with our classic bois joining the list!
Also for Tabletop... do we want Warhammer and Pathfinder sub ones? I'm kinda caught between doing so and making the main page awkwardly short or leaving them lumped and having weirdly long sections on the YMMV ones.
Tbh I should probably look at Appleseed and Newton's Valkyria stuff since both have at least seven on a single main.