Duplicate tropes discussion thread

I think this was asked before, but I need to clarify—what's the difference between Workaholic and Married to the Job?

IIRC, someone said that the former is when someone simply loves their job too much, while the latter is when the character's dedication to their career actively hinders with their personal life. But then the description of The Workaholic describes this as someone whose life revolves entirely around their job (linked to Married to the Job), implying that workaholics also don't have much of a life or outside-work relationships.

Heh, I replied to that last month...yet another example of how broken the Discussion pages are.

As far as The Workaholic vs Married to the Job, I think it largely boils down to characterization. The Workaholic is someone who feels the need to be working nigh-constantly, while Married to the Job is largely about a feeling of attachment to their particular job/career that is so strong that it negatively affects non-work parts of their life. Not sure if that adds anything to what you already said.

Edited by Willbyr on May 16th 2023 at 8:58:11 AM

Hmm, that reads like a Distinction Without a Difference to me...

The Workaholic is someone who is obsessed with working, regardless of whether or not the surplus work is necessary for them. Someone who is Married to the Job doesn't have to be obsessed or even work that much, they just prefer to eschew other aspirations (including marrying), because they feel those things are detrimental to their focus.

Much better summation.

Also, workaholic characters can have functional relationships despite that. A character's job being detrimental to to their social life and relationships is the focal point of Married to the Job.

Someone brought up Thanatos Gambit, so I also wanted to ask about the distinction between that trope and Self-Sacrifice Scheme. As I understand it Self-Sacrifice Scheme is just a Thanatos Gambit where the person is doing it for selfless reasons so it's also a Heroic Sacrifice, though that makes it seem like a subtrope of Thanatos Gambit and yet it's not listed as a subtrope.

I think Thanatos Gambit is the broadest — it's any plan that involves your death for any motivation, whether that's because you tied a kill switch that assures victory to your life force, or having the hero kill you to drive him crazy, or dying and having your loyal minions resurrect you in 50 years to collect all the interest in your bank accounts.

Self-Sacrifice Scheme just seems to be 'someone plans to sacrifice themselves ahead of time'. It doesn't need to be the 'only' way to stop The Bad Thing, nor does it need to involve actual death I guess.

Death Is the Only Option doesn't seem to have to be a 'plan' in place ahead of time but a realization at a climactic juncture. I agree that the on page examples read a lot more like Thanatos Gambit.

...given the description, I don't think there is one, but that makes Soiled City on a Hill one of the least indicative names I remember seeing recently. (I was expecting something like "prosperous and devout theocracy portrayed as a hypocritical City Noir" - a setting that's Grown Proud but hasn't yet apocalypsed.)

The only distinction I can think of is mostly a matter of scale, i.e. whether the whole civilisation collapses or it's just a particularly godless city made an example of and everyone else repents.

Ironically, From Cataclysm to Myth was split from And Man Grew Proud in this TRS and Soiled City on a Hill was mostly overlooked.

What's the difference between Heroic Wannabe and Hero with an F in Good?

I'm guessing the former is someone who wants to be a hero but has so many flaws they do more harm than good. While the latter are people who screw things up while trying to do good.

What is the distinction between the two? Is the former a more serious examination of the self-proclaimed hero, while the latter is more comical?

Hero with an F in Good is meant to be the inversion of Minion with an F in Evil. As such, without looking too closely at the descriptions, I would think HwaFiG is about someone who isn't actually committed to the cause of good and may not even understand it, but due to circumstance or being a Punch-Clock Hero finds themselves in a heroic position anyway.

You seem to be confusing Minion with an F in Evil with Punch-Clock Villain - the former is actually someone who tries to be evil (or at least faithfully serve a cause or person that happens to be evil), but does a really bad job of it. As such Hero with an F in Good is the opposite of what you're saying - someone who is trying to be good, but keeps screwing it up.

Heroic Wannabe, OTOH, is more about someone who wants to be a capital-H Hero, not just doing "good" generically.

Re: And Man Grew Proud

Huh. Perhaps I should do a wick check then? I'm thinking of checking both tropes for not just duplication, but also possible misuse (due to Soiled City on a Hill's unclear name). Does that sound like a plan?

Violence Detector and Spider-Sense?

Violence Detector detects scenes where violence already occurred.

x4: Part of it is that my canonical example of Minion with an F in Evil is the Monster in the Darkness, who isn't a Punch-Clock Villain but is pretty much only on the side of evil because he hangs out with the villains, and doesn't seem to have any moral allegiances of his own otherwise.

Edited by MorganWick on May 18th 2023 at 12:09:22 PM

I'd love you to wick check And Man Grew Proud and Soiled City on a Hill, I am confused about those too.

What is the difference between Anti-Villain and Ambiguously Evil? Both of them are used to describe villains who can't be pegged as entirely evil.

Severus Snape is a character J.K. Rowling doesn't see as "good" per se. He's a Sadist Teacher who is a double agent for the Death Eaters with an ugly grudge against one of his students. On the other hand, he is trying to take down Voldemort, and he suffered a severe bullying campaign at James Potter's hand.

What would make him either Ambiguously Evil or an Anti-Villain?

Edited by redandready45 on May 18th 2023 at 8:38:49 AM

Ambiguously Evil is often/usually used more as an "ongoing narrative" trope about a character who might be on the villains' side. I'm not actually sure if we have something to cover that sort of "we know in the end whose side he was on, but it's still debatable how good/bad a person he was" situation.

That Severus sounds more like a case of Evil Versus Evil. Anti-Villain is a villain with redeeming qualities, and I'm not sure what Ambiguously Evil is supposed to be exactly.

What's the difference between Genre Adultery and Creator's Oddball? Both seem to be about creators making a work that's far different from the media that they usually produce.

Edited by Cutegirl920fire on May 19th 2023 at 7:58:37 AM

I believe it’s actually been brought up before, and the consensus is that they’re the same. I want to wick check the two but I have other projects to finish first.

That would mean Ambiguously Evil can only be used for ongoing stories and has to be removed at the end barring the amibguity staying, I feel like Snape would count as Ambiguously Evil because his alignment and motives remain ambiguous for almost the whole series. Given he's on the "good side" he might fall into Nominal Hero rather than Anti-Villain though.

Edited by molokai198 on May 19th 2023 at 1:02:00 PM

Something from Ambiguous Allegiance probably.

Also Ambiguously Evil doesn't require the work to be complete. As long as the plot creates a mystery of antagonist's motives, it'd be valid and The Reveal can be left as a note.

Edited by Amonimus on May 19th 2023 at 8:05:27 PM