The Broken Base cleanup thread discusses about examples in Broken Base, but this talks about examples in YMMV pages of works containing Base-Breaking Character, (despite being an Example Sectionectomy, this can still be seen in the YMMV pages of works) where the details on what is suitable is also vague.
Here is the criteria for Base-Breaking Character:
- A long-term, sustained conflict: Characters that were simply hated and loved, then had their interest evaporated away (both positive and negative) after a few months doesn't count. Characters in upcoming works also don't count.
- A vicious conflict: Factions that have little problem co-existing and doesn't mind about what the other faction likes or dislikes about the character doesn't count. If it's not particularly vicious and heated, then it would be cut or be listed as a Downplayed Trope.
- Two (or more) vocal, almost equally sized factions: A tiny Vocal Minority that doesn't shut up their pet peeve, whilst being outnumbered by more reasonable fans don't count. Nor does a Silent Majority who doesn't make a big deal with the other side count. If one of the hating factions is significantly bigger than the other, it would be classified as The Scrappy or an Ensemble Dark Horse.
- Little to no Middle ground: Scenarios where most of the fandom doesn't care about the character, don't count.
Base-Breaking Character is when half of the fandom likes a character, yet another equally sized half dislikes it. Now that happens, but the problem is, some entries aren't really contentious (thus not resulting in flame wars when someone says they "liked that character"). Also, several entries are one-sided towards the negative or the positive side describing that only side in detail, but then wrapping up with a single line saying "But the other half likes that character". A correct way would be describing it like "a split in the Fandom on who likes it or not", with details on both sides why they're liked and disliked.
Here's an example from YMMV.Undertale:
- Alphys. A lot of players find her character gimmick of constant messages and attempts to help more annoying than funny, especially on repeat playthroughs. And even though she has sympathetic reasons, the reveal that she's been experimenting on sick monsters to create the Amalgamates and manipulating the player to feel better about herself doesn't help, especially since she never directly apologizes for the latter.
While it may have annoyed players due to these reasons above, there has been a considerable amount of fanarts and comics or her, and not only that, the like-dislike situation hasn't been so contentious (compared to Sans, whom he's popular, now he sucks.)
edited 21st Feb '18 1:46:31 PM by AppleGates
Okay, so since the BBC entry for Sun hasn't received any new feedback, I'll just go ahead with adding the tweaked version. If there are any issues, please let me or Wyldchyld know.
Sorry, real life caught up with me a bit. Your tweaks were fine.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
This was added to BaseBreakingCharacter.My Hero Academia:
- To a lesser extent, there's the protagonist Izuku Midoriya himself to some. He's mostly beloved by fans for being an Adorkable All-Loving Hero, his Character Development from a shy and insecure weakling into a stronger and more confident hero, and being a deconstruction of the typical Shonen Anime hero. However, he has a vocal minority of haters who find him to be an annoying crybaby who won't lift a finger against his bully Bakugo and find his Character Development less interesting than other characters like Todoroki or even Bakugo himself. Although the attributes that made some people find him annoying were toned down, a few people still find him slightly irritating.
Midoriya has been brought up and shot down several times. The way this example is written makes it clear that his detractors are just a vocal minority and that it's not a strong reaction.
EDIT: The example has been removed by someone else.
Edited by Zuxtron on Sep 20th 2021 at 8:47:37 AM
Angry babby
On Futurama:
- Base-Breaking Character:
- Zapp Brannigan. Depending on who you ask, he's either hilarious or the worst character on the show.
This could be kept, but needs actual context to prove it. Zapp skews towards Love to Hate but he's also controversial by nature and may be uncomfortable in some aspects.
- Zoidberg. Despite his large fanbase, many people hate him just as much as the other characters do.
I feel this can be cut. Zoidberg may have some detractors but his reputation is widely positive.
- Relatedly, Hermes. Some find him a funny subversion of stereotypes around Jamaican people, but others feel his constant Kick the Dog moments towards Zoidberg completely destroy any likeability he has.
Cut, because I rarely see strong opinions on Hermes either way. I feel like most people like him or don't care much for him.
- Kif in later seasons. Some fans don't mind his relationship with Amy, while others didn't like how his personality changed from a Deadpan Snarker to an Extreme Doormat.
This doesn't sound extreme enough, and I don't know if people disagree over these observations — they are not mutually exclusive.
- Bender. Some people love him for how much of an unapologetic Jerkass he can be. However, some, especially after the revival when Flanderization set in, see him as a Creator's Pet who gets too much focus and too much lenience for his sociopathic behavior.
I wouldn't doubt Bender being a base breaker, given his naturally provocative behavior, but I see way too many people loving him to believe it. The few times people take issue with him going too far, judgment is placed more on the action, not Bender as a character.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
I was lookin' through a user's edits and came across this on My Little Pony 'n Friends:
"Base-Breaking Character: Shady. One side finds her pessimism and timidness funny and endearing, while others view her as annoying."
Unless the hatred-for-minor-things school of thought is in play in the minds of her detractors, just "annoying" doesn't seem enough.
Edited by Delibirda on Sep 23rd 2021 at 1:23:46 PM
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
Alright, so I'm doing a Thread Hop here and making a baseline thing for Base Breaking Character, an entry for:
RWBY: Volume 8's portrayal of Ironwood has fans divided on how he is characterized. While some believe that this was a natural culmination of his character arc since the early volumes, others think that his later actions made no sense at best and outright character assassination at worst.
Most of the people complaining about Ironwood being a villain aren't fans of the show.
Plus he already has an entry under Misaimed Fandom that explains exactly how the people who consider him a case of "character assassination" completely ignore the entirety of his characterization both in the early volumes and in recent ones.
(In fact, someone had already tried to delete his section under Misaimed Fandom without any discussion whatsoever and accusing the writers of "demonizing" him.)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I feel like your first statement is veering to No True Scotsman territory.
Redmess
Yeah, I'm also weary of the argument that complainers can't be fans.
Optimism is a duty.
Here is the updated version:
Volume 7 & 8's portrayal of Ironwood has fans divided on how he is characterized, with Volume 7 having him working towards rebuilding Amity Arena at the expense of Mantle (which he has locked down heavily), while Volume 8 has his attempts to save Atlas from Salem slowly deteriorate into madness until his line of logic is to threaten Mantle with a bomb to have his way. Fans in favor of this turn cite that this was the natural conclusion of his character arc and that many of his actions hurt everyone in the long run, backed up by statements from Miles. Fans who opposed this say that he was initially trying to do what was right, and that his later actions made no sense at best, or were flat out character assassination at worst.
Musician/Composer
Nubian Saytress has proposed the following write up for Ironwood here
:
Volume 7 & 8's portrayal of Ironwood has divided fans. He spends Volume 7 rebuilding Amity Arena at the expense of placing Mantle under military lockdown, while Volume 8 has his struggle against Salem slowly deteriorate into madness and outright villainous actions. Fans in favor of this turn cite it as the natural conclusion of his character arc, with his fatal flaws ultimately making him just as much of a threat or villain as Salem — sentiments backed up by statements from Miles. Fans who oppose this say that his decisions leap from understandable to nonsensical far too quickly or are flat out character assassination at worst. Some even blame the heroes who deceive and sabotage him or his vaguely defined Semblance, which could be interpreted as super-neurodiversity with divisive implications at worst.
Thoughts?
Edited by gjjones on Sep 30th 2021 at 6:29:06 AM
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Take out the last sentence about the whole "super-neurodivergency" and just have it end with his Semblance and I think it works.
Musician/Composer
I thought that the interpretations of his Semblance are one of the core reasons he's either considered sympathetic or detestable.
Edited by gjjones on Sep 30th 2021 at 6:43:47 AM
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
It's actually the reverse.
The Semblance was already discussed a few months ago when someone suggested it be an Unfortunate Implications example. The only thing being debated is how to interpret the creators' description of the Semblance. In the end, it was placed under Fan-Disliked Explanation because there was general agreement that no-one knows how to apply the creators' description to the show because the explanation is so vague and unhelpful — so lots of people have lots of different theories, and it was complicated enough to require an entry to itself.
The reason Ironwood's a BBC is because of his descent into villainy. Some people like it, some people hate it. When the creators tried to describe how his Semblance worked, the war over Ironwood had already been going on for months, perhaps even a year because it began in the previous volume and just got worse throughout the most recent volume. When the creators finally explained the Semblance, the people who already hated Ironwood's character journey hated that description and became even more angry. The people who had liked his character journey also disliked the Semblance explanation and felt it made the entire subject worse.
TL;DR: it's not that the Semblance made Ironwood a BBC; it was because Ironwood was already a BBC that the Semblance description became so controversial — however, the fact that the Semblance description is vague, problematic and unhelpful is basically one thing both sides of the Ironwood debate agree on, and how to interpret what the creators said does not fall neatly down the battle lines of the existing Ironwood debate (for just one example, people who interpret the explanation in a neuro-diverse way come from both sides of the Ironwood characterisation debate).
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
The most I could say for how it adds to the BBC is that fans who want to say Ironwood's villainy was great pretend it doesn't exist since the fans who said it was bad could point to it as a possible reason for his descent.
I agree. Some people who felt Ironwood's villainy makes sense did use the creators' explanation to defend their point. However, some people who felt Ironwood's villainy was terrible also used the creators' explanation to defend their point. That's why pretty much everyone in the fandom agrees that the explanation was so unhelpful — people can, and do, take it to mean whatever they want it to mean, and apply it to whatever point or interpretation they're already making. That also means the middle ground exists, where some people regard the explanation as so uselessly vague and open to interpretation that there's no point bothering with it at all. When discussing the Semblance explanation, the situation may generate debates, but that's not the same thing as a war. Ironwood's characterisation, however, has no middle ground, and it is more like a war than a debate.
If you can find a way to word it in the sense you mean (that people on one side or another latched onto the Semblance explanation to defend their point), then I certainly have no problem with you leaving a version of that sentence in — looked at from that perspective, it would be relevant to the entry.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 30th 2021 at 1:08:53 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Musician/Composer
According to Psyga's response to NubianSatyress's comment here:
I vouch for your idea, so a slight nod to his Semblance but not too much to warrant its own sentence would do.
I think Psyga and Nubian's suggestion might work unless someone objects to it.
Edited by gjjones on Sep 30th 2021 at 8:11:03 AM
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
This character is a contentious within the fandom right? Not just that there's a split in opinion about them but causes a lot of arguments. If so make sure that's in the entry.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
This was added to YMMV.Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure Vento Aureo:
- To a lesser extent, Leone Abbacchio also counts. Some fans enjoy his asshole tendencies and his chemistry with Bucciarati. Other fans are annoyed by his Jerkass attitude, and the fact that he essentially hates Giorno for existing. It doesn't help that he dies before he gets the chance to like Giorno or undergo any major development.
The "to a lesser extent" bit makes me doubt this example's validity. I don't remember seeing many major discussions about whether or not he's a good character, but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.
Yeah it's too minor of an example to count in my experience. Not everyone will agree on him but he's not that divisive.
I’m here, I guess.
On the Persona 3 page.
- Aigis seems to be this, some think she's one of the finest examples of Character Development in the Persona series, others think she's a bland Stalker with a Crush with Squick by the bucketload.
This was just added to YMMV.Robin Hood (it's under the Disney version).
- Base-Breaking Character: Robin Hood. There are two types of fans: fans who love him for his [1] personality and his occasional [2] moments like giving Skippy his hat while others hate him for going around and stealing from others and just want him off the screen.
I'm pretty sure the only characters he steals from in the film are the unsympathetic ones like Prince John.
- Abbacchio: Yeah I don't really see any strong reactions towards the character outside of his hatred of Giorno being memed and his tragic death so I don't think he qualifies enough. Cut.
- Aigis: I'm sorry, what? I'm not too familiar with Persona 3 but I don't think I've ever heard of Aigis having those two tropes, at least not enough for it to be known by general audiences. Also, the "seems to be this" sounds like Word Cruft. Leaning towards cut.
- Robin Hood: Definite cut. First off, the Lovable Rogue and Pet the Dog parts are formatted incorrectly, and secondly, the only people he steals from is Prince John, the main villain, and anyone who works for him like the Sheriff of Nottingham. I haven't seen anyone actively hate the character enough for him to even count as a Base-Breaking Character.
Edited by ejmenendez on Oct 11th 2021 at 11:29:15 AM
There's this entry Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney – Dual Destinies that's been bothering me because it's a wall of text and is mostly complaining.
- Longtime and now returning protagonist Phoenix Wright. While many who disliked the change in direction Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney took with Phoenix's character saw his return to the courtroom as a positive course-correction, just as many others disliked Phoenix shoving newcomer Apollo out of the spotlight after having already been the focus of the story over Apollo himself in the previous game, and found AA5's supposed Character Rerailment for Phoenix to be a regression instead. Phoenix not only loses the Chessmaster traits and the majority of the laidback, in-control personality that AJAA gave him, turning him instead into a much closer imitation of his nervous, panic-prone rookie self from the original trilogy, but also almost completely overrides Apollo's role as the game's central protagonist. Between Athena's introduction and story focus, and Phoenix reclaiming his original position as the main hero of the game, Apollo is left to spend the majority of the main story offscreen with most of his remaining time as the player character or a partner character limited to the story-irrelevant Cases 2 and 3. To make matters worse for Apollo's fans, the story provides generous opportunities for the sort of Character Development many felt Apollo critically lacked in his debut, and yet he misses out on them almost entirely due to Phoenix assuming the player character role for most of the game. Finally, Phoenix is very much a Static Character throughout this game's plot, with his relationship with Athena as her mentor as his only relationship to receive any particular focus, even over his own adopted daughter Trucy, who is Demoted to Extra after being a main character in AJAA.
I'm fine with it either way.