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@:ElBuenCuate I'll cut them. Imelda for being semi acknoleged and missing key context. The parents for not explain why they were supposed to be sympathetic.
And I'll be removing the Moondancer entry on the 24th per Three-Day Rule unless I hear any objections.
Fails to explain why they were supposed to be sympathetic despite those things, cut? I'll also cut on the 24 unless I hear anything.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jan 21st 2020 at 2:46:32 AM
I think Moondancer could qualify, but not for the reasons listed. Maybe something about how Moondancer pinned all her hopes on Twilight coming to the party, then was a poor host to all the friends that did come to her party once she learned Twilight wasn't coming. Then she ended up blowing them all off in the future when they tried to engage with her.
While Twilight certainly did her wrong, seems holding Twilight as entirely the one at fault for Moondancer's reclusiveness is unfair when she did have other friends to lean on.
But I agree that the current entry is terrible and really don't care if it gets deleted entirely.
Edited by Stage7-4 on Jan 21st 2020 at 2:48:12 AM
Hey, does Uther the Lightbringer from Warcraft III come off as unintentionally unsympathetic for his actions in said game?
Situation: In mission 6 of the human campaign, Arthas, Jaina and Uther arrive at Stratholme to stop the city from falling to the Undead. Too late. The people are already eating infected grain and turning into Zombies. Arthas ordered everyone in the city to be killed to prevent the plague from spreading. Uther objected to this killing of civilians and fled with Jaina.
What did Blizzard intend with this scene? We were supposed to see the culling of Strathlome as Arthas Moral Event Horizon and the start of his descent into darkness.
However, how was the scene perceived instead? There is a large contingent of fans that argue that Arthas was, despite the horrible implications and his eventual FaceĖHeel Turn, doing what was right at that moment. Arthas actul Moral Event Horizon is seen somewhat later in the story by many people, when he hired thugs to burn down ships so his men won't try to leave, and then blamed it all on the thugs doing it by their own volition after he was recalled from his Northrend campaign by his father.
What arguements have they(those who view uther as unintentionally unsympathetic brought up?
So I'm wondering, is this an example of Unintentionally Unsympathetic?
Edited by xie323 on Jan 25th 2020 at 10:22:45 AM
Can we really be sure that D.W. in the Arthur episode "Arthur's Big Hit" was intended to be sympathetic to begin with? I mean her behavior in that episode (breaking Arthur's model plane and then blaming him for building it wrong instead of apologizing for what she did) is so clearly unsympathetic that I honestly can't comprehend how the writers could logically have expected her to come off as sympathetic to the audience. Yes, the episode did have an Aesop about how it's wrong to hit people, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the viewers are meant to sympathize with D.W. when Arthur hits her; it seems more likely to me that the viewer is meant to hate D.W. for what she did, while simultaneously learning the lesson that it's not okay to hit people no matter how much you hate them. And while you might think that the writers thought her actions would seem sympathetic with the same excuse that Fern and D.W. herself use (i.e. "She's/I'm just a little girl" and therefore doesn't know better), these are the same writers who had D.W. herself specifically use "I don't know better" as an excuse for her action, which, considering she specifically referred to it, means she does know better, and I highly doubt that the writers, who are grown adults, didn't realize how D.W.'s excuse is self-invalidating.
The episode did lean towards the Audience supposing to sympathize with DW being hit. However, its because of her irritation towards Arthur that caused people jot ro sympathized with her.
Well, okay then. I haven't seen that particular episode myself, but from what I'd heard about it D.W.'s behavior in it was so clearly and objectively unsympathetic that I found it very hard to believe that the creators didn't realize how unsympathetic D.W.'s behavior in it was.
Maybe she was supposed to seem sympathetic at the actual moment of the hit, but I can't really think of any reason the writers would have her give that extremely Backhanded Apology at the end if not to make the viewers despise her for her clear lack of remorse for her act.
Edited by SereneSpecter13 on Jan 25th 2020 at 7:24:57 AM
Found these on Unintentionally Sympathetic:
This sounds like misuse to me, as it's really an Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry using Mr. Pop as a proxy to attack Wheezie. And over an annoying laugh seems really petty.
The scene in question (apologies for the let's play commentator, it was the best I could find so far): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A5EPFxojpQ
This entry seems fine at first glance, but with context it's basically Presea fan natter. Lloyd was stopping her from killing Regal in revenge, which is in no way an unreasonable reaction. He calls them selfish for throwing their lives away.
Heck, later in the conversation Lloyd even says not everything has to be forgiven, so this entry is just wrong.
Yea I would say cut both of those. They seemed to have been written by someone very angry at these characters, especially the first one.
YMMV.Mighty No 9
Okay, this doesn't explain how he was supposed to be sympathetic, and the last sentence puts a doubt in my head whenever he is really an example or not.
Edited by PlasmaPower on Feb 13th 2020 at 8:31:18 AM
Well, here's the scene in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVy8OPV_1D8
Context being that White unintentionally made an out-of-control super robot Trinity which Blackwell temporarily stopped but got framed as a terrorist and went to prison for. While White eventually made Beck to stop Trinity for good, showing up to your innocent imprisoned father just to brag is a dick move.
Not to mention that White disowned his father over nothing, and even now knowing the truth refuses to reconcile.
So I think the entry is deserved being as White is ultimately framed as heroic, redemptive, and a visionary that his dad doesn't believe in while Blackwell is a crotchety old man unwilling to embrace new robotics (despite being untested and the confirmed danger), but that write-up is wordy and confusing.
Edited by Stage7-4 on Feb 14th 2020 at 11:17:30 AM
So all this needs a rewrite to explain how Dr. White is supposed to be sympathetic, and what he did wrong to make the audience hate him.
Edited by PlasmaPower on Feb 15th 2020 at 4:43:44 PM
YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 7 E 21 Once Upon A Zeppelin
I intend to cut because 1. the "didn't bother to Read the Fine Print" was intentional 2. They do show removes even if they are Innocently Insensitive about it and work to make it up to Twilight Sparkle best they can in the ending 3. They would have supported Twilight Sparkle not going through this, but Twi choose to do this against their advice. Objections?
UPDATE: Removed per Three-Day Rule. It also fails to explain why they were supposed to be sympathetic here.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Feb 19th 2020 at 8:03:03 AM
I toned down some of complaining, but I question if it's an example given it's a notoriously controversial issue. I believe it's misused (at least as written) as this trope must explain why they were supposed to be seen as sympathetic despite the circumstances . Those traits are why they were supposed be be unsympathetic as villain until they begin to redeem themselves. It's just complaining about being Easily Forgiven. From my limited understanding of the series it sounds like it exaggerating their negative personality traits.
With the caveat that my knowledge of the entire thing is purely secondhand, this does very much sound like shoehorned complaining about Easily Forgiven. Making Unintentionally Unsympathetic about audiences not buying into redemptions seems like a serious distortion from its normal use.
That gets like five things wrong in the first sentence alone, and also backpedels, calling all the Diamonds sociopaths but then saying Blue was the only good one. It's clearly negatively charged; even if the Diamonds fit, I'd just strip it since it's a giant white wall of over-exaggeration, misinformation, and complaining. The rest of those examples might also need a look-over, except, humorously enough, Lars' (though his does need a small rewrite).
Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Feb 20th 2020 at 2:19:10 PM
Like I said on the ATT thread, I'm unsure if we should blanket-ban all "unsympathetic before redemption" examples, because a lot of time the narrative is aiming for us to find the character sympathetic, if not the entire time, then retroactively; we're meant to see them as people who can be redeemed. So if people legitimately thought the Diamonds were too unsympathetic to be sympathetic after redemption, I don't see why it's a shoehorn just because they were unsympathetic as villains... as, well, the very fact that they were redeemed meant that they were, at some point, meant to be sympathetic. If their villainous traits were too extreme, well...
I'm not saying this to argue against the example itself being bad; it's too wordy, it's contradictory, it doesn't explain why they may have been intended as sympathetic— I'm just saying this as a general note; even obviously-unsympathetic villains could be Unintentionally Unsympathetic if the writing expects the audience to like them after a seemingly unearned-redemption.
I still think it's a serious shift of what the trope normally means. I remember earlier a similar example coming up for Darth Vader, and that seemed equally shoehorned.
Decided to rewrite Lars' example while I had it on my mind. How does it look?
I guess so; most of the misuse I see comes from examples where the character wasn't meant to be sympathetic in the first place, or utterly fails to explain how; but I'll admit that looking back, it seems the idea here is more than just "character fails to earn audience sympathy when the work wants them to", or at least it isn't "character gets redeemed, but the audience still finds them evil".
If that's just how we're defining the trope, it makes sense; just seems more restrictive an the title implies.
Seems fine to me.
Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 20th 2020 at 2:26:39 PM
Removed the Diamond Authority per this thread and two other inquiries. They might be this trope, but as written is was overly focusing on intentional flaws and came off as bashing.
Maybe we should standardize a UU format like was done for What an Idiot!?
Describe the character, situation, and intentional unsympathetic traits Meant to be ympathetic as: Why we were intended to sympathies with them despite the above.\\
However: Why audiences digressed.
At least all UU entries should start with explaining why they were supposed to be sympathetic despite the circumstances.
Replaced the Lars example.
By the way, the person who added the Diamond Authority wall was Orangutans. They should be sent some notifiers if they haven't already.
Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Feb 21st 2020 at 7:43:25 AM
YMMV.Beast Wars features an entry that I'm unsure about. It's been a while since I watched the show, so I can't vouch for the accuracy, but something feels off:
Aside from being a giant Wall of Text, information from the sequel series Beast Machines is included in the second paragraph to make otherwise-pointless information in the first paragraph relevant, suggesting that some of the unintentional-unsympathetic stuff is retroactive. The closing statement is also solely about the sequel instead of how it relates to Beast Wars (the YMMV page this entry is put in). What do you guys think?
For the Arthur's Big Hit example, one thing a lot of people leave out is that Arthur is being rude to D.W. at the beginning of the episode, even before she breaks the plane. And he could've put it somewhere safe instead of just laying out in the open if he really didn't want D.W. to touch it.
YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 7 E 23 Secrets And Pies
I previously cut Pinkie Pie as "Pinkie 1. goes through a lot of self-inflicted misery as a result 2. reconciles with Rainbow as soon they're able to establish their reasons 3. the sequel comic which released before the episode is all about Pinkie's Jerkass Realization over it. That's a lot of evidence it's not unintentional." It was never replied to so I cut per Three-Day Rule.
This one ignores that Rainbow was the one who made it a big, non-trivial deal by not admitting to not liking pies sooner (that's what Twilight and Applejack are chewing her out for, not not liking her pies). This sounds more like Rainbow being Unintentionally Sympathetic or Strawman Has a Point due to how overly seriously everyone takes it. Should I change it?
For RWBY there are some fans who sympathize with ozpins situation and think the main cast is too hard on him and some rooting for ironwoods plan to abandon mantle seeing it as the logical choice in the current situation and that ruby and the others are being hypocritical for lying to ironwood despite hating ozpin for Lying to them.
Is it safe to delete all these?
All the entries fail to explain how they were supposed to be sympathetic, and with the last one, I donít think groups can count for this reaction, can it? Thereís also a Justifying Edit right below it too.
Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 5th 2020 at 6:37:23 AM
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