During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I feel like that's a discussion for somewhere else.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Nap-lan.
I’m down to hear your extended thoughts j but as Riley said it’s a convo for another place. PM is always open if you’d like to talk more on it.
I do agree, this is better for PMs, so I will continue it there.
Edited by jjjj2 on Sep 29th 2020 at 3:53:54 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
to Nap...pa
Yes to Nap-lan.
After Lighty got Crowley, I couldn't leave this one up. Rewatched all his episodes, so here goes:
What is the work?
Battlestar Galactica (2003), a remake of the 1970s series of the same name. Somewhere, in a galaxy far, far away, a cold war between the Twelve Colonies of Kobol and robotic Cylon race turns hot, with the Cylons infiltrating human society with their Ridiculously Human Robots and wiping out 99,999% of humanity in a surprise nuclear attack after disabling their defenses. The remnants of humanity converge around the remaining Battlestar Galactica, fleeing into deep space in search of Earth and trying to keep ahead of the Cylon fleet pursuing them.
Who is Romo Lampkin? What has he done?
Romo Lampkin is a recurring character in season 3 and 4 played by Mark Sheppard, first playing a pivotal role in the show's Courtroom Episode. Lampkin is hired by President Roslin to defend her predecessor Gaius Baltar, currently imprisoned on the Galactica, who will be tried for his role in collaborating with the Cylons on the shortlived colony world New Caprica. Lampkin is assigned Lt. Lee Adama (son of Admiral Bill Adama, the Galactica's commander) to serve as his bodyguard and help him prepare for the trial. Baltar's previous lawyer was killed in a bombing, so when asked by Roslin why he agreed to do it, he claims he's in it for the fame. Lampkin immediately sets out to prepare, meeting with Baltar to discuss the case. At Baltar's request, Lampkin later meets with the cylon Caprica Six, Baltar's lover, gifting her a pen he stole from Baltar to convince her of his deeply-held affections for her (Baltar does, but Lampkin is more eloquent at getting that across). Lampkin knows that the pen will be seized by Caprica Six's guards, intending to evoke sympathy for his client at being silenced. Lee also learns that Lampkin is a kleptomaniac, having stolen possession from people all over the ship, but he relented with Lee, figuring "you've already lost enough" (referring to one of Lee's friends who recently died and whose picture he still hangs on to).
During the actual trial, Lampkin carefully tears apart the case against Baltar, first by delivering a speech decrying mob justice, then later by questioning XO Saul Tigh until he pretty much discredits his own testimony. Lee, who resigns after feuding with his father to join Baltar's defense team fully, does a similar thing at Lampkin's request to discredit President Roslin's testimony. Finally, Lampkin considers going for a mistrial when he learns from Lee that Admiral Adama (who is serving as one of the judges) is biased. Instead, Lee goes on a long-winded "The Reason You Suck" Speech directed at himself and the entire fleet for letting themselves slowly become a lawless gang and use Baltar as a scapegoat for their guilt. Baltar is declared not guilty on a 3-2 vote, with Lampkin going about his business after Lee points out the Batman Gambit he played on him and Baltar wonders how he's going to survive as the most hated man in the universe.
Lampkin reappears in season 4 when President Roslin and a significant part of Galactica's fighter wing go missing on a mission on a Cylon Basestar. A power struggle emerges between Adama Sr. and the Vice President Zarek, a former terrorist despised by Adama. Lee Adama, who has started serving on the Quorum of Twelve (the executive body representing the twelve former colonies), brings in Lampkin to find a replacement for Roslin who will be accepted by Adama. Lampkin agrees to do it pro bono (for his previous job, he was given a room with a view of the stars). Lee and Lampkin go through the motions, discussing a list of several candidates, all of whom are either not good enough or aren't interested in politics to begin with. Lampkin eventually realizes that the obvious choice is Lee Adama himself, before confronting Lee and threatening to shoot him. Why? Romo has become disillusioned with humanity because his cat was killed by a bunch of assholes for defending Baltar previously. Lampkin asks Lee to convince him that humanity should survive, who confides that he knows about Lampkin's past, and that he had to leave his wife and daughter behind on Caprica with only his wife's cat as a memento. Lee is spared by Lampkin and sworn in as President. Lampkin is given the ship's dog by Lee as a new pet.
Near the end of the series, Zarek and Lt. Felix Gaeta organize a coup against Adama and Roslin for making peace with one faction of Cylons against another one. Lampkin is dragged in to "defend" Adama in an even more blatant Kangaroo Court with Gaeta as prosecutor and Zarek as judge. Lampkin, immediately aware that it's An Offer You Can't Refuse, tries to get Adama to sign a confession to win favor with their captors for himself, but Adama points out that they'll probably kill him too after he's outlived his usefulness to the mutineers. As they're escorted by marines after the "trial", they stumble upon pro-Adama forces, with Lampkin taking the opportunity to stab the marine holding him to death with a pen. The mutiny collapses as Admiral Adama takes back his ship and has the conspirators executed.
Lampkin finally appears in the last few episodes, as the Galactica is gearing up for its final battle against the Cylons while leaving behind the rest of the Fleet to continue on in case they fail. Since President Roslin is going along with this mission, she steps down while Lampkin is declared President in her stead. He's last seen with the final survivors of humanity settling on Earth.
How do his actions and personality show him to be a Magnificent Bastard?
Lampkin is insanely charismatic. He's a criminal defense attorney by trade, having learned from Joseph Adama (grandfather of Lee, father of Bill). He slides nicely into the Amoral Attorney trope, using various schemes to further his case, including manipulating his own client and fellow counsel. He's a very smooth operator, quickly gauging the politics in any situation and using that to his own ends.
BSG was always a Black-and-Gray Morality-type show, with the main characters often having to resort to Shoot the Dog and Cold Equation type solutions. Meanwhile, the Cylons range from "genocidal fundamentalists but undergo a Heel–Face Turn" to "nihilistic rapist torturer and aspiring Omnicidal Maniac with mommy issues". Lampkin is nowhere in that ballpark, but I think he has just enough dubious actions under his belt that he fits here, from threatening to shoot Lee, killing a marine (an Asshole Victim, granted), his manipulative tactics, and his kleptomania (which honestly makes him more endearing in the Loveable Rogue sense). Even among te humans, you have characters like Zarek and Admiral Cain who are much worse.
Mitigating traits?
During his second episode, Lampkin does undergo a bit of Sanity Slippage, appearing to hallucinate his cat before revealing to Lee that it had been killed weeks ago. However, he does seem to be fully aware that it's not alive. His confrontation with Lee is also ambiguous between Lampkin having fully really lost it or whether he's simply trying to goad Lee into proving that he's fit to be President. Given how quickly he recovers, I'm inclined to lean towards the latter.
Him leaving his family behind is also played for sympathy, not cowardice. It's implied that he had a choice between either boarding an evacuation shuttle or trying to get across town with nukes already inbound. Lee points out that many others who survived the Cylon attack had to make hard choices like that, and doesn't fault him for it in the slightest.
Conclusion?
Another Mark Sheppard qualifier.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Sep 29th 2020 at 4:56:08 AM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Goku Black
Lampkin
Lampkin.
Yeah for Lampkin.
Abstaining because I haven’t finished the series yet. DM me when discussion on BSG is over.
Heck yes.
The Draftsman of Doom
Yea there.
Yes to Lampkin.
to Lampkin
Yes to Nap-la and Lampkin.
to Lampkin
to Lampkin.
I imagine Battlestar in general should have some more, given the whole being a franchise thing.
Also, I'm not sure I'm leaning a cut here but something I just noticed from Omar's entry on Criminal Case:
- Magnificent Bastard: Omar Bahir, from World Edition (season 3), The Sword", is a professor who specializes in Ancient Arabic. Secretly an agent of the nefarious organization SOMBRA, he was hired to sew the seeds of chaos in the Sahara Region to colonize it into a cell. Manipulating several revolutionary leaders into overthrowing their governments, when the Bureau becomes aware of his operation, he shoots Chief Elizabeth Ripley with a poison dart. Bahir then convinces Anir Aznag to assist him with kidnapping 8-year-old Andrew Stern before disposing of him and lures Carmen and the player character to war-torn Iraq to kill them both with a poison grenade after noting he had already taken the antidote. With his twisted genius and sophistication, Bahir stands as one of the Bureau's most deadly, yet intelligent, adversaries.
Apologies here Austin because I remember you bringing this one to me before posting it focused on if he was too bad since he's a Complete Monster. Were it his crimes alone, I'd be fine with him but stumbling across the EP I notice something: he purposefully left "breadcrumbs" for the heroes to find... now I did Novaro who did the same but his whole thing was wanting to lose to the hero so he could create a real life superhero, Omar I presume doesn't given his goal is to spark a war.
Along with that, we've got him bragging about his crimes and then boasting some more to the heroes about being able to survive a poison grenade. Altogether that's a pattern there, reminding me of the Brooklyn 99 dentist who couldn't keep his mouth shut to brag about being a criminal mastermind.
Next thing is how that couples, in terms of tone, with the fact he is a CM who seeks war, traumatizes a child and strings along and then brutally kills a tribe leader his monster entry refers to having been a "harmless" man. At this point I'd just like to stop and think: what's the tone? Do we really have another Hans Gruber who makes his scheme so perfect you just can't help but love the pure evil bastard or is he just a good planner who gets a bit too sadistic and too self-indulgent in his flexing. Just something I wanted to talk over so let's talk.
Lizzid people!
Oh, it's fine. I'm fine with him going. But, yes, that was my initial concern on whether he was too heinous in terms of him being a CM; don't want this to seem like me trying to go out of my way to find a crossover.
Edited by AustinDR on Sep 29th 2020 at 6:55:15 AM
I am open to hearing both sides here, so lemme ask what's the tone like in the scenes say... of him interacting with his hostage, killing the tribe leader or boasting to the heroes?
All good! Him being a crossover honestly isn't where my concerns were born.
Edited by 43110 on Sep 29th 2020 at 9:57:04 AM
Lizzid people!
The murder itself takes place offscreen; in the game, it's more that the hostage heard him fighting the tribe leader before him getting killed, and from what I remember, he wasn't in the room when that happened. The boy gets traumatized by it so that could be seen as a strike against Bahir.
With boasting to the heroes...yeah, that I do admit comes off as being pretty overconfident mostly since he had taken the antidote to a bomb he was going to set off. He legitimately did not anticipate that he would be shot. So I mean one the one hand he was pretty convinced that the end was near for the player character and their partner, and add onto that he did not take into account getting killed himself. But it does come off as overconfident in some ways.
The breadcrumbs bit was part of luring them to the trap. Admittedly him stating that he was taking enjoyment from it does sound like pushing him over.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, I have to agree there.
Edited by AustinDR on Sep 29th 2020 at 7:33:11 AM
Yeah the gloating stuff was my worry. If it was just that or just the gloating I could see it as a forgivable moment but the sense I'm getting is that he wants his genius recognized to the point he kinda shoots himself in the foot.
Edited by 43110 on Sep 29th 2020 at 10:19:08 AM
You know, I'm wondering where we draw the line between Guile Hero and Magnificent Bastard. Is there a hard-and-fast rule, or do we consider it on a case-by-case basis?
As John escapes, he realizes, to his complete astonishment...the public loves him. Crowds rallied outside the police station for his release, shop owners recognize him in his civilian garb and give him free groceries with knowing smirks, and a massive chunk of New York City's opinion on John amounts to simply: "Keep doing what you're doing".
Or:
The police, Karen, and other federal agents move in as Polymath dies, planning to arrest John finally and bring him in. However, much to the surprise of law enforcement...the entire neighborhood stands in front of John, refusing to let their hero and protector be taken in after he's done a far better job keeping them safe in recent weeks than the police ever had.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid