During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Alright... long overdue, this, but I've got a part to play in the Redwall proposals after Lighty got Mokkan up.
What's the setting?
This one's from Salamandastron, the fifth book in the series and one of the earlier ones in the series chronology. We focus on the titular mountain, Salamandastron, traditionally ruled over a Badger Lord (in this case, Urthstripe the Strong, with his brother Urthwyte his chronological successor) and vigilantly defended by the band of hares and rabbits called the Long Patrol. In the midst of fever season with the sword of Martin stolen, the true peril of the story comes when Urthstripe learns of a band of vermin called the Corpsemakers coming from the southwest. Leading them is Ferahgo the Assassin.
Who is Ferahgo? What has he done?
A ruthless but charming pine marten (one of the only of his kind in the series, too) with disarming blue eyes, a way with words, and a penchant for knives and skinning with the pelts of his enemies worn around his waste, Ferahgo is the warlord leading the Corpsemakers, one of the largest and deadliest vermin armies in the series. His second-in-command is his own son, Klitch. Klitch is... incompetent, cowardly, and ambitious, occasionally trying to play against his father or murder/usurp him. Ferahgo always defuses the little upstart's treacherous plots, but always spares him and keeps him around anyways, partially to constantly keep himself on his feet at the possibility of treachery and partially because he actually does love the little freak.
Now, Ferahgo? Is hellbent on conquering Salamandastron, to find the riches within and make them his own. In the past, Ferahgo disarmed the parents of Urthstripe and Urthwyte with his charm and trickery before killing them, leaving the infants to die in the cold and conquering the lands of the Southwest for himself. Ferahgo has his minions scout Salamandastron for weaknesses and entryways, while rooting out any failed minions to kill them as an example. Ferahgo tries a variety of strategies to get into Salamandastron, first via enlisting the services of a poisoner to poison Salamandastron's food and water, then by trying to burrow into the mountain itself... which results in boiling water being poured down the tunnels and Ferahgo escaping with hideous burns. Even in his horribly injured state, though? Ferahgo's no less lethal and tricks two treacherous minions of his into assassinating a minion he sets up as a decoy, before killing them.
Eventually, while Salamadastron's forces recoup from the constant battle, Ferahgo launches an all-out assault and even manages to take over Salamandastron, trying to kill all his enemies while he has them at his mercy. However, reinforcements arrive and the final battle begins, ending with Ferahgo confronting Urthstripe, who's been consumed by Bloodwrath. For those who don't know? Badgers are almost unstoppable juggernauts in a normal day, but possessed by Bloodwrath, they become animalistic, tireless berserkers capable of effortlessly slaughtering anything in their path.
...in an inhuman display of courage and valor, Ferahgo refuses to go out like a coward like the vast, vast majority of Redwall's villains do and goes out swinging, managing to fatally gut Urthstripe while Urthstripe tackles him and plunges them both right off the top of Salamandastron, both of them fighting to the last.
What's his competition like?
In his own book? Nobody he doesn't outsmart. In the rest of the series? Ferahgo stands unique among Redwall villains for a few reasons. He's genuinely a lot smarter than a lot of Redwall baddies (compare, say, Gulo the Savage who's main strategies consist of "let his minions do all the work" and "eat it" or Ublaz who's "kill anyone who looks at me funny regardless of if it turns my own minions against me") and while he's probably matched in upfront cunning by characters like Swartt and Slagar, he's also got another major up on them — he's not a coward. Ferahgo's as treacherous and underhanded as the usual Redwall villain, but unlike, say, Slagar who literally trips and falls to his death while he's running to save his own ass, or Kurda who runs and falls on her own sword, or Vilaya, who runs and falls on... her own poison dagger (see a pattern here?) Ferahgo confronts a Bloodwrath-induced badger and manages to slay him even at the cost of his own life. Insane props to him for that, and I think that really goes the extra mile to distinguish him.
Is he too much of a bastard?
Well, he's a Redwall villain. Jacques didn't do subtlety. He a conniving murderer, a Bad Boss, and he's got a noted tendency to skin his enemies and wear their hides as trophies. As gruesome as that all is? Ferahgo's far from the worst of the lot. His cruelty never becomes especially gratuitous and his Bad Boss moments are often reserved to those who deserve it (like the two who try and kill him, who he effortlessly outsmarts even when he's reeling back from terrible injuries that should impair his action) and the rest never goes beyond par for the usual Redwall conqueror. Plus, amazingly enough, he's not bereft of redeeming qualities, either; Ferahgo, as standoffish as he is to his son Klitch, really does love the little brat and allows him to be a commander despite his ineptitude, while stating he'll always, always spare him even in spite of his attempts on Ferahgo's life. Why? Because he's his son.
How does he operate?
Charming, persuasive, and Faux Affably Evil defined. Ferahgo's repeatedly noted for his disarming level of cunning, winning adversaries over with his guile and pretty blue eyes and smile before gutting them. As said? Ferahgo's as cunning and stylish as it gets for Redwall, with no especially major slip-ups on his part throughout the book, and he's got enough Villainous Valor to take on a Badger Lord one-on-one. Enough said.
Conclusion?
Ferahgo's one of the easiest keeps I can think of in Redwall.
Thoughts?
Edited by Scraggle on Aug 20th 2018 at 4:50:53 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ferahgo
Remember reading that a looong time ago, yes to Ferahgo.
Sorry folks, didn't check the bottom of the last page. Yes to Zytek and Ally.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 20th 2018 at 7:04:18 AM
Easy yes to Ferahgo. Though one note? He's a weasel, not a marten.
My mistake. Got him conflated with Ublaz there (not sure why as he's one of the least capable villain leaders in the series... that and there's only like three pine martens in the entire series).
Edited by Scraggle on Aug 20th 2018 at 5:01:43 AM
to Ferahgo
The Unknown Unknown
Zytak, Ally, and Ferahgo.
Zytak, Ally, Ferahgo
So in honor of N. K. Jemisin becoming the first author to win the best novel Hugo Award three years in a row, I figured that I would finally get around to doing an effort post I've been meaning to do for a while.
What is the work?
The Killing Moon is the first book in N.K. Jemisin's Dreamblood Duology. It focuses on the Kingdom of Gujaraat, which is ruled together by the Prince and Gujaraat's main religious organization, the Hetawa. In this setting, people's dreams generate a substance called Dreamblood, which can be used to perform magical healing.
Hetawa assassin-priests called Gatherers kill the elderly, terminally ill, or corrupt and gather their Dreamblood to give to the Hetawa to be used for the common good. This is seen as a good thing by nearly all Gujareen, although most foreigners disagree. If a Gatherer goes too long without collecting Dreamblood, they become a Humanoid Abomination called a Reaper, an insane beast capable of harvesting Dreamblood from up to thousands of people at great distances.
While the Hetawa has a reputation for benevolence, in reality they use the highly addictive Dreamblood to force the Prince and the rest of the Gujareen elite to obey them by getting them addicted to Dreamblood and threatening to withold it if they disobey.
Our candidate decided that he was going to change this, no matter how many thousands of people he has to kill in the process.
Who is the candidate?
Prine Eninket is the Big Bad of the Killing Moon. Eninket was one of hundreds of children of the previous Prince . Eninket saw how the Hetawa forced his father to beg for more Dreamblood and resolved that he and his children would never fear this fate.
Eninket assassinates his father to seize his throne. To secure his position, he sends soldiers to the palace where the former Prince's widows and other children live with instructions to kill the children. Eninket meant for the soliders to spare the widows, but the soldiers got carried away and murdered everyone except for one of Eninket's brothers, Ehiru, whose mother promised him to the Hetawa to become a Gatherer, meaning that he could not be killed without risking the wrath of the Hetawa.
Eninket accepts Dreamblood from the Hetawa to avoid rousing their suspicions. However, he searches for a way to overthrow the Hetawa and finds it when he plunders the tomb of the original Prince of Gujaraat, discovering that the Hetawa had the original prince murdered when he became too difficult for them to control, and that Reapers could be controlled through a magical jungissa stone. Eninket used the knowledge of the original Prine's fate to blackmail the Superior of the Hetawa into serving him.
With the Hetawa under control, Eninket decided that he should spread Gujaraat's prosperity to the rest of world by force. To accomplish this, Eninket decided to become immortal by gathering and consuming a massive quantity of Dreamblood.
To get this Dreamblood, Eninket needed two things: a Reaper to control with his jungissa stone, and tens of thousands of people for the Reaper to gather. Eninket blackmailed the Superior into giving him an elderly Gatherer named Una-une to starve until became a Reaper. As for the sacrifices, Eninket decided to secretly assemble a navy in a far off port, staff this navy with northern foreign mercenaries, and have them invade the neighboring country of Kisua. During the battle, Eninket would have Una-une gather both armies, giving Eninket the Dreamblood he needed to become immortal and paving the way for the Gujareen army to conquer Kisua and from there, the world.
Kinja, a Kisuati merchant and spy noticed that Eninket was preparing for war, as did a northern merchant named Charleron. Eninket had Kinja poisoned (making it look like death by natural causes) and had Charleron gathered on the grounds of having a (fabricated) terminal illness. Ehiru, ignorant of his brother's schemes, was sent to do the gathering. When Charleron protested that he was not ill, Ehiru flubbed the gathering, destroying Charleron's soul. Ehiru was horrified by this and refrained from gathering in the future, putting him at risk of becoming a Reaper.
Sunandi, Kinja's apprentice and adopted daughter, was suspcious of Kinja's death and investigated it. Eninket's general, Niyes told Susandi of his suspicions that Eninket had Kinja killed and was harboring a Reaper. When Eninket learned that Niyes betrayed him, he fed Niyes to Una-une and arranged for Sunandi to be gathered on false charges of corruption. Ehiru and his new apprentice Nijiri were sent to do the gathering. However, Sunandi managed to get the drop on them and explained that the Prince was the guilty party. When Eninket learned that Sunandi was still alive, he had the Superior arrest Ehiru on suspicions of being a Reaper. Eninket then had Ehiru brought to him and used their familial connection to attempt to convince Ehiru that killling Sunandi is the right thing to do. Ehiru and Nijiri decide to accompany Sunandi to Kisua to learn the truth of what is going on.
When Ehiru realizes that Eninket really is using a Reaper and plotting war, he and Nijiri return to Gujarat to gather him. Eninket realizes that Ehiru is coming for him and has him arrested. Eninket reveals the truth of the Hetawa's corruption to break Ehiru and then leaves him alone in a cell with Nijiri, intending for Ehiru become a new Reaper to replace the dying Una-une and to kill Nijiri. Meanwhile, Eninket sends his mercenary army to Kisua.
Ehiru becomes a Reaper, but manages to refrain from harming Nijiri. Together, they break out of their cell and confront Eninket. Eninket uses his jungissa to control Ehiru and use him to devour both armies and has Una-une attack Nijri. Nijiri manages to put Una-une out of his misery and grabs the jungissa from Eninket, allowing Ehiru to break free and kill Eninket.
Is he magnificent?
Eninket is a epitome of charm. He is a loving father to all of his children. He is a caring husband who loves many of his (over two hundred) wives and cares for all of them and lets them take other lovers if they so desire. Eninket doesn't like his royal outfit and often walks around dressed as a commoner or lesser nobleman so people won't be bowing down before him whenever they see him. He is surprisingly humble for a man who thinks that his becoming immortal god emperor is the best thing that could happen to the world. Definately passes this criteria.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Reapers destroy the souls of their victims when they kill, denying them an afterlife. They also kill as painfull as possible. Eninket is willing to have tens of thousands of people murdered by a Reaper to become a god and over the course of the book has at least several dozen innocents reaped.
However, he does not do this out of malevolence. Eninket sincerely believes that all of his atrocities are neccessary to make the world a better place and takes no joy from this killing. When Eninket has Niyes killed, he informs Niyes that it is nothing personal and that he would inform his family that he died honorably in battle and ensure that no harm comes to his family, which Niyes is grateful for.
Eninket does feed one of his wives to Una-une as punishment for spying on him for the Hetawa. Eninket tells Niyes that he respected her for having the conviction to side with the Hetawa over him, but he could not let her betrayal go unpunished.
While Eninket is a horrible person, he has enough charm and nobility to avoid being too much of a bastard. So I'd say he passes this.
Competition?
Eninket outplays everyone else in the book and only fails because he made the entirely reasonable assumption that an apprentice Gatherer like Nijiri wouldn't be skilled enough to kill a Reaper. Easy pass here.
Conclusion
I'd say he counts.
My next Redwall one, btw...is a duo.
What's the work?
Taggerung is the 13th novel in the Redwall series, the plot centering around a tribe of vermin known as the Juska. The Juska are a superstitious group, organized into independent clans that take the name after the leader. The Juskarath are led by one Sawney Rath, a ferocious ferret and warrior who is prophesied to find the Taggerung; the savior and greatest warrior of the Juska. The Taggerung is an infant otter who they find with his father, whom Sawney has killed by one of his men, Vallug Bowbeast. Years pass, Sawney raising the baby otter as Zann Juskarath Taggerung; or Tagg. Tagg, however, is kind and surprisingly good natured, leading to him fleeing the Juskarath after a disagreement with Sawney. In pursuing him, Sawney is murdered by a clan member with a grudge against him, who makes her son Gruven the next leader and frames Tagg for the murder. Gruven assembles the best Juska warriors to to hunt down Tagg...the problem? Gruven is an incompetent idiot, and two of the team are far, far more dangerous and clever: I give you Vallug Bowbeast and Eefera.
Who are Vallug and Eefera?'
Vallug is a big, taciturn ferret, so skilled with his bow he can 'hit a dragonfly on the wing.' Eefera is a sly, clever weasel and the best tracker and killer in the clan. Vallug and Eefera waste zero time in establishing that they're the true leaders of the Juska war band. In one instance, Vallug and Eefera are enjoying a fish they caught and refuse to give Gruven any. When Gruven unwisely picks a fight, Vallug leaps to his feet, floors Gruven with a punch in the face and says "You ain't no chief, Gruven. Your mama's tougher'n you." (being fair, this is absolutely true), and adds that the slayer of Tag will be the real chief. ...since the slayer of the Taggerung becomes the new Taggerung. Eefera and Vallug soon realize that Gruven's incompetence, and even the other members of the team are a total hindrance to them and opt to ditch them...leaving them in a position to be eliminated on their own, to Gruven's utter fury.
Now, Vallug and Eefera track Tagg to Redwall abbey where they proceed to form a plan by kidnapping lost children to blackmail the abbey for Tagg. Gruven and team have now tracked them, and Vallug and Eefera effortlessly disable and capture Gruven with his final two soldiers still alive (Gruven really, really, really sucks at this leadership thing). They use a plan to have the trio assault Redwall with slings and javelins, Vallug using his arrows to make it appear as if they have an army besieging Redwall, with Vallug even mortally wounding the ancient badger matron of Redwall, Cregga, the forme rbadger lord of Salamandastron. However when Tagg arrives, they take his companion hostage, prompting Tagg to come for them with the sword of Martin the Warrior. Vallug puts a shaft in Tagg's chest, but is promptly decapitated, as things go bad. Eefera flees and eventually makes a stand against Tagg, ending with Eefera's death, while Tagg is so badly injured he is almost killed in their duel.
Are they intelligent? Charming? Charismatic?
Actually? Yes. Vallug isn't as smart as Eefera, but he's cunning, clever and ruthlessly sharp, more the tactician of the two while Eefera is the schemer. They're both possessed of surprising charm for vermin and extremely charismatic, easily winning over the warband over Gruven and being remarkably fun to read. One notable moment is when they agree to team up, Vallug offers Eefera to go first...Eefera then asks Vallug to proceed first, as neither is stupid enough to trust the other unreservedly...they then laugh and walk side by side.
The two are....very clever and function remarkably well as a duo to the point they leave Gruven in the frigging dirt and are way smarter than even Sawney himself, and honestly work far better as a Big Bad Duumvirate than most any Redwall villain you can name. What's especially enjoyable about them is most vermin are backstabbing morons even when holding off on such hings would be in their best interest. Vallug and Eefera are both well aware only one of them can really return to be the new chief, but they're smart enough to hold off on backstabbing until they accomplish their goal.
Also worth noting? They put Redwall under more of a siege and danger with just the two of them than entire armies have done.
Are they bastards? Too much?
Well, theyr'e bad guys, yes. They care very little for their comrades or one another. Vallug's opening moment is shooting an innocent otter through the heart, and Eefera is a ruthless schemer. However...neither gets up to any revolting crimes. The worst thing they do is kidnapping children and weirdly? It's not even really their entire fault. Another rat kidnapped them to ransom them, threatened them with violence. Vallug shot the rat dead and decided "hey, might as well use this" with no indication they actually planned to murder ther kids. I can't say they care about one another, as neither trusts the other very well, but they get on surprisingly well and have one of the closest things to a Villainous Friendship there is....and while they're dicks to Gruven, it's Gruven, so it's wholly deserved.
Conclusion?
I'd give them easy yeas. For zero resources, and functioning as a very competent duo, they're solid baddies.
Oh, easy yes. Ruggan Bor from the same book is also a possible keep, and I'll get to him later down the road.
Yes to Enniket
Now. Not done with anthropomorphic animals....let's talk...Sly Cooper.
Who is Sly Cooper?
Sly is a charming gentleman thief Raccoon, the heir of the Cooper bloodline of thieves. As a young man, Sly was raised by his father, who showed him the Thievius Racoonus; the bible of theft, passed down through their bloodline for generations. However, Sly's father was murdered by the Fiendish Five gang, led by the enemy of the Cooper bloodline, the mechanized owl Clockwerk. Sly became a thief like his family and set out to reclaim the Thievius Racoonus, defeat the Fiendish Five and have some fun, while also being pursued by the lovely Inspector Carmelita Fox.
Now, in the first game? it opens as Sly breaks into Interpol's offices in Paris to obtain a police file on the Fiendish Five, with the help of his friends and gang members Murray and Bentley. Throughout the first game, Sly brilliantly infiltrates the Five's territories to steal everything back from them and defeat them one by one. Sly tracks down Clockwerk finally and defeats the evil owl, and also saves Carmelita Fox. It comes down to Carmelita and Sly...with Carmelita ready to take Sly in. Sly? Kisses her in response...and handcuffs her to a railing to make his escape.
In Sly 2, Sly is breaking into museums to destroy Clockwerk's parts, to end the owl's threat, running afoul of the criminals the Klaww gang. Once again, Sly moves through the enemies, outwitting and defeating them again and again, dismantling the Klaww Gang while exposing Carmelita's partner is actually a villain. Sly defeats her, along with the last remnants of Clockwerk...and is taken in by Carmelita, but escapes again and flees.
In Sly 3? Sly puts his gang back together to rob an island where his father left a secret vault. Sly puts together everything again to handle the bad guys, infiltrate their fortresses and take them down, defeats the bad guys and saves the world...at the end, Sly seems to ahve amnesia and Carmelita convinces him he's her partner and fellow inspector, the two entering into a relationship...with the last scene revealing Sly is faking said amnesia to date Carmelita.
Is he charming? Charismatic? A planner?
Utterly. Sly is charming, pleasant, witty and delightful with his narration and quips. He's a brilliant gentleman thief and rather proactive as he tends to infiltrate his enemies' lairs, with a focus on stealth and subterfuge, ending by defeating his enemies. And he keeps escaping justice at the end. Sly's good.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Now, Sly is a thief, but he only steals from bad guys. This is really the only sticking point as Sly is the charming Anti-Hero of the games. Is being a gentleman thief like the lit examples, like Lupin enough? I leave it to you. He's definitely probably as heroic as you can get while still being considered.
Conclusion?
What say?
Sly... as a Gentleman Thief, tiptoes the line too much for me. I don't really think he's anywhere near "bastardly" enough for me (keep in mind you can only make him look so bad in a mostly E-rated series — there's been much more decidedly amoral Gentleman Thief types to more comfortably apply to the trope) as clever and admirable as he is. No to him.
Edited by Scraggle on Aug 20th 2018 at 7:26:54 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
to all of the above.
Speaking of Gentleman Thief example... There's one of them that still bugs me in my mind. And he's the guy from Brave Frontier. Yes, he's a gentleman thief but the main issue is he's mostly targeting the villain. PM me if you're interested.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Completely fair reasoning.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
EDIT: Nvm...i just say no on Sly and drop the BF character altogether. Felt he's just too much of a Guile Hero for me.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Redwall duo
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Sly, who isn't enough of a bastard.
to Enniket and Lighty's Redwall duo.
Though I'm gonna have to since a bit to heroic to count.
Also I was wondering if Wendy Testaburger from South Park qualifies or not. She has done some pretty evil stuff in the earlier seasons like orchestrate a complex plan to get an innocent woman shot into the sun because her boyfriend Stan had a crush on her. She also the only one I know that can outsmart Cartman in his various schemes and at one time beat him up to a bloody pulp, and it also help that she isn't as loathsome as him? I’m just asking because she was listed as one a before the whole MB forum and its guidelines were made, and I can EP or write her up if you guys think its possible for her to qualify or does she suffer from factors that prevent her from qualifying like Stewie Griffin from Family Guy
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 20th 2018 at 7:17:33 AM
Going to have to say no to Sly, who's got most of the components down but similar to Jack Sparrow doesn't really get nasty enough to get out of Guile Hero territory.
As for Wendy? I can't think of anything disqualifying off the top of my head and you've definitely seen more of South Park than I have but I'm 99% sure that somewhere along the lines of her appearances the work's love of envelope pushing comedy would do her in.
Oh, shit, almost missed! Yeah for Vallug and Eefera... and yes to Eninket... man, today is not my day.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 20th 2018 at 10:54:01 AM
The Unknown Unknown
Enniket and the Redwall duo.
Sly. Charming fellow, but he's too heroic to count as a MB.
Repeating that I think in no way does anyone from South Park keep. Too many people cross too many lines for laughs. That, and honestly? I don't think I'd peg Wendy as "magnificent" in the slightest.
Edited by Scraggle on Aug 20th 2018 at 9:36:39 AM
Speaking of folks who don't keep... here's one to purge from MW. It reads shortly:
- Magnificent Bastard: Michio
... and what's the first sentence from the same character's Complete Monster writeup on the same page?
- The manipulative chessmaster Michio Yuki, a blackmailer, bisexual rapist, kidnapper and murderer is the single most hateful and sociopathic character Osamu Tezuka has ever created.
Instant no.
The fact that Wendy sent an innocent woman to the sun over such a trivial reason is disqualifying in of itself. Pettiness like that kills the Magnificence.
Goku Black
Enniket and the Redwall duo.
Sly.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
zytak and ally
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."