During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Ironically I just finished Chapter 4 of Goodbye Despair, again.
I think we may need to hear him from the Despair Arc of DR3 too, before I say yes. There's also a Komaeda starring OVA that shows the students after Goodbye Despair but before 3's future arc.
DR3 Despair Arc kinda makes Junko control everything. Closest candidate in that would probably be Izuru Kamukura aka: Hajime Hinata's Superpowered Evil Side, but it's kind of ambiguous as to what his motivations are. I'd love to see your thoughts on Nagito though, Newton as I feel he has a better chance of counting than Kokichi. At the same time. As 43 said, you've got to be careful with these characters that span multiple games/media.
For now, I'll say yes.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 26th 2020 at 2:45:26 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Rhadamanthys and Gundham
I’ll wait for Scraggle’s opinion before I vote for the MH candidate
to Rhadamanthys and even moreso to Gundham. Wonder if Nagito may qualify for one. Also, for some reason, I wonder if Kazuo Tengan from DRA 3 and Tsumugi from V3 count, though I think they have their own highly mitigating qualities.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yeah... Tsumugi is too vile being the mastermind of V3 and nearly as sadistic as Junko. The fact that V3 is built entirely on lies, means we can't even be certain if she meets the Moral Agency due to the flashback lights giving her a sort of brainwashing.
I tried (but failed) to get Nagito and Kokichi up. I think at least one of them might have a shot, but the DR Masterminds have too big of a bodycount and are extremely sadistic. The exception being Izuru Kamakura, but still has Hajime who can work independently, so I'm sure he has more agency than Tsumugi, though he is emotionless and was brainwashed into that by Junko. The Despair Arc in general is basically Junko being cruel while having the Despair class massacre hundreds.
Yes to Rhada as well.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 26th 2020 at 3:15:58 AM
Newton looking at what Klavice just put... did you include everything about him? I really hope nothing's missing here.
To be fair, they're brainwashed when they are part of the Ultimate Despair due to the real Chiaki Nanami getting murdered by Junko as well as breaking what little sanity they have left with a Mind Rape. But yeah, it looked like Newton talked about Gundham's actions in Goodbye Despair and not 3 Despair or the OVA.
Edit: To clarify this was out of the clips I've seen of the DR3 Despair anime.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 26th 2020 at 6:14:52 AM
Alrighty:
- Code Geass
- Emperor Charles zi Britannia, 99th Emperor of Britannia, presents as a fascist Social Darwinist who believes in a world where equality cannot exist. In truth, Charles' views were shaped growing up in the brutal, cutthroat court of Britannia until he and his twin brother VV outmanuevered their enemies to make Charles Emperor. Secretly researching the Geass and testing his many children, Charles utilizes his empire as little more than a distraction, placing his children in Japan to eventually gain access to the Sword of Akasha. Playing the entire world, Charles eventually sees his twin brother dead for his own betrayal and to seize immortality, intending to initiate the Ragnarok Connection and kill "God" itself to merge mankind into one single mind.
- Marianne vi Britannia, AKA "Marianne the Flash" is Charles' true love and a match for him in ruthless deception. Known for her immense piloting skill and iron will, Marianne was betrayed by VV who loathed her influence over his brother. Transferring her mind into the young girl Anya, Marianne remains dormant there, taking control as strategically necessary to deceive her enemies and even her own children to help Charles pull off the Ragnarok Connection and bring about the world both seek.
- Saint Seiya
- Gemini Saga is a man who had wrested with the evil in his heart his whole life. After murdering the Pope and taking his place, Saga frames the pure-hearted Gold Saint Sagittarius Aiolos for his attempted murder of baby Athena and has him mortally wounded, ruling Sanctuary for thirteen years with almost nobody the wiser. Having his forces close in on Athena, Saga later recovers his goodness and ends his own life to atone for his misdeeds. Later revived by Hades, Saga turns out to deceive Hades the whole time to free Athena from mortal constraints and gives his life to help Seiya and the other Saints.
- Virgo Shaka is known as the Man Closest to God. A living Buddha, Shaka is known as perhaps the mightiest Gold Saint and one of the craftiest. Effortlessly outplaying Leo Aiolia, Shaka controls his mind to send him to fight the Bronze Saints and later faces Phoenix Ikki as a skillful fighter. When the revived Gold Saints come to Sanctuary, Shaka effortlessly defeats Hades' Spectres and then allows his own end at the hands of the revived Saga, Shura and Camus to send his soul to aid Athena to the end.
- Capricorn Shura is one of Saga's Co-Dragons, helping to keep control of Sanctuary and directing their forces for total control despite known Saga is an imposter. Having lost faith in humanity, Shura reveals himself as a dangerous and skilled killer who faces Dragon Shiryu, finally overwhelmed as Shiryu prepares to sacrifice himself. Recovering his ideals, Shura gives his own life to preserve Shiryu's, later returning as part of Saga's conspiracy to help Athena and participates in the final sacrifice to assist the Bronze Saints.
- Sea Dragon Kanon is the twin brother of Saga, the leader of Poseidon's Mariners who helped to awaken Poseidon to manipulate him and the Mariners in flooding the world. Using them as his secret army to help pave his own road to world domination, Kanon later repents and inherits his brother's mantle as "Gemini" Kanon, ultimately proving an invaluable ally who infiltrates the underworld to help stop Hades and dies a loyal Saint of Athena in a suicide attack against one of Hades' top minions.
- Wyvern Rhadamanthys is perhaps the most powerful of Hades three Judges of the Underworld. Distrusting the revived Gold Saints, Rhadamanthys sends a secret force of Spectres to attack Sanctuary behind his superior Pandora's back and lures three Gold Saints to a trap where their powers are reduced so he can easily defeat them. When the Bronze Saints team up with the supposed defector Lyre Orphee, Rhadamanthys is the only one to block his binding music and deals him a fatal blow. Forming an enmity with Kanon, Rhadamanthys is able to even go head to head with the Gold Saint, showcasing himself as one of the mightiest and most intelligent generals in all of Hades' army.
The MILF Virus
About what Gundham does in Despair Arc... he actually doesn't do much except show him interacting with the cast of SDR 2 except for Hajime since he wasn't actually one of their classmates but a Reserve Course during his time at Hope's Peak, before he gets brainwash by Hypnotic Anime mixed with Mind Rape by seeing Chiaki, everyone's favorite student die. Him being Ultimate Despair has no agency because he was brainwash, he had no control over at it all. As for the Future Arc, again he doesn't show up until the end helping the other students stop Tengan's plan by convincing Ryouta to stop. To be honest Despair Arc actually sidelines most of the cast of SDR 2 except for Junko, Hajime, Chiaki and the Ultimate Imposter.
Also Komaeda's OVA, that just Komaeda's dream while in the simulation after dying in the simulation before Izuru goes and rescue him to wakes him up, so Gundham there isn't even real, it's part of Komaeda's dream.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Oct 26th 2020 at 6:00:33 AM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Thank you. That's all I need.
In that case, Komaeda might count after all.
To clarify, I've played all the games aside from UDG, and I haven't seen the 3 Anime so my information was based solely on Komaeda's actions in SDR2.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 26th 2020 at 6:13:25 AM
With that I'm fine but Newton please spell such things out in the EP next time, DR has been a tricky one on this thread as I already told you.
The MILF Virus
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
He could qualify for sure.
Here's something ironic , after watching Danganronpa 3 one can actually make a legitimate case for Junko believe it or not, because while she did mostly brainwashing to get way, she does still plenty of charisma over many people due to actually being the Ultimate Analyst such as swaying Ryouta and part of the Reserve Course to her side and without what she did, the world would be doom to be under the control of Hope's Peak or Muyumura, because Hope's Peak wanted to conquer the world through the use of the Izuru Project, which they went as far to murder, allow students from the Main Course to commit murder and get away with it, and a lot of terrible things while Muyumura while trying to make a new Hope's Peak to reform was also clearly susceptible to the same corruption. No seriously, Hope's Peak was that malevolent and corrupt that something like Junko did needed to happened to stop their tight grip in the world but I do the genocide of the world might be too much, though one can argue Hope's Peak was trying to gaslight the world out of their part of the corruption and the only reason the end of the world really worked was because how much the world over-relied on Hope's Peak.
I'm just wondering, but you know it could work unless her actions are still too much.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Goku Black
Isnt...Junko batshit fucking insane which is why we dq'd her in the first place.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I know Junko well and I'm shutting this down before it gets off the ground. To be perfectly honest? Considering her at all is giving me concerns about how this trope is being understood.
Lizzid people!
Yeah no. Junko's an insane mass murderer who gets off to causing despair. A hard no there.
Doesn't Junko have a reputation on par with the likes of Palpatine, the Joker, Slade, Darkseid, etc.?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
If it wasn't clear, that's what I was getting at. I've read she's got the charm and cunning, but she's also got the monstrousness tenfold.
Edited by jjjj2 on Oct 26th 2020 at 9:30:01 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Her charm and intelligence are fine, we all know that. There are some glaring issues with how evil and how vile she is and I’m really not down to talk about her. Someone wanted to do an anti-EP once upon a time and honestly I think she’s such a clear no I’d rather not have to use up space on one.
Didn't see your comment when I wrote that but to answer your comparison, I'd compare her more to the Major than that list, the relish she takes in what she does is revolting.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 26th 2020 at 10:08:30 AM
The MILF Virus
Guess that's true, Junko does not qualify but it does really show bad things Hope's Peak were. I'm sorry for missing those details with Gundham, the EP was super long already that it slipped out of my mind.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
All good, more just of a notice for going forward. I do appreciate how thorough you were in general.
Hey guys, so I am currently research a video game that I played a long time ago called Tales of Symphonia and there might be quite a few candidates that might count as a MB.
If I do go with on posting candidates from Tales of Symphonia would it be recommended that I EP the Big Bad, Mithos Yggdrasil, first before I EP the other candidates?
I'm just asking since we might judge the competition for MB like we do with the heinousness for complete monster and the Big Bad is the top bad guy that sets the competition.
Also if anyone want to collaborate with me on Symphonia since there seem to be quite the number of potential candidates (Mithos, Kratos, Zelos, Yuan, Pronyma, etc), if they also played that game to and might have their own opinions on who they think counts on Symphonia?
Again I'm still in the process of doing research since its been a while since I played it so I don't remember everything
Edited by G-Editor on Oct 26th 2020 at 4:49:37 AM
Don't remember it well enough, sorry. I do recall the franchise as a whole having a good number, I think lrrose was looking into some before he disappeared.
Coulda sworn Tales of Symphonia was checked out by Lighty. I wouldn't mind doing Zelos, but my memory of the game is a little foggy so I'll need to watch Masae Anela's LP to remind myself.
Have at 'er lads.
Wild Child
Okay, so there's an entry I've had my doubts on for a while, regarding a show I recently binge-watched. To be certain, I went and rewatched the episodes she appeared in.
That character is Navy from Steven Universe. Here's her entry below.
- Magnificent Bastard: The Homeworld Gem nicknamed Navy is a member of the Ruby Squad. Appearing to be nothing more than a bumbling imbecile, Navy is sent to Earth on a mission to retrieve Jasper. After getting separated from her team and becoming stranded on Earth, Navy fakes redemption, exaggerating her personality to win over the Crystal Gems. After ingratiating herself into the group, Navy reclaims the Roaming Eye whilst gleefully pulling the rug from under the Crystal Gems her upbeat attitude never faltering.
Okay, my first issue is that there's little to suggest her "bumbling imbecile" persona is a facade. All her appearances up until "Room for Ruby" is her and her squad getting easily duped by the Crystal Gems several times, barely questioning them despite how nakedly transparent their lies and acting is. Nothing suggests she's faking being tricked in those instances, making her appearance in "Room for Ruby" come off less as her revealing herself to an intelligent chessmaster and more just a moment of genius.
My other issue is that her show of guile....really isn't that impressive. Her big claim to fame is tricking Steven into thinking she's pulled a Heel–Face Turn by basically going "I really want to be friends and totally don't have a grudge". And, well, it's Steven, the kid who tries to resolve everything by talking things out and appealing to everyone's good nature, even literal intergalactic space tyrants. Of course he would be suckered in by Navy's claim of wanting to be friends. Aside from him, the others honestly aren't shown to be that convinced by Navy's behavior and just go along with it for Steven's sake. Heck, even the episode plays it less as Navy actually being intelligent and more Steven simply being obliviously naive, with Lapis basically going I Knew It!.
And one final, albeit less important, note: this isn't even unique to Navy. Aquamarine and Eyeball pull the exact same stunt in Future, with Steven and the CG flat-out acknowledging they may be faking but going along with it out of good will, which just makes Navy stand out even less.
Why so serious?
Yes to Gundham and Radamathys and abstain on Ruiner.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"