During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Going back to Cinder, would therebe any point in me making a proper write-up for her?
Nope. She doesn't count. We've ruled that via consensus.
Who is "we"?
"We" being the thread as a whole. This is a community effort, and the exact reason we established this cleanup thread - there's at least six alone I've counted who have voted in favor against her on the page where discussion last tracked off.
My two cents? Cinder's simply too arrogant and needlessly spiteful for the trope. She's an effective planner in volume 3, but she never really rebounds back to "magnificence" after her initial defeat and she just becomes a snarling, spiteful monster who doesn't stand out among Salem's inner circle except by virtue of how nasty she is — hence why she qualifies, at least for now, as a Complete Monster.
Edited by Scraggle on Nov 21st 2018 at 1:17:14 PM
Goku Black
Oh right I didn't vote on her.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Cinder.
Sounds like a genuine Smug Snake
Edited by miraculous on Nov 21st 2018 at 12:25:19 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Have we discussed Tom Ripley yet? This entry is on Ripliad:
- Magnificent Bastard: Most evident in Ripley's Game, where Tom takes revenge on an artist who snubbed him at a party by bribing the man's doctor to declare him terminally ill. Then, Tom manipulates the artist into committing murders for him in order to have money to support his wife and child once he dies.
I'll admit I'm only familiar with him from the John Malkovich version, but he handily qualifies there. Dunno about the books or the Matt Damon film.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Actually, you bring up a good point. The rules say that a villain's arc needs to be over before they qualify, and Cinder's very clearly isn't.
However, I do take issue with a lot of people on this thread taking peoples statements as Gospel without seeing the villain for themselves.
I think depending on how well she performs in her attempted comeback she might be up for re-discussion. Depending on if she sinks further into Smug Snake territory, or re-establishes herself as a potential Magnificent Bastard.
That out of the way, I DO have an actual write-up: Jim Moriarty from Sherlock.
The Work: Series/Sherlock. BBC's modern-day adaptation of Sherlock Holmes.
The Villain's Actions: Introduced as a shadowy "consulting criminal", Moriarty learns of Sherlock Holmes long before Sherlock learns of him. Impressed with Sherlock's intelligence, Moriarty sees him as a Worthy Opponent and a momentary distraction from his endless boredom. Getting into contact with Sherlock via innocent people who he has strapped with explosives and given a pager to read out his words to Sherlock EXACTLY (As well as approaching Sherlock in person at one point under a false persona), Moriarty sends Sherlock a series of puzzles for the consulting detective to solve with the threat of detonating the bombs on the innocents should Sherlock fail.
At the climax of the finale of Season One, Sherlock beleives that all of Moriarty's games have been a distraction to let Moriarty find a usb drive of stolen missile plans before Sherlock does. Now in possession of said plans, Sherlock arranges a meeting between himself and Moriarty.
However, the consulting criminal is one step ahead of him and kidnaps John Watson as a hostage, once again covering Sherlock's best friend in plastic explosives with a sniper ready to trigger them. It's at this point that Sherlock finally meets Moriarty in person and we are introduce to his playful, jovial and hammy personality. As well as his surprising valor, for despite Sherlock aiming a gun at his head, AND being in the same room as several kilos of explosives, he shows absolutely no fear. Backed into a corner, Sherlock is forced to hand over the missile plans, only for Moriarty to casually toss the usb into the pool ("I could've got them anywhere."). Making it clear that Moriarty's scheme was never to get his hands on the missile plans, but instead to play on Sherlock's own challenge seeker personality to not only draw him into a trap, but to establish Sherlock's weakpoint. The one person he has an attachment to.//
At first, Moriarty opts to let Sherlock live to keep the game going, but then decides it would be more pragmatic to just shoot him. However, a phone call from Irene Adler gives him reason to let Sherlock live again. Using Irene to play on Sherlock's emotions, he orchestrates a plan where she manipulates Sherlock into giving her the secret location of a British anti-terrorist plot, then blackmails both Sherlock and Mycroft (a high-ranking government agent) in exchange for not going public with the fact that Sherlock technically commited treason. When Sherlock later foils Irene's plan, Moriarty adopts a new one.
Letting himself be captured by Myvroft, Moriarty plays Hannibal Lecter with the older Holmes brother. Giving Mycroft information on his network in exchange for personal stories about Sherlock. After being released, Moriarty engineers a plot to open a large british prison, a bank, AND steal the crown jewels in a single day. Except , he doesn't do any of those things. For when the police come to arrest him, they find him sitting on a throne WEARING the crown jewels and willing to come quietly. His only request that Sherlock be a witness at his trial.
Naturally, something this big makes Sherlock an instant media sensation, which is exactly what Moriarty was banking on. And when he's declared not guilty by the entire jury (Who were blackmailed by Moriarty's network), the public is suddenly very suspicious of what exactly happened. In fact, HOW could Sherlock be able to solve all these crimes so quickly? No-one is that smart? And Sherlock's arrogant, abrasive attitude doesn't help.
So Moriarty gives them the answer they WANT to hear: Sherlock is a fraud, a phony. The crimes he "solved" had been charades performed by him and some actors he hired, including his "old childhood friend" an actor named Jim who he asked to play the role of his arch-nemesis. Jim even uses the personal information he manipulated Mycroft into giving him to make the story as beleivable as possible.
It works. The public turns on Sherlock, the police move in to arrest him, and while Sherlock evades capture, he isolates himself from his friends and loved ones, focusing on what he beleives to be his one life line. The single line of computer code that Moriarty has that can unlock any computer in the world.
However, when Sherlock tries to draw Moriarty into another trap to get the code and use it to reveal that Moriarty is real and not an actor, Moriarty drops his final reveal: There is no such code. There never was. And by isolating himself and focusing all his efforts on uncovering this "Super secret code", Sherlock has left his friends vulnerable, and allowed Moriarty to plant assassins in their homes. Ready to kill everyone Sherlock loves unless Sherlock publically commits suicide. Dying in disgrace as a fraud. When Sherlock points out that he could use Moriarty as a hostage to force his men into calling off their attack, Moriarty acknowledges Sherlock's point and gleefully shoots himself to cut of Sherlock's only lifeline.
While Sherlock DID find a way to fake his death, Moriarty's games forced him into hiding for two years and left a deep scar on his psyche.
How he thinks on his feet. To summarise, Morirarty is VERY flexible. As the write-up aboves shows, he alters his plan multiple times and is not afraid to put himself in danger (Or even kill himself) to achieve victory.
The Competetition Sherlock and Mycroft Holmes. A highly intelligent detective, and a man who effectively IS the British Goverment (When he's not to busy being the CIA on a freelance basis), both men equal Moriarty in intelligence and sometimes resources, so Moriarty competes by targeting their emotions. Exploiting their flaws and distracting them with things that he knows will peak their interests while his real plans remain hidden.
Edited by Giantleviathan on Nov 21st 2018 at 1:28:16 AM
Alright, Giant, drop the “All you guys do is listen to the opinions of a few people” thing, it’s getting irritatingly aggressive and you already said you’d stop that.
Secondly, having seen Sherlock, no to this version of Moriarty. As I said when I cut the old entry, the emphasis on his plotting and guile in the show points to how dangerous someone that twisted with brains would be. I know we’ve approved CMs but Moriarty is sadistic to stomach churning levels. Like, half his ambition seems to be just loving to get to hurt people in the jobs he does. That might not be the answer you like but I watched the show too and I get an opinion that’s just as valid as yours.
Oh and yes to Satannus and hbd to Lighty!
Edited by 43110 on Nov 21st 2018 at 9:40:52 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Satannus. And happy birthday Lighty!
Moriarty. I have seen the show as well, and while a great villain, Jim's main goal is just to cause as much pain to Sherlock as possible without any other grand plan. He's got good plans for hurting Sherlock and others, but he never goes beyond sadism for the sake of it.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Nov 21st 2018 at 10:31:40 AM
I apologised for getting to agressive, and I apologise if I'm doing so now. But when you have say, miraculous saying Cinder is a Smug Snake based solely on Scraggles description of her (Which for all they know could be inaccurate), then there's a problem of some people just following the leader.
Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not saying my opinion is more valid than yours. If anything, I'd be saying no-one's opinion is valid, since the point of this is to remove opinion from being a factor in the first place.
My issue was only with people making what seemed biased statements, and with others seeming to go along with statements made without verifying. Neither of which have occured in your last two disagreements.
In Mir's defence, all he said was that she sounded like a Smug Snake, while it aligns with what Scraggs said, it could just as well be his own research on the character that lead him here, as you can see that interpretation of Cinder isn't exactly an uncommon way to read her.
As for the haven't seen the villain thing? EPs and entries as well should actually be written so non-viewers can understand them, so pouring through character sheets and works ones you should be able to build an opinion. I recognize that in practice that isn't always possible but for something popular like RWBY that's hopefully troped competently, we should be able to find the relevant info looking through its pages to build our opinions.
But.. and I know this contradicts me earlier, but maybe you SHOULD make it so it is impossible to be a Complete Monster and a Magnificent Bastard? Since I'm not sure what you could do to qualify as a Complete Monster that ISN'T stomach-churning and loathsome? Afterall, the first criteria for Complete Monster IS that they must be heinous.
Just thinking it might make your jobs simpler.
@43110 Fair point.
Honestly, I'd rather not, especially since some of the crossover examples we've got (Hans Gruber and Damon Killian) actually come to mind as some of the almost "quintessential" examples of MBs, despite also being CMs. If you're not shoving your sadism down our throats, don't commit any abhorrent crimes like rape and can be charming, brilliant and think on your feet, I see no bar.
Ambar once made some good posts about the time for an overlap and namely that it includes your monstrosity being "secondary" to your character, coming after the emphasis on how cool and smart they are. Doc similarly gave a good piece on the overlap happening when the crimes are done in the name of attaining an end goal. Back to Hans, yes he's a greedy psychopath who will kill hostages but as opposed to loving the killing he's got a logical goal in mind (the bonds) and he's just unyielding in what he has to do to get them.
Edited by 43110 on Nov 21st 2018 at 10:59:32 AM
Satannus
I see. Though to play devil's advocate, The Joker and Johan Leibert are both "quintessential examples (By which I mean that they're examples that are frequently used) who's monstrosity is at the very least emphasised as much as their intelligence.
Also, I'm looking at the Magnificent Bastard example page and it REALLY needs an overhaul on the description. As you guys have said, being a Magnificent Bastard is NOT a sign of a villain's quality. However, the current write-up is basicallly "ZOMG! This is the best villain evar! They're just so super-special awesome you guyz!" Which kind of runs counter to your message.
Goku Black
Uh no to Jim.
Cool villain but not this. He suffers from the same issues that the guy he was based on Harold Saxxon suffers from. He's an unbelively pretty Psychopathic Manchild to the point his sadism overshadows any of his charm coming through
Edited by miraculous on Nov 21st 2018 at 8:40:46 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Going to have to disagree there, I think it reads fine. It used to be a mess of paragraphs explaining the tropes it comprised of and went on and on about how awesome such a villain was but now I think it captures the general gist of what we need. I think the issue is less the description itself and more that the qualities it happens to encompass tend to attract people to it and has lead to its unfortunate "badge of honour" status.
As for the likes of Johan and the Joker, that's just the issue of having characters who can read like ones on paper and as we've seen on CM, the best way to deal with those is just to bring them up here and hash it out, as we've been doing.
Edited by 43110 on Nov 21st 2018 at 11:35:59 AM
A birthday for Lighty's Satannus!
Jim.
Just adding a few more cents into the Jim discussion, I feel personally that his sadism does not override his charm. To explain, while he's undeniably monstrous, I feel that he has more than enough "cool" and "fun" traits to balance it out and give him a high score on the charisma factor. Also, I wouldn't really call him petty. He treats everything as a game or a performance and doesn't seem all that concerned with smaller things. Which I see as the opposite of pettiness.
Just my cents.
To Satanuc
to Cinder and Jim
Remember AnoBakaDesu who EP'd Savathûn and we were apparently waiting for her write-up, well he actually did made a write-up from but rather than post it in the drafts page he put it strait to the YMMV page of Destiny 2. So here's AnoBakaDesu's write-up of Savathun.
- Magnificent Bastard: Savathûn starts showing her chops as the Hive Goddess of Cunning in Forsaken, and she does not disappoint; an insightful and audacious schemer, from the moment Uldren started to listen to the equally crafty Riven, she already won; by opening the gate to the Dreaming City she was able to use the Guardians' own greed for loot against them, leading them to slay Riven and unleash a curse on the Dreaming City, which allows Savathûn's daughter, Dûl Incaru, to enter Mara Sov's Ascendant Realm and search for the Distributary, the Awoken's pocket dimension. Additionally, Savathûn has the Vex Mind Quria place the City under a time loop which begins with Riven's death and ends with Dûl Incaru's, resetting once the latter has come to pass in order to give Dûl an infinite number of tries to search for the Distributary and inflict mass murder on the Awoken residing there, accruing a massive death tribute at a moment's notice due to the differing time flow between dimensions. By simply by doing their jobs, the Guardians are merely delaying the inevitable, and if they quit, then Savathûn will finish conquering the Dreaming City and eventually get her death tribute. A brilliant and adaptable conqueror, Savathûn has more than replaced her late brother Oryx; she's outshined him.
I'll put it on the drafts page for yall to edit it.
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 21st 2018 at 10:55:13 AM
for Jim Moriarty, who I've always considered more of a buffoon than anything else to be honest.
After discussion with Fried Warthog, I have added his name to the Spider-Man PS 4 DLC discussion stuff.
As a reminder, the next Spider-Man discussion is 4th December.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Satan
IPP Wick Check created.