During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
@ Bull, Are you kidding? I really appreciate you doing that 
@ mir, I like it.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
mir: I like it.
43: Cool. Just wasn't sure if it was okay. And wanted to make sure.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 29th 2020 at 10:37:06 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Mir: That Menendez quote is awesome and I dig it.
Just asking BTW, has anyone made a proposal for Perseus from Call of Duty: Black Ops Cold War? I have a feeling he fits the criteria, and his personality is even more appealing once the bad ending is chosen.
Edited by ThePat on Nov 30th 2020 at 12:49:50 AM
That was literally done in the last couple of pages.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Indeed, solid keep our boy jackie covered.
should be on the game's YMMV this Friday.
Edited by 43110 on Nov 29th 2020 at 12:07:10 PM
Woagh
Right, so I took a look at grodd from the game I looked at yesterday, and alas, he doesn't seem to pass it. He's a fun villain, and is competent, but it's mostly just him having a head start on the heroes and using his resources for brute force. Not to mention his embarrassing defeat.
Still, overall, I had a pretty productive night yesterday. 2 CM's and a MB.
Anyways, I found this on The Nightmare Before Christmas: Oogie's Revenge. I've actually been curious about this one, possibly as a Jafar kinda situation:
- Took a Level in Badass:
- Both Jack and Oogie. While Jack was very acrobatic in the film and had a bit of a clash with Oogie at the end, he didn't actually apply it to combat. Oogie is no longer a Plot-Irrelevant Villain, but rather a bit of a Magnificent Bastard with some pretty decent Evil Overlord vibes.
Either way, I've replaced it with the tropes little cousin, Manipulative Bastard.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Good point. I friggin love the guy, but his tone does regularly scream, "Y'all can't beat me, I got swagger!"
Might as well check it out while I'm ahead. The smugness does add to his charm, after all.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Nov 29th 2020 at 10:13:10 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Might be worth a look but he's also a Smug Snake people love so it could just be someone troping a villain they love.
Anybody here played Dissadia Final Fantasy? There's a discussion going on in the CM thread about that specifically the Emperor and whether he counts here.
Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 29th 2020 at 1:54:49 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Was just about to ask the same thing. Before rage quitting Drake raised some question on if they’re too bad for this and the same troper has had issues understanding tone for the characters they’ve proposed.
The Unknown Unknown
I wouldn't say DissidiaEmperor is too bad for this trope. Half the reason I upvoted him in the past was because he wasn't as vile or slimy as in his FFII.
Yes, he calls Firion and his entourage "insects" and believes only he can rule, but he's nowhere the Complete Monster he is in his home game.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
He's certainly got an ego to him, from the research I'm doing, but I don't think it ventures too far into the realms of abhorrence to disqualify from this
Dissidia is one of those massively multiplayer crossovers like Smash or Super Robot Wars. I'm iffy. How much canon from their home universe do we take for situations like this?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Honestly I found Emperor to be a more of a high functioning smug snake rather than truly magnificent, but if you guys want to keep him, I'll support it.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
I mean... if I'm being honest I'm getting DCAU!Darkseid vibes here, just without the rape. It sounds like his personality was lifted from his home game and impersonal as a lot of his crimes may be, sounds like he's played as an evil bastard who happens to be a decent manipulator. Tried getting Drake to come talk about this one but he just seemed to take the whole thing as an insult and got confused, so I'm struggling with this entry.
I was never one much for Darkseid even without the rape by fraud instance, so I too am leaning towards cut, but I'm not familiar enough with the work to make a call. Just reading his CM writeup for Final Fantasy II he does seem like he's very bad in his home universe.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The Unknown Unknown
Well, Dissidia!Emperor is the The Heavy who masterminds most of the conflict using schemes and manipulation. He's, shall we say, written less abhorrently.
Compare in FFII where he poisons water supplies and razes towns with Cyclone because he demands the whole world to revere him as emperor.
This isn't a case of them lifting his original personality wholesale. Maybe some aspects of it, but not all of it. Dissidia has Broad Strokes anyway.
Edited by erazor0707 on Nov 29th 2020 at 2:10:58 PM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.As I said, his arrogance and willingness to backstab his own allies like Kefka gives me pause. There's Bad Boss tendencies and then there's the Emperor who outright just plots everyone's downfall for fun. He comes off as extremely smug and while not quite on the same level, reminds me of Light Yagami in that regard. And affability is a definite facade, so he doesn't even have that. It's not like Darkrai where the game tones down his personality due to the rating. His EX Burst is outright mind rape.
He may not be as vile as FF2, but if he's the same Emperor, I don't see why we should include him.
Edited by Klavice on Nov 29th 2020 at 11:17:37 AM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Woagh
Welp, I've looked up the cutscenes on youtube, so I might as well get it over with.
What's the Work?
The Nightmare Before Christmas: Oogie's Revenge is ps2 game that acts like the sequel to the original holiday classic. While the idea of the sequel being a Devil May Cry- styled Hack and Slash may sound strange, the cast reprising their roles, plus some kickass remixes of the original songs and some fun gameplay help it be generally accepted by fans, even if the writing can be a bit cheesy at times.
The plot is basically that Skelleton Jack leaves Halloween Town for a few months to look for new ideas for halloween. However, the resident tricksters, Lock, Shock, and Barrel, use the absence to resurrect jacks Arch-Nemesis, Oogie Boogie. Thus starts a Christmas no-one would forget...
Who is Oogie Boogie?
The swaggering, gambling boogie man who manages to take over Halloween Town and seeks to become "The Seven Holidays King".
What does he do?
To start off his scheme, he has Dr. Finklestine's brain replaced with one that'll let him control the doctor. He then has the doctor tell the residents that Jack wants a more "Dangerous" Halloween, and if they don't comply, Jack will never return. Desperate for Jack to come back, the citizens set up booby traps all over Halloween Town, unaware that they're actually for Jack himself when he comes back. When he's finished with them, he then has some monsters he's created attack the town, swiftly taking it over in one fell swoop. He also steals the leaders of the other Towns, and steals and hides the doors that lead to the other Holiday Towns, just to be sure, and imprisoned sally to distract jack.
When jack does come back, he finds Halloween Town is crawling in traps and evil monsters, and actually has to fight them for once. Luckily for jack, he brought a weapon with him on his travels, so he's prepared to take them on.
Throughout the game, Oogie fights jack head on, using a shadow clone that he can create now apparently. Either way, he still speaks like it's Oogie himself that's talking, so it's safe to assume that he's directly controlling them.
Oh yeah, and he sings while he fights. Because Awesome.
After Jack takes down his second clone, who was pretending to be the real deal, he reveals that he's currently in Christmas Town, and he's hidden its door somewhere dangerous.
Once Jack makes it to Christmas town, he sees that Oogie has already begun taking it over, having put Santa Claus on a railway trap and stole his sleigh. once jack rescues Santa, he takes off, the Heroes only being able to follow because Sally happened to had made another sleight.
Once Jack knocks Oogie off his sleight, he lands in a junkyard, where he uses the fact that he's The Worm That Walks to his advantage and becomes a hulking behemoth, taking jack head on, and after a lengthy boss fight (And a few musical numbers), he finally perishes, all the bugs flowing out of his body, and the holidays are saved.
Is he Magnificent?
Sure. He takes a lot of precautions to take care of jack, all of which turn out to be justified, and also outmaneuvers jack multiple times. He doesn't even show the fear of Jack he showed in the movie, both as a shadow or in person.
And of course, his biggest trait is his charm. Tell me that a burlap sack filled with bugs who has a gambling motif and is voiced by Ken Page isn't cool.
Is he a Bastard?
Again, takes over Halloween Town, replaces Finklestiens brain, captures sally and Santa, and plans to rule over all holidays. His sadistic fondness for traps is actually downplayed, however, so he's a good bit less openly sadistic here. A lot of the traps he pulls actually have a purpose (Distracting Jack and keeping him busy) instead of being sadism for the sake of it.
Migitating Factors?
While he is smug, it never comes off as annoying, seeing how the rest of the game kinda justifies it, and if anything, it actually adds to his charm, giving him more of an Awesome Ego.
He also does get annoyed at jack for escaping his death attempts a few times, but they aren't a full on Villainous Breakdown, and he gets over them quickly.
Overall?
How's he look?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Nov 29th 2020 at 11:22:03 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
RIP Akira Toriyama
Ehhhhh. I'm gonna abstain on Oogie. It doesn't sound like he does too bad for himself but I dunno... something about the character doesn't strike me as "magnificent."
I'm leaning a very weak cut toward the Emperor. Sounds cool as hell and like a brilliant chessmaster but what he does sounds pretty heinous and his arrogance ain't doing him any favors.
I'll read the EP in a bit there Dood but as for the Emperor? I can look into this but between how Drake just handled the misunderstanding, general need to veer straight to insults and pattern of problem effort posts they left us to clean up after they stopped coming to the thread I'm just going to leave it at if I find he's an easy cut: I will be pissed.
Edit: Looking at his death scene, he seems defiant but the game doesn't forget the arrogance either, with the heroes throwing back the "Just a bunch of insects" line at him while he passes. What am I looking at here erazor? How expansive is his tenure as a character in this side-series?
Edited by 43110 on Nov 29th 2020 at 2:43:32 PM
RIP Toriyama
Likewise honestly gonna abstain on Oogie for now, some pieces might be there but mmmmmm he's a tough one to see as "magnificent".
As for the Emperor? Doing my own research, yeah I'd say he can be cut. He's definitely a smartie and fun to watch, but he's.....basically Gilgamesh in terms of ego and smugness. He's constantly calling his opponents insects and tools for him to use and dispose, he takes some low blow insults during his intro to fights now and then, when the final battle is rolling up and he's called out for his evil and ego, he just proclaims "Silence! Death, life, even the divine shall come under my rule, for the only one suited to rule is I!"
Throw in that when beaten his immediate reaction is "How could I lose not once, but twice?! Who ARE you?!", to which the characters respond "Just a swarm of insects.", and I think it's made pretty clear that for all his skill and intelligence, the Emperor is way too egotistical and arrogant for his own good, as seen when he can't believe he's lost and the heroes triumphantly throw his common insult back in his face that he's been beaten by "mere insects."
He does reconstitute himself enough to state that he'll be back from the dead soon to plague them again, but eh it still feels like he's just being an arrogant dick unwilling to accept defeat, further driven home when he dies screaming rather humorously before exploding.
I'd say he's a cut.
Edited by Ravok on Nov 29th 2020 at 11:45:37 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
RIP Akira Toriyama
Alright, yep. Affirming my cut vote in that case.
Abstain on Oogie. I don't know if it's the fact he's one of Disney's most famous smug snakes along with Hades, Jafar, and Captain Hook, but I must admit, I don't find him magnificent at all, but his actions are pretty clever.
I can vouch for that information on the Emperor being true.
Oh boy, 43 is going to be pissed...
Edited by Klavice on Nov 29th 2020 at 11:46:26 AM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
That's a constant thing? Yeah lol terrible example, cut. Also gonna have to abstain as well on Oogie. I'm not sure if it's that I'm getting the original (awesomely) smug vibes to his character or what but it just feels a tad off.
Oh for call of duty quote this from raul mendenez ?
"Opulence is sinful, and we all pay for it. Los Angeles was the flagship of their absurd materialism, so I destroyed it. They thought I wanted to kill the president. Madame Presidentè, I could have buried you a million times over... No... I wanted you to see it, to feel what it's like. Today, two billion people exist in abject misery, tyrannized by war. Madame Presidentè, your war machines are no more. Your military is crippled. You cannot stop us now. Cordis Die, rise, and strike when they are down. Strike now, and strike deep!"
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."