During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I put him up.
Didn't Film Magneto get written up at some point? I don't see him listed on MagnificentBastard.Film.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
I'm Sad Frogerson.
So, since Doctor Doom has gotten a unanimous 12 ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
, how should I approach his write-up? Should I make separate write-ups for each show, or just make a single one that covers all of his appearances?
A single one might be best. Dunno how to best format it. Perhaps we should have a "Marvel Animated Universe" section and have Dr Doom listed singularly with his deeds potholed to each show appropriately, then Kingpin from Spoderman and then whomever else has been or will be approved.
Got an effort post for the thread.
What’s the work?
Percy Jackson and the Olympians is a series of five books that are based around greek mythology. Multiple demi-gods, known as “half-bloods” reside in a camp to hone their skills as well as to protect them from monsters due to magical borders. In the story, there’s a prophecy stating that, on their 16th birthday, a demi-god child from one of the “big three” (Poseidon, Zeus, or Hades) will make a decision that’ll either lead to the destruction of Olympus, or save it. And our candidate tries to make sure that the decision leads to the former option.
Who is? What does he do?
Luke Castellan is The Dragon for the series’ Big Bad, Kronos, and is a son of Hermes, god of messengers and thieves. As a child, Luke was terrified of his mother, May Castellan, due to her going insane from a curse indirectly placed on her when she tried to become the next Oracle (Hades placed a curse on the Oracle out of spite as the aforementioned prophecy led to Zeus killing one of his wives, and nearly killing two of his demi-god children). Luke ran away and met up with two other runaway demi-gods. Thalia Grace, daughter of Zeus, and Annabeth Chase, daughter of Athena. The three attempted to head to Camp Half-Blood, but several monsters that were chasing them caught up, and Thalia nearly died protecting Annabeth and Luke (Zeus saves her life by turning her into a pine tree though which is the source of the Camp’s magical barrier). To try and make him feel better, Hermes out of desperation give Luke a quest to steal golden apples from the garden of Hesperides. Luke failed, his heart not in it since he knew the quest meant nothing and was just a repeat of what was done before by Hercules, was scarred by the dragon, and returned to camp with nothing but pity and no word from his father. This was the straw that broke the camel’s back, and led to Luke wishing to destroy Olympus.
The spirit of Kronos sensed Luke’s hatred and, in Luke’s dreams, offered Luke to work for him. Luke accepted. Throughout the years, Luke manipulated several other half-bloods who felt neglect and resentment towards their godly parents, especially the ones who have been yet to be claimed/were children of gods without cabins, and had them work under him and Kronos, either as spies or as fighters in the army. In order to set up `a war between the gods, Luke stole Hades’s Helm of Darkness and Zeus’s Master Bolt. Unfortunately for Luke, when he attempts to steal the objects, Ares the god of war caught him, and beat him in battle. However, Luke manages to appeal to Ares’s love of war by convincing him how a full scale war would break out if the objects are stolen. As a result, Ares helps out Luke in his plan. When Percy is claimed by Poseidon in The Lightning Thief, Luke and Ares frame Percy for it, planning to have Hades kill Percy in the underworld to have Poseidon hate Hades, and Zeus hate Hades in belief that it was Hades who stole the bolt meanwhile Hades would believe that one of the two sent Percy to steal his Helm. Luke also summons a Hellhound within Camp Half-Blood to try and kill Percy, making Chiron and Dionysus believe Hades is the one responsible and trying to kill Percy.
To try and make sure Percy is out of the picture when they near the underworld, Luke gives Percy cursed winged shoes meant to drag him down to the underworld. Unfortunately, Chiron tells Percy that flight as a son of Poseidon is risky as it’s Zeus’s territory, so Percy gives the shoes to Grover, and in Luke’s words, since Grover messes up everything he touches he was capable of messing up the curse. When Percy returns to Camp Half Blood after escaping the Underworld and fighting off Ares, Luke convinces Percy to come hang out in the woods so the two can fight monsters together before Percy goes back home when summer ends, offering caffeinated sodas he stole from outside the camp to ensure the 12 year old boy will accept. Luke then summons a pit scorpion when they’re far away enough from camp to leap onto Percy. Not wanting to risk losing a fight to Percy, Luke teleports away, sending a burst of dark energy to startle the scorpion and sting Percy. Thankfully, wood nymphs find Percy and save his life before the poison can kill him.
In The Sea of Monsters, Luke poisoned Thalia’s tree, weakening the barriers protecting Camp Half-Blood. He then frames Chiron for it, causing him to get fired. When Percy, Annabeth, and Tyson sneak out of camp to find the cure to Thalia’s tree, they discover that Luke has gained access to a large cruise ship known as the Princess Andromeda, using it to serve as the base of operations for Kronos’ Army. When Luke discovers Percy, Tyson, and Annabeth, he ‘tells’ his plan about using The Golden Fleece to resurrect Kronos.
The three get off the ship and, after many days of travel, return with The Golden Fleece (and satyr Grover Underwood). However, Luke and his army of monsters intercept them, Luke knowing it would be easier to wait for them to get the Fleece and take the spoils from them rather than risk the lives of his men to go to the Sea of Monsters. Unfortunately for him, Percy reveals that they gave the Fleece to Clarisse, daughter of Ares who was officially assigned the quest, and also tricks Luke into admitting that he was the one at fault for poisoning Thalia (Percy had an Iris message to Dionyssus at the ready, and summed up Luke’s actions, Luke confirming it without knowing about the Iris message). The heroes escape again with the help of Chiron, his relatives, and several pegasi imprisoned on the Andromeda. But when they use the Fleece to heal Thalia’s tree, they find out what Luke’s true plan was (stealing the Fleece from the heroes was either a decoy, or an extra possible plan). The Fleece would make Thalia a human again, effectively giving Kronos another child of the Big Three to manipulate into destroying Olympus with Luke and Kronos knowing that Percy won’t help (And, while it fails, Thalia does come pretty damn close to giving Kronos’s army a sea cow-beast that’ll give the power to destroy Olympus)
Luke’s Demoted to Dragon in the third book, The Titan’s Curse, but he still shows his manipulative nature. Luke and the Big Bad of the book, Atlas, are trying to stop Artemis from finding and killing the Ophiotaurus, the aforementioned sea cow-beast, before they do. Luke devises a plan to have Annabeth kidnapped, have her hold the sky, which will convince Artemis to hold the sky and save Annabeth’s life as shes a protector of young maidens. To do this, Luke holds the sky, putting his own life at risk, and manages to trick Annabeth into helping him hold it up, taking advantage of how she still cares for him due to the years they spent travelling together. He still shows concern for Annabeth, is relieved when Atlas captures Artemis before Annabeth can die, and Atlas tries to pull a You Have Outlived Your Usefulness on Annabeth, Luke convinces him to let her live as she can still serve as bait for Percy to save her life. During the climax, he seemingly dies when Thalia kicks him off a cliff.
In Battle of the Labyrinth, he reveals that he’s alive and well, and as the plan to revive Kronos through the Ophiotaurus failed, the last resort is for him to serve as a host for Kronos’s spirit. Luke’s initially horrified, even trying to convince a truth to Annabeth, but when Annabeth turns him down, the hurt Luke feels causes him to go through with it. Luke tricks his insane mother into giving him her blessing to bathe in the River Styx to become invincible so that his body can handle Kronos’s spirit. (it’s a requirement to have a mother give her blessing for it to work) He later manipulates the inventor, Daedalus, into giving him the string of Ariadne to map out a route to Camp Half-blood through the labyrinth for an attack, later sending his forces to try and kill Daedalus. One obstacle got in the way. Antaeus the half-giant, son of Poseidon and Gaea, owned territory that Luke needed to get through, and he’d only give Luke’s forces permission if they entertain him with fights. When Luke captures Percy, Annabeth, and Rachel the mortal, he has Percy fight. Eventually, Percy challenges Antaeus and kills him, and with that, Luke no longer had to worry about crossing Antaeus’s territory. He’s last seen having Kronos’ spirit possess his body at a later point in the book before Kronos takes over.
In The Last Olympian, it’s revealed that he had Silena Beauregard, daughter of Aphordite, leak information about Camp Half-Blood to him, tricking her into thinking that nobody will get hurt. Through this, when Percy and Charles Beckendorf (son of Hephaestus) try to explode the Princess Andromeda, Kronos’ forces are ready for them. The plan still succeeds, but it costs Charles his life. Luke doesn’t do much until the end the book as Kronos is possessing his body, but during the climax, after seeing the pain that he caused to his friend Annabeth along with how it’s evident how Kronos doesn’t truly intend to make things better for neglected Half-Bloods like him, he finds the strength to temporarily take back control, convinces Percy to give him a knife and he stabs himself in his weakpoint, killing himself, and destroying Kronos’ consciousness. Percy wouldn’t know where to stab him as all but one part of Luke’s body was invincible due to the River Styx. (Percy puts together that giving Luke the blade was the choice the oracle was referring to)
How do his actions show himself to be a Magnificent Bastard?
Luke wins over countless demigods to join him with his kind and friendly attitude as well as taking advantage of the resentment they hold to their parents. He’s more than capable of thinking on his feet in case things don’t go as planned such as manipulating Ares when the god caught him, or with getting the heroes to inadvertently get Thalia back to normal that nearly sped up the prophecy.
Too much of a bastard?
Nope. Luke’s a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds through and through, genuinely wishes to make the world a better place for demi-gods (with Percy convincing the gods to follow on his will by getting them to promise to be less negligent to their children as well as giving the minor gods more respect) and despite being a lying backstabber, he still shows on plenty of occasions to care for his old friends Annabeth and Thalia, and is genuinely guilty when he hurts Annabeth.
Any other mitigating factors?
Not really. He's fairly sarcastic and can be smarmy, but he goes out of his way to avoid being a Smug Snake, hesitant on fighting Percy multiple times because he doesn't want to make the same mistake Ares made by underestimating him. Anything resembling sadism he shows is stated within the books to be facade to look strong to Kronos, and he's outright disgusted by actions of the sadistic empousa, Kelli, who enjoys seducing, killing, and eating victims. He was tricked by Percy into revealing his plans in the second book, but I don't think being tricked is a disqualifier for MB if they also pull several deceptions themselves.
Final thoughts?
I’m leaning yes.
Chang and Luke.
Bigger Luke
I'm Sad Frogerson.
I guess I'll do my Doom write-up sometime tomorrow.
It's been a while since I last read the Percy Jackson series. I remember Kronos was the main mastermind of the series and Luke was mostly doing his bidding. He was the one who told Luke what to say to convince Ares to help them in "The Lightning Thief", and it was his plan to use the Golden Fleece to resurrect Thalia.
However, Luke was the one calling the shots on the smaller scale and running the day-to-day operations of the Titan army. Luke was pretty much running the show for both "Titan's Curse" and "Battle of the Labyrinth". He's also the one to finally defeat Kronos, ultimately saving the day. I'll give him a .
to Luke
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 21st 2018 at 4:38:14 AM
@chase: A MB doesn't have to be the overall Big Bad or Final Boss. I mean why else would Kuja and Kurei have gotten approved when they are The Dragon to Garland and Kouran Mori respectively? I mean Kuja and Kurei both kill their masters/father figures, so there's that.
Also Joshua was originally on the side of the heroes, but he manipulated them Alex from Golden Sun-style and led them to achieve his own desired result of Kitaniji's erasure and "winning" the game.
With that said, Luke gets a Yes from me.
And a late to Dr. 1st Person Demon Shooter (Doom).
Edited by Klavice on Sep 21st 2018 at 9:51:09 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure on Luke and late yes to Dr. Doom.
@Klavice I kind of agree with you. An MB doesn't need to be the Final Boss or Big Bad.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Goku Black
luke
@Awseome4kid: There's a question I've been meaning to ask. Is there any reason Chronos doesnt count there as a CM. I've seen him come up multiple times on the cm thread through searches but could never get a definitive answer.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Ah okay. Thanks for the info
Edited by miraculous on Sep 22nd 2018 at 7:11:25 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
IIRC, Kronos fails the heinous standard. The Greek gods have done some pretty awful things, Demeter intending to have nearly all life on earth die out due to Persephone's kidnapping being a stand out.
This was on Karmen Rider Build
- Magnificent Bastard: Where to begin with Evolt? He destroyed Mars and planned to do the same for Earth. In his plan he sends his body to Earth and then comes back with his soul to Earth. After failing to destroy the Earth once he sets up a plan to try again in 10 years, manipulating everyone from government leaders to evil businessmen. Every move anyone makes even if they don't know it all help him with his plan to destroy the Earth.
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Absolute no to him. He's an utter monster and well plenty of badguys in the franchise want to kill off humanity, he lacks any of the sympathetic or likable features that true MB's for the franchise being guys like Sagitarius Zodiarts, Freeze Roidumude, Para-Dox and Genm have.
He also has a really bad Villainous Breakdown's when things dont go his way and is also needlessly cruel all the time. He proves to be a Smug Snake who thinks he's an MB like Light and Aizen in the end. Cool villain none the less though.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Well, here's my write-up for Doom. I'm following PolarPhantom's suggestion to make this one entry, but we can play around with how it'll be formatted later. Right now, here's the meat of the write-up:
- Doctor Victor Von Doom is the ruler of Latveria and a master of both science and the mystic arts. After losing his parents under a tyrannical regime and being disfigured in a horrific lab accident, Doom declared he would bring peace to the world under his iron fist. He feuded with the Fantastic Four on numerous occasions and was the one who destroyed their headquarters at the Baxter Building. Doom has twice stolen the powers of the Silver Surfer and tricked the Hulk into nearly killing the Thing. When the UN ordered him to be tried for war crimes, Doom trapped Washington D.C. under a force field and forced the Hulk to destroy the entire capital. Doom was the most successful villain during the Secret Wars and transformed the territories he conquered into utopias free from conflict or strive. Managing to even steal the powers of the almighty Beyonder, Doctor Doom has proven he has one of the most cunning and audacious minds in the Marvel Animated Universe.
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to DOOOOOOOOM and Luke.
To answer the inquiry about Strange from The Batman... he's a possibility. I could see him counting, his ultimate defeat is pretty predictable and he really should have seen it coming, but I can't hold TOO much against him since he pretty much did succeed in getting what he wanted, it just... wasn't what he thought it was.
Next proposal from me...from one of my favorite animated movies, one of my favorite superhero movies, and probably my second favorite animated superhero movie....
What's the work?
Batman: Under the Red Hood is a 2010 animated film by DC and Warner Bros. starring the titular Batman. In the opening, we witness Batman's partner, the second Robin (Jason Todd) being beaten then murdered by Joker. Flash forward years, and a mysterious new villain arrives in Gotham, briskly taking over much of the criminal underworld.
As Batman combats this "Red Hood" as he calls himself, the hero will come to learn that the masked baddie is someone far closer to him than any other villain he's faced...
Our candidate today? Red Hood himself.
Who is Jason Todd/Red Hood? What makes him a candidate?
Jason Todd was once a delinquent child found by Batman while he was trying to rip off the Batmobile. Taken in by the Dark Knight, Todd was raised to be Batman's second Robin, spending years training and becoming the young hero under Batman's wing.
However, as Todd became more and more brutal in his methods, believing criminals deserved no mercy, he was attacked, captured, and beaten with a crowbar by the insane supervillain the Joker. After being brutalized for a long while with said crowbar, Todd was then killed by an explosive triggered by Joker.
Todd was soon brought back to life by the warlord Ra's Al Ghul, seeking recompense for freeing the Joker in the first place, and escaped Ghul into the night.
Years later, Todd returns to a Gotham whose underworld is controlled by mob boss Black Mask....calling himself the Red Hood and disguised in a badass outfit, Todd organizes a meeting between many of the crime lords of Gotham, terrories them with gunfire, and offers them a deal: To betray Black Mask and work for him instead, and in exchange he will not only increase their profits, but offer them protection from Batman. He only asks two things in return, absolute loyalty, and no drug dealing to or otherwise targeting children.
Though the bosses express doubt, Todd convinces them by showing them a bag...
"Those are the heads of your lieutenants in that bag. That took me two hours. You wanna see what I can get done in a whole evening?"
This convincing the crime lords to ally with him, Todd begins disrupting Black Mask's organization, costing him millions and executing several of his thugs in ingenious schemes, and when Batman captures and tries to interrogate a trio of Red Hood's goons, Todd snipes them dead from afar to keep them from talking.
Chased not once, but twice by Batman and the original Robin, now known as Nightwing, and flawlessly escaping them both times with quick thinking and excellent strategy, Todd later comes under attack from four high-tech assassins hired by Black Mask, and fights + stalls them until Batman arrives and assists him, knowing the hero would have been keeping track of his movements.
Murdering one of the assassins, but not before tanking a shot from one just to save Batman's skin, Todd escapes and continues to screw with Black Mask, going so far as to fire a rocket straight into his office, until finally driving Mask to the method Todd has been wanting all along....to use his connections to free the only man who could take on Red Hood from Arkham...the Joker himself.
As Joker is freed by Black Mask, Todd waits for him to make a public appearance trying to burn Black Mask and his minions alive, planning to wait for him to kill the crime lords before making his move against the clown, however Batman arrives, saves Black Mask, and tries to take Joker in...Todd captures Joker himself, brings him to an abandoned building, and promptly beats him with a crowbar as revenge for all those years ago.
When Batman arrives, Todd reveals his ideology that crime truly can't be stopped, and instead can simply be regulated, and so he's taking control of Gotham's underworld simply to stop worse crimes from happening. Though Todd then duels Batman blow to blow, using his own helmet as a bomb among other clever tricks, Batman destroys much of his weapons, leading Todd to initiate the final part of his plan. Holding Joker at gunpoint, Todd chastises Batman for sparing the villain, stating that he forgives Batman for not saving him from death, but that what really hurts....is that Batman never avenged him by ending Joker.
Though Batman argues that he doesn't kill Joker because he believes that once he STARTS killing, he'd start killing every member of his Rogue's Gallery down to the petty offenders, Todd refuses to accept the reasoning, proclaiming Joker is different than the other villains, that he's an "evil, death-worshiping piece of garbage" who deserves to be "sent straight to hell," and so tosses Batman a gun and gives him an ultimatum: Either shoot Todd, or Todd shoots Joker.
When Batman drops his gun and pretends to walk away, Todd tries to shoot him down only for Batman to fling a Batarang and knock the gun from his hands...however, in a final move, Todd activates explosives he set in the building, trying to take himself, Batman, and Joker all down in one swoop, and though Batman tries to save Todd over Joker, the end result is Batman and Joker surviving, and Todd's body nowhere to be found....
Is Todd a Chessmaster? Manipulative Bastard? Capable of Xanatos Speed Chess?
Absolutely. Todd handily takes over a chunk of Gotham's underworld through intimidation and fear, all while executing his B-plot to draw Joker out of Arkham to kill him or convince Batman to, and consistently stays one step ahead of everyone else until the very end, despite meeting several setbacks and nearly dying numerous times over.
How much of a Bastard is he? Is he charming? Does he have any traits worthy of respect?
Todd's got a nice bodycount on his hands, and though they are all criminals, they range from crime boss lieutenants to petty thugs, and several of them he kills in particularly gruesome ways.
Ultimately, though? They are all only targeted as part of Todd's war on crime, and he explicitly PREVENTS worse crimes like drug dealing to children from continuing, and considering he's sharing the spotlight with the Joker.... he's not nearly to the point of his Bastardry being a problem towards counting.
For charm and respectable qualities...Todd has both in spades. He's a Deadpan Snarker, is legitimately funny at times and ruthlessly terrifying at others, and is his point about killing Joker can easily be seen as a legitimate argument.
Todd is admittedly a bit on the emotional side, getting more and more emotional during the final confrontation with himself, Batman, and Joker, culminating in him nearly screaming at Batman "IT'S HIM OR ME!" trying to get Batman to either shoot him or watch him shoot Joker, and tries to murder the hero when he rejects both options, but this isn't portrayed as a Villainous Breakdown so much as him getting frustrated at Batman for his ridiculous "moral code", and Todd's emotional side isn't portrayed as a weakness, it's a fundamental part of his personality and actually assists in his character's charm.
Final Verdict?
Though Todd is a pitiable character, he's nonetheless a magnificent one. Throughout the story, he wants only three things: To "manage" crime in Gotham and make it so lesser innocents are hurt, to get revenge on Joker for killing him, and to prove to Batman that his methods of crimefighting don't work. These are all on the understandable side, he works his way towards them with plenty of improvisation and scheming, and his character as a whole is charming as hell.
I say Keep.
Edited by Ravok on Sep 22nd 2018 at 2:45:36 PM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Red Hoodman.
Red/Todd sounds like another Dark Messiah type character. I like it! Definite yes to him.
Out of curiosity, for those who have played The Simpsons Hit and Run, do Kang and Kodos qualify in that? Aside from raising the dead (the characters do worse things than that in the Treehouse of Horror specials) they aren't that evil and I think they're taken seriously enough to the point they are a threat. I'm not sure if they themselves are too silly though they are taken seriously.
Edited by Klavice on Sep 23rd 2018 at 4:27:06 AM
Goku Black
Red Hood
Love that film. Like I think its one of the best Batman films IMO.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Red Hood
I'm Sad Frogerson.
to the Red Hood.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure on Red Hood
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Sure to Luke and the Red Hood. As I said on the CM thread, there's been a power outage that's hit most of Ottawa and that's why I've been MIA for a bit. To be frank on it, the lack of internet and such has got me in a pretty bad mood so I'm going to worry about looking into Film!Magneto, updating the to do list and posting whatever's in the drafts when I feel better.
Who is currently leading discussion on Vayne Solidor if he's not already up?
I'm talking about the Big Bad of Final Fantasy XII. If he was rejected can someone tell me why?