During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I could handle Rev 9. I own the movie.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Do it up Bull!![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
@Lighty Yeah, they all absolutely benefit from being designed with the goals in mind and it helps accentuate the smarts and strategies used in the process as a result. With John in Genisys, maybe he's worth discussion, but he's probably more of a pawn of Skynet than any of the other machines in the movies are.
Grace in Dark Fate is also too heroic probably as well. John in Genisys also is probably too smug come to think of it, as he's thinking he's better than everyone now that Skynet "showed him the truth".
Including my joint one and counting it as two, that's four more coming! Looks like we got a party!
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 21st 2021 at 1:15:17 AM
Alright I got one more character to discuss from Watch Dogs: Legion Bloodline. However unlike Aiden and Wrench, this guy was already approved awhile back, namely Jordi Chin. Don't worry Jordi still counts, but he is given more actions in the "Bloodline" namely he gives Aiden Pearce his contract to steal the BrocaBridge in London since Jordi is unable to travel to London due to travel restrictions caused by the bombings and would later come into contact with Wrench during the time Aiden was in his coma giving Wrench various fixer assignments for him to complete while having humorous banter with both of them. With that I'd say Jordi needs a re-write to include his actions in Bloodline. How is this
- Jordi Chin is a witty yet professional fixer that helps Aiden Pearce to track down Maurice Vega at a baseball stadium before he stages the scenario like a gang-shooting before calling the police, distracting everyone while he and Aiden escape taking Maurice with them. Learning that someone survived their attack and can identify them, Jordi has Aiden infiltrate the prison to silence the witness being held there and would later betray Aiden after receiving a contract to kill him. Surviving his scuffle with Aiden, Jordi appears in the sequel’s DLC, "Human Conditions", teaming up with DedSec hacker Marcus Holloway to kill Anton Bagdonov of the Russian Mob, Bratva, pinning his murder on Marcus, and in Legion's "Bloodlines " assigns Aiden to steal the BrocaBridge in London and getting into contact with Wrench, before assigning him fixer jobs to complete.
I’ll get to Aiden and Wrench later either tonight or tomorrow but for now Any thoughts on Jordi’s new write-up?
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 21st 2021 at 5:34:05 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Personally? I'm a Nay on Austin / T1000
I love him as a villain, he's one of my favorite terminators, and I've come to agree he's not a CM for good reason, But....
I feel like they do display he has a sadistic / petty edge. He does draw out the Guard who's Identity He steals death, stabbing him with a pointed finger in his brain, letting him writhe in agony for a bit watching as he died, when we see Earlier he could kill way faster then that, He could easily have just used his shifting skills to Call John instead of trying to force Sarah to do it(Normally this one could Be chalked to Fridge Logic, but he tries to do Exactly that after T800 rescues Sarah) And, I can't really ignore the Combo of that and the Finger wag bit, wich result in his horrifying screaming death as he desperately tries to get out of the lava crying out 'No!' Over and over?
Usually I'm all for ignoring Word of God or Supplementary materials, but, this feels more like a case where the scenes are there even if not totally clear on there own, and the Bonus stuff just serves as 'Clarification', like someone having a debatable case of loved ones in the text itself but WOG confirmed it was geniune.
I kinda feel like the, 'point' so to speak is that He's more Human / Cruel then a normal terminator. And said human side ends up screwing him over in the end. One could maybe argue it still wouldn't be enough to push him over the bastard line, heck if his death was slightly less, that, or even if it was just the bit where he tries to make Sarah call John instead of doing it himself or the Wag, rather then having both, I could still see it but....all that, in addition to those 2 big moments where he could have done things quicker and not doing so bites him in the ass, and just how damn Epically it did bite him in the ass?
Won't throw a fit if he goes up though, it was a good proposal. Just really wish I got here earlier.
Edited by Snoketrope on Jul 21st 2021 at 2:48:52 AM
The First man
Writeup time.
- Mirai Sentai Timeranger:
- "Episode 14: Dead Heat:" Mad Racer Baron is the former racing rival of Ayase. After Ayase turns him in for a crime, Baron proceeds in a new plan to when released in the present day. Baron plays the role of a getaway driver for the Dolnero crime family, pretending to be madly in love with Dolnero's moll Lila, all the while hunting down Ayase, who has become Time Blue. Fearless and cunning, Baron repeatedly helps the Dolneros escape crime scenes, eventually slipping away via disguise and challening Ayase to their final race. Baron successfully manages to convince Ayase to race him. When Ayase rams his car and disqualifies himself from their race to save children, Baron willingly turns himself in after acknowledging that Ayase had the moral high ground and telling off Lila for her criminal ways. Even when Lila brainwashes him as a last resort, Baron admits that he was secretly jealous of Ayase all along, before breaking the mind control with his willpower and ensuring his own arrest at the hands of his rival.
RIP Toriyama
Yeah even if there's a personal distaste for T-1000 killing a dog for a sketchy reason that prevented me from proposing him, it's still hard to actually call it—or anything the T-1000 or any other Terminator—does a petty or sadistic move. People can theorize the T-1000 has sadist tendencies all they want, but as presented in the movie it's just another robot doing it's terminating thing in a really cool, efficient way. There's no certifiable proof or even anything beyond implication that anything it does isn't purely for the sake of pragmatism and the mission.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I'm not sure he was that sadistic with the guy he stabbed....can you be sadistic when you stab someone directly through the brain like that? Like, death would be instantaneous and anything after would just be the body's involuntary reactions that the T-1000 is studying.
I can't even call it sadistic as it tortures Sarah. It's clearly going to stop/just kill her quick once it has John
Gotta love Jaws!
I'd just like to ask something, and I'm wondering this especially since it could theoretically mean that both versions of the T-1000 would count? Is hurting a helpless animal (not like a vicious predator or even hunting but just like a harmless domesticated dog or cat) inherently disqualifying? Because don't don't get me wrong, I ADORE cats and especially dogs but I feel like we might've had a candidate somewhere whose done that. I wouldn't mind outright making it instantly disqualifying since it's almost always a major Kick the Dog (literally) moment but I'm curious about this now.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Woagh
Well, we do have Agatha Harkess, who gleefully brags about killing Wanda and Visions dog, Sparky.
Still, it was so over the top and line crossing that it was hard to really disqualify her for that (well, the dog was also part of the simulation and probably not real, but still). More importantly, it was still part of her big plan, so bragging aside, there was a purpose other than "damn I'm evil lol".
to T-1000, somehow nearly forgot lol.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jul 21st 2021 at 3:35:24 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
The Draftsman of Doom
I mean, he ostensibly did kill the dog to silence it, and therefore evade detection. Make of that what you will.
Rawr.
Gotta love Jaws!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
True, tone factors into it quite a bit.
It WAS strictly pragmatic so it wasn't really a Kick the Dog I guess, though it's probably still framed as too bad.
I think the reason Ravok was hesitant is watching the scene, he didn't need to kill it. He just needed to look at its name tag.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 21st 2021 at 6:36:15 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Gotta love Jaws!
I will say this is definitely a case where I agree, that scene does evoke a lot of discomfort.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
On principle, animal cruelty is a big no-no to most people.
I think T-1000 killing Max while clearly not pleasant is not meant to be petty. It's just him exploring the I Never Said It Was Poison that got him outsmarted.
I do feel that it is very unsettling and he didn't need to kill it, hence why Ravok was so hesitant to EP that version. I do agree with Dood that Agatha killing Sparky is just presented in such an over the top manner that it becomes palatable. Having said that I pointedly do not remember what the purpose of killing Sparky was. I don't believe there was one, but again it's framed in such a funny and over-the-top way that I don't see it as disqualifying.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
We also remember, though, dogs can detect Terminators and are heavily unsettled in their presence. The dog wasn't letting him take a look.
He's a killer robot. It's what he does.
RIP Toriyama
"Stabbing guard in the eye, through his brain, for a near insta-kill and watching" does not = sadistic. The T-1000 killed the guy in seconds with a knife to the brain, it didn't torture him to death or some shit, lol, just cuz the guard's body twitched some does not mean the T-1000 explicitly was drawing his death out.
I'll reiterate: a knife to the shoulder, twisting it some, for the explicit reasoning of trying to lure a target out is not sadism. "He could have just morphed into Sarah to lure him"...yeah, it does that, after the stabbing Sarah part failed. It choosing a quicker route that plays on human emotions isn't some grand, Ramsay Bolton-level "his sadism screwed him over", it still almost won by the end. The T-1000 has one of the lowest bodycounts of any villainous Terminator in the franchise, and I think we're putting way too much stock into "sadism" when it's just using its natural powers of blade formation to kill targets quickly.
I can understand finding the T-1000 a bit too creepy/unnerving, but "too sadistic/cruel" shouldn't factor into this objectively, IMO. The thing is a machine who kills people in seconds and the one "torture" scene it has is explicitly to lure someone, I don't care if the stab victims' bodies convulse some.
Oh, and I'm not game to fault a dude for roaring in pain/defeat (it is not yelling "No!") as its blown to pieces and then melted alive by lava. Like, c'mon ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
And yeah, I think it's totally up to the person about Max and the T-1000 killing him. I found it possibly a mite too far since it amounts to "lemme make sure I've been fooled by killing this defenseless animal to check its collar in a rather disturbing scene", but it's also likely something that not everyone would find a step too far since it's still for a pragmatic reasoning. I myself have come around a bit and don't find it an outright Kick the Dog, but still a potentially questionable scene. Regardless I think it's kind of moot anyway, since the theatrical is the "original" version of the film anyway.
Edited by Ravok on Jul 21st 2021 at 4:15:29 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Gotta love Jaws!
"Regardless I think it's kind of moot anyway, since the theatrical is the "original" version of the film anyway."
Yeah it was admittedly not the most useful piece of information to bring up on my end given that fact.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
RIP Toriyama
Naw I think it was good to bring it up, I think it's very useful to discuss stuff like this so if cases come up where theatrical versions don't clean up the mess, we'll have precedent to discuss it. I think the T-1000 may very well have possibly kept even if the dog scene was in all versions, but it'd have been a far tougher discussion to be had.
Time for my last Ben 10 candidate!
Who is Verdona? What makes her a candidate?
The semi-recurring grandmother of Ben and Gwen, Verdona is an Anodite—an alien made of pure energy capable of such great feats of reality warping, telepathy and energy projection that it is thought to be magic by many (and indeed was portrayed that way in the show itself before Verdona's appearance).
Decades ago, Verdona escaped capture by a race of robotic entities that wanted to turn her into a battery. She did so by teaming up with earthling Max Tennyson, who she met on Earth and immediately gained an attraction to, and even with her powers sealed away in a bracelet by her captors, she uses what little power she has left in clever ways to help Max outsmart her attackers and take them down.
Starting an on-off relationship with Max that resulted in a couple of children, Verdona would routinely return to Earth to see if any of their kids or grandchildren had inherited her Anodite physiology, to no avail...until Alien Force. Verdona returns to Earth and, after a misunderstanding results in her mopping the floor with Ben and Kevin while trading barbs with them, she realizes her teenage granddaughter Gwen has Anodite powers.
Verdona begins goading Gwen into abandoning Earth and joining her in space as a free-spirited Anodite, sweet-talking the girl's parents and friends into liking the idea, but when Gwen herself decides to stay on Earth? Verdona proclaims she just "won't know until she tries" embracing her Anodite heritage, and decides to destroy Gwen's physical body to release her inner energy form.
Verdona once again duels Ben and Kevin over it—complimenting them several times on both skills and puns—and tries to force Gwen into abandoning her humanity until Gwen finally puts her foot down and assures Verdona that she likes being human and wants to remain that way.
Though disappointed, Verdona accepts Gwen's decision, restores her wrecked home and wounded friends to full health in a blink—showcasing just how much she was holding back in their fight—and departs from Earth, commending Ben and Kevin on being so willing to protect Gwen and informing Gwen she'll return periodically to make the same offer to her.
Verdona's final major appearance sees her show up at the end of an episode where her other granddaughter Sunny and partner Antonio have been menacing Gwen and Ben. Though the heroes can't beat them, Verdona arrives on the scene—having been tracking both of the troublemakers for some time—and instantly incapacitates them, once more offering Gwen the chance to embrace her energy form and be powerful before accepting Gwen's repeated desire to stay on Earth, Verdona flying off with Sunny and Antonio in tow for her to properly punish herself.
Is Verdona magnificent?
Most def, she's a Cool Old Lady (well, by human standards) with badass powers who is immensely charming, affable, cheerful and snarky. Even when beating down her grandkids she's extremely encouraging and complimentary towards their efforts, she uses sneaky tricks to turn their own powers against them, and even when she lacked the majority of her powers, she used the percentile left to help Max outsmart her captors.
Is she a bitch?
Verdona is definitely a "good" person who just wants what's best for those she cares for...but the fact that she's so ruthless as to destroy Gwen's body and force her into accepting Anodite physiology and powers—remarking that she might be able to reform a new body to live on Earth again in "60 or 70 years"—and puts the beat down on Ben and Kevin when they try to protect Gwen from this pushes her over for me. Even though she realizes the folly of trying to force it on Gwen by the end, she's not really...sorry about it and just accepts Gwen is still young and will likely, in time, come to see things Verdona's way regardless.
Final Verdict?
I'd say she's a Keep!
Edited by Ravok on Jul 21st 2021 at 4:27:25 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Verdona.
Yes to Verdona.
Goku Black
Yeah sure
Verdona.
Fun fact the first time I watched this. I forgot that since ben and Gwen we're cousins shed be Ben's grandmother too.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Funnily enough the Dog thing didn't really bug me.
Meh, I don't persoanlly agree with the arguments but I'm good with it.
One thing I'll respond too, it's admittedly nitpicky. He is shown screaming no in his death scene (https://youtu.be/0Kug8mJ8WiM)
to Verdona, I really gotta Rewatch these sometime.
Someone better do Rev-9, Gabriel Luna is amazing.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jul 21st 2021 at 1:06:18 AM