During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The Moron
Hey ya'll, I got the Johnson & Johnson vaccine today - hooray for full vaccination! - but the side effects are starting to hit me like a freight train, so I probably won't be very active tomorrow. I might still lurk, but that'll probably be it. If you happen to get that particular shot, brace yourself for shivers and soreness - it hits you something fierce.
I feel you star. Those sucked, be prepared for some fatigue tomorrow. Anyway I'm all for reopening the discussion on Samuel.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Hmm...watching it now? The main issues are:
He thought he was serving the Father's will at one point, but it was actually Davoth (who IS the true father, but still)...and he becomes more arrogant over lesser beings, telling the Slayer "You should be grateful, despite your transgressions, you've been given the honor of serving the gods yet again."
Despite this...he is still a charismatic, brilliant mastermind whose deeds with the Slayer, Pierce and earth were all his....but it remains to be seen if this keeps, since he's still at large by the end.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Muffy, Davoth, Doom Slayer, Tesseract, Propeller Knight and Silas
Yes to Muffy, Davoth, Doom Slayer, Tesseract, Propeller Knight and Silas.
This is more or less a joke, but wondering if I should do an effort post on the truly great Machiavellian schemer and criminal mastermind, Fatty Bones Malone.
Got my first MB proposal.
What's the work?
The light novel series Magical Girl Raising Project depicts a world where magical girls exist to secretly help out people in their ordinary lives. Normally they just do that on a day to day basis, but when those with cruel ideologies start working towards their ambitions, it tends to lead to lots of death. This candidate comes from the Restart arc, where 16 magical girls are trapped in a virtual world and need to complete it to escape or die trying. One of those 16 is the magical girl Nokko.
Who is she?
Noriko Nonohara, more known by her magical girl persona of Nokko, has been a magical girl ever since the age of 4. 6 years have passed since then, meaning she's a veteran at the age of 10. Her special ability is to manipulate the emotions of others. Whatever she is feeling, she can transfer that feeling to others around her. If she is scared, she can others feel scared as well. This has given her plenty of experience of controlling her own emotions and manipulating other people. While a magical girl is supposed to help others, she mostly used her powers to take care of herself. This is because her mother is hospitalized while her father abandoned them. She just wants money in order to help her mother. She's a little more selfish than ideal, but not inherently a bad person. Regardless, she does place her own interests above the well-being of others.
What does she do?
In the years before the game started, she was recruited by her supervisor to assist the magical girl Cranberry. Cranberry was running death games as part of her tests to create new magical girls. In order to make the candidates more willing to fight each other, Nokko was told to rile them up. Since she was getting paid and could otherwise do whatever she wanted, she did so. Even at her young age she realized what she was doing was wrong, but she valued the money too much. Eventually Cranberry was killed during the events of the first arc (which Nokko likely had no involvement in), leading to Nokko losing her lax supervisor and source of income. Her new supervisor wants her to be active in helping people, which she does by making her class always bright and happy. This isn't outright villainous, but it is creepy.
One day she and 15 other magical girls are suddenly transported to a virtual reality game world. They are told to complete the game's objective if they are to permanently escape, as otherwise they will perpetually be forcefully logged in every three days for three days in the game (no time passes in the real world). Naturally death in the game means death in real life. The game is combat focused, which isn't Nokko's specialty, but that's not her main problem. The other players have the goal of defeating the Evil King, which they assume means going through the game's worlds and defeating monsters. Nokko however is assigned the role of the Evil King, with the goal of getting the other 15 players killed by any means possible. Nokko is assigned this role because of her role in Cranberry's tests. The others don't remember it, but they were all survivors of Cranberry's exams. This is a test to see if the others are truly worthy of being magical girls, as is Nokko herself.
Nokko initially considers confessing her role to the others in order to avoid getting anyone else killed, since she was never fond of Cranberry's death games. But she couldn't bring herself to sacrifice herself due to her mother. She knows some of them from the tests, and she's good at reading people in general, so she sets about manipulating them. She urges those who dislike each other to escalate their conflicts. One of the players is already secretly willing to kill the others, which Nokko knows about, so Nokko can easily nudge her to continue her rampage. When she sees divisions between friends, her magic sows further distrust between them. Her magic and cute appearance make it easy to convince her fellow players want to protect her. One by one the players died, with Nokko herself not having to lift a finger.
Eventually the players whittle their numbers down to a small enough number that Nokko has a real chance of winning. She fakes her own death by digging up the corpse of one of her friends, burning it with a flamethrower, and leaving her magical phone behind. Then she hides where the remaining three will eventually gather. Once they do so she induces suspicion and hate among them to get them to kill each other, and she plans to guilt the last survivor into suicide. They manage to figure out her scheme at the last minute and find her however. Nokko accepts her defeat, requests that they give some of the reward money from the game to her mother, and kills herself so that they won't have to dirty their hands anymore.
Is she magnificent?
She's 10 years old and already a master manipulator. She reads people like a book and knows how to push their buttons so that they'll fulfill her agenda. Her emotion manipulation magic is powerful, but only due to years of practice and refinement on her part. She's outnumbered and has no chance in a straight up fight, but she reduces 15 foes, several of which could qualify for this trope themselves or are extremely powerful fighters, into a mere 3. She only loses due to a combination of bad luck and one of the remaining players being in her own class of intelligence. Even when beaten, she goes out with grace while negotiating a benefit to her mother.
Is she a bastard?
This is where I'm most hesitant on, since again she's 10 and just wants to look out for her mother. Still, it's hard to overlook that she helped facilitate numerous death games for money. During normal times she eschews her magical girl duties to focus on herself. She is essentially the main antagonist of the arc she's in, letting magical girls she knows are good people die so that she can live and reap the monetary rewards. While she has no guarantee that a way for everyone to live was possible, she could have explained her position as the Evil King to the others at the start and tried to work with them. Ultimately, while she's always sympathetic and doesn't deserve what happened to her, she is the villain for a reason.
Competition
The series as a whole has several clever magical girls who could easily qualify on their own merits, one of whom is involved in this arc and survives, who I plan on proposing next. But contained within Restart alone she's easily the most impressive character for this trope. Others may have a longer lasting impact, but for who she is and her role in the story, I think she stands out just fine.
Verdict
She's both clever and villainous enough for this, but her circumstances do make it difficult to see her as a bastard. Still, I think she does enough that she qualifies.
Doom Slayer
Late Yes to Doom Slayer, missed him before somehow
Here is Silas:
Call of Juarez: Gunslinger: Silas Greaves is the legendary Bounty Hunter, who made fought against many famous outlaws, out-maneuevering and defeating nearly all of them. After his brothers were murdered by three bandits, Mr. Ringo, Roscoe "Bob" Bryant and Jim, Silas embarked on a quest to get enough skills and hunt them down. Crossing path with historical figures, like Billy The Kid, Old Man Clinton, Henry Plummer, Dalton Brothers, Jesse James, Sundance Kid and Butch Cassidy, along the way, Silas defeated and outtricked all of them, escaping every death trap he ended up in. Succesfully tracking down Mr. Ringo and Jim and killing them in a duel, Silas started to wonder if he became worse than them, due to killing far more people than they ever had. Finally tracking down "Bob" in the bar of one town, Silas arrived there and tells the exadurate tale of his adventures, specifically to figure out who "Bob" was among the people there. Upon discovering that "Bob" is called Ben now and leads a peaceful life, Silas reveals his true identity and, depending on the ending, can either forgive him or carry on with his revenge, killing "Bob" in the view of the people.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Apr 2nd 2021 at 3:46:43 PM
Welcome and Nokko sounds like a yes. Just like I said on CM I'm reserving the live-action adaptation of Eva.
The Draftsman of Doom
to Nokko
Yes to Nokko.
Okay, so I was looking at the "So you want to want to write an MB?" page, and who ever did the Walter White passage did an incredible job. I wanted to redeem myself by proposing another character that almost qualifies as an MB, but fails due to overpride or being too unlikable or something.
I'm thinking we use the original Walter White, Michael Corleone as a warning. And as a bonus we can even reference his father in there — who's an official MB!
Or if that doesn't work, we can always just stick with Emperor Palpatine, who comes so close to meaning all the requirements, then effs it up in his final outing (both of them)
So what do you think? Do either of these examples work for you?
Umm another huge problem with palpatine, which the thread has talked about extensively, is his rampant sadism and monstrous actions in both the Legends continuity and the new canon continuity. He's too bad to be this even without his end. So I would be against listing him.
I cannot speak for Michael Corleone.
Edit: Nokko. Nice Tragic Villain keeper.
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 2nd 2021 at 12:04:25 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The Moron
Corleone might be worth an entry (it's been a hot minute since I've seen those movies), but yeah, Palpatine's just a straight-up no-go.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Killmonger might also be worth a shot, but I wouldn't agree with a Vader entry. Mainstream Vader has always been cool, but he's never been this.
Also, to Nokko.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 2nd 2021 at 12:39:13 PM
Yeah, Michael’s another much like Walt where you’d think everything would be there and it certainly is, except there’s tragic flaws that keep each from being this. I also wonder if Vader and Killmonger are each worth giving a Proceed with Caution entry to as well.
Yeah, Palpatine’s cruelty and vileness is so "palpable" (haha) that he can’t possibly be this ever. Cleverness alone is definitely not enough, efficiency alone is not enough and ethics and standards alone are not enough. There has to be a combination of all of them without hinderance.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 2nd 2021 at 9:25:11 AM
Vader's a clear no need to add and I don't think Palpatine is either... he's a complete asshole who just happens to be a competent manipulator.
The wifi here sucks
Yeah, I don't think Palpatine was ever close to this, too sadistically evil. I would be ok with Michael and Killmonger going up (I can also help a bit with Michael if you need it, though I've only seen parts 1 and 2)
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
The Moron
Well then, since I'm feeling better than I expected and love Black Panther, I'll get an entry for Killmonger for us to decide on in a little bit.
Yes I did, but reading my post back I get the confusion ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 2nd 2021 at 1:54:39 PM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
We've discussed him already.
It was determined he didn’t count not only due to racial motivations, but because his maturity was stinted as well.
Oh. Makes sense.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 2nd 2021 at 10:52:26 AM
I think he means a treat with caution entry for SoYouWantTo.Write A Magnificent Bastard
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I have a potential Invincible MB I'm kicking about, too..anyone know the series?
Xie did the currently listed keeper.
I was simply curious since he was my first keep; I actually haven't done the Eternal stuff myself yet. Did not intend to call for a reopening.