That One Boss and That One Level cleanup.

I know nothing about that game, so I just deleted all the Word Cruft and the less important details about what may or may not happen during gameplay. Does it still make sense?

• Aurelion Sol's campaign has a powerup that doubles a champion's stat when they're summoned and when they level up, which makes killing certain value engines extremely difficult unless you have removal. Every fight node on the campaign is a miniboss fight with its respective champion's power and an additional legendary one, whose worst effects include making the enemy gain a mana gem each round start or letting the enemy place ten level 2 champions into his deck. Aurelion Sol himself summons a random level 2 champion whenever the round ends for free, one of which can be Viego, who will either steal your best unit or kill your champion at Round Start. Afterwards, you have to face a 20/20 Aurelion Sol, who can sling the immensely powerful celestial cards at no cost and summon more champions, including another Aurelion Sol.

I guess that looks good. I'll insert it in the page.

Do you all think this example added to ThatOneLevel.Arknights is too "general"? I just want to be 100% sure.

That's Scrappy Mechanic.

Edited by TantaMonty on Oct 24th 2022 at 5:22:34 AM

The following entries in ThatOneBoss.Fate Grand Order look like they could fit more in That One Level:

• Aŋra Mainiiu's Interlude is a nightmare to play through, though it's likely expected given to unlock it means you need him at Bond Level 10, meaning the developers were confident you had time to grind up for a fight this hard. There are a total of 100 Shadow Servants, with 99 of them being Aŋra Mainiiu himself and one of them being an Archer EMIYA, but only the Shadow EMIYA needs to be beaten to end the fight. The hard part comes in with how the mechanics of the fight work. Each turn, every single Shadow Aŋra on the field gets the buff Annihilation Wish, which translates as a one-turn Attack Up and a three-turn Critical Chance Up, and while they have generally low HP (none that break above 7,500), the buffs stack, meaning one of these guys can actually deal surprisingly high damage thanks to Avengers only having disadvantage to Moon Cancer (one of the rarest Classes in the game), especially if one of them manages to survive to get three of the crit chance buffs on. Once five of them are defeated, Shadow EMIYA comes out, who has three bars of health topping over 300K each, coupled with his one-turn Evade and three-turn Defense Up buff from Eye of Mind (True), which makes it difficult to burst him down even with single-target Lancers. Upon his first Break, he'll cast an unremovable party-wide Curse debuff that hits for 1,500 HP per turn for five turns, and for the second Break will cast a three-turn party-wide Invincibility buff that mercifully stuns him for two of them. And all the while, two Shadow Aŋras will be along for the ride to soak up damage for him if you want to prevent them from getting too many buffs to start one-shotting Servants (and they will if any of them were around when the three-turn Invincibility buff goes off). Dealing with this fight comes with constant micromanagement of knowing when to deal with the Shadow Aŋras and when to attack Shadow EMIYA. About the only saving grace is that none of them can use a proper NP (the Shadow EMIYA can only use the Extra Attack, but even that can eat a good chunk of even a Lancer's health and with a three turn NP gauge he'll be making a lot of use of it given the sheer amount of health he has).
• Beni-emma's interlude. First, you start off against a group of three Gold enemies, meaning that they can wail on your party for three attacks per turn, and speaking of the party, you're basically forced to use only three story supports and nothing else. Said story supports are Diarmuid Saber, who is a remarkably good servant, Tawara Touta, who is a decent AOE archer, and Fionn Mac Cumhaill... without his Strengthening quests. This means that you're stuck with three servants with one of them being below-average and left at the mercy of the RNG gods who can potentially decimate them. The second fight, on the other hand, while it does still force you to use the same forced supports, this time you (thankfully) are forced to bring in Beni-Emma as well, and face against the raid boss version of Ibaraki-Douji, though in spite of her 6 Guts buffs, defeating her hands ends the battle. Fortunately, if you manage to endure all of these, aside from the Saint Quartz the game rewards you with, you're given a decent amount of QP for it.
• Dantès' second interlude can easily be described as "Those Two Bosses: The Interlude". For both battles, you're forced to use both an NPC Dantès as well as your own, meaning you're already down to 4 servant slots (3 of your own & 1 support). The first battle is a rematch with Ibuki-Douji from Heian-Kyo and it is every bit as painful as before, and while it is slightly easier due to nerfed stats and Dantès' invulnerability pierce on his 1st skill, you'll still need to prepare a competent backline in case you get wiped out by her NP. The second battle has the return of Cernunnos, infamous for being considered the hardest story boss in the game even with a well-structured team. Since these are interlude fights, you are unable to use any Leyline Stones (if you have any), meaning you'll have to use either Command Seals or precious Saint Quartz to revive your team. Granted, this interlude requires one to complete the Tunguska Sanctuary in order to unlock, but having to fight two infamous story bosses back to back will definitely surprise a few unsuspecting masters.

For context, the interludes involving these consist solely of these battles. What should Boss Only Levels be classified under?

I'm leaning on That One Boss, personally. This is because, from what I can gather from the main page^note and I guess my experience, much of the difficulty from That One Level examples come from the levels themselves (and the enemies). Also, the main page for Boss-Only Level suggests there can't be any serious danger before the boss.

This entry under New Super Mario Bros. Wii in ThatOneLevel.Super Mario Bros has been bothering me for a good while:

• 8-1. A massive Difficulty Spike with an Advancing Smog Of Doom, constant rocks raining down, lava plumes everywhere all make the hellscape scenery look authentic. Just see what happened when the Freelance Astronauts decided to try it with four players... Hilarity Ensues.

It doesn't seem to have that much context, and the part about the Freelance Astronauts is irrelevant.

I'd cut "constant rocks" plus everything after that and hide the example for lacking context.

Oh, I remember that level. Proposed rewrite:

• 8-1's main gimmick is that the volcanos in the background will erupt as the player progresses through the level, showering the screen with deadly rocks. Up to 6 stones can rain at a time, some of which are three times larger than Mario's sprite, and they also destroy blocks, potentially denying the player access to power-ups. The other main hazard is a poisonous fog that slowly spreads from the left side of the screen, forcing Mario to keep moving or suffer an instant death. While the level is challenging enough when playing by yourself, it's nearly impossible on multiplayer, as the layout of small/temporary platforms means there are not enough safe spots for everyone to avoid the numerous obstacles.

Looks good to me

The Salmon Run mode from Splatoon 2 and Splatoon 3 has its own page. In addition to including actual levels, it also includes Boss and King Salmonids (who would fall under That One Boss) and events (Which I guess count), but it also includes weapon loadouts, which I don't think qualify under any circumstances. For context, in Salmon Run you can't choose your weapons, there are 4 weapons that rotate roughly every day and every player is assigned one at random. Some weapon combos do suck, but I don't think that counts as a level. What should we do?

Looks good. I'll swap it in.

I agree that the weapon loadouts don't count as That One Level, though I don't know if there's a suitable replacement.

Maybe move to an Salmon Run-specific Scrappy Weapon section involving terrible loadouts?

But they're only scrappy weapons in this specific scenario and combinations, is the thing

Maybe see Trope Finder to see if you can find a replacement, because I personally don't know if there is one or not.

Alright, I'm calling Fate/Grand Order players to discuss about Exhibition quest bosses, which are basically Challenge Quest bosses on steroids. From the gameplay/story viewpoint, they are not required to complete the main storyline. Players are not barred from getting the holy grail even if they don't complete them but they are one of the only ways to get a Crystalized Lore which is required to max out a Servant's skill level. But it is so rare that a lot of players complained quite often about it.

Should Exhibition Quest bosses be considered Superbosses like Challenge Quests for the management of FGO's That One Boss page?

Often more than not, Exhibition Quests are the main feature of "Nerofest"-esque events, so safe to say they can be kept if they're deemed extremely difficult by their standards (harder to clear than a 90++).

I know That One Boss has a restriction that final bosses can only count if they are out-of-place hard even by final boss standards. Is there any corresponding restriction for levels? As far as I can see, That One Level does not mention any restriction for final levels.

The last level of Oh No! More Lemmings was removed with this edit reason: "Havoc 20 is the final level, so it can't be on this list." I'd like to add it back. Lemmings games don't have a The Very Definitely Final Dungeon; each level is a roughly equal chunk of gameplay and this one just happened to be placed last. And being an especially tricky timed bombers level with very little leeway, it certainly qualifies on grounds of standing out from other levels.

I'd imagine that final levels are fair game for the reasons you said, so it could be added back.

Yeah, from what I hear from you, the final level is extremely difficult even by final level standards. Definitely keep.

(x3) From my knowledge, final levels can still count as That One Level just as long as they still fit the bill. So, I feel you should bring it back.

Yeah, final levels can absolutely be examples. There might be a slightly higher standard for the difficulty jump, but we already have things like The Meat Circus on the page, and no one in their right mind would argue that one is misuse.

This was recently removed from YMMV.Battletoads, with the reason given being that it's misuse:

• That One Level: Nearly every single level, but several levels particularly stand out:
  • The most infamous level is the Turbo Tunnel, the third stage of the game, which is when the difficulty goes through the roof for the first time. You ride on a hoverbike, with walls and enemies heading towards you. At first, it's pretty reasonable; the difficulty curve doesn't try to actively kill you until after the second checkpoint. What gets most people is when they place several short double walls in succession, as they require consistently timed jumps, or the section near the end with a bunch of high single walls, as it requires a delicate rhythm to weave through. Of course, once you finally manage to get through it, some of the later stages turn out to be even harder.
  • Level 6, Karnath's Lair, otherwise known as the snake pit. Giant snakes come out of the tunnels in the level, and you need them to climb to the top of each portion of the stage to advance. It becomes stupidly hard, even with a guide, because in the later segments you must drop from one snake to the next, and it must be timed perfectly or you will miss the next snake and land on Spikes of Doom. Also, good luck on the fourth room. The Genesis version is arguably even worse, mostly due to malicious changes in the physics that make your foundation to stand on disappear faster, as well as a newly installed glass ceiling in the fourth section that forces you to take the long way to the exit. Thank the Lord the second room has a megawarp, which will also allow you to skip...
  • Level 7, Volkmire's Inferno. It's basically a Shmup version of the Turbo Tunnels with your toad straddling a one-man jet. For the most part, it's much easier, and it contains checkpoints, too. However, the last leg where the walls come at you faster and faster (again, similar to the Tunnels) can be nerve-wracking. The final barrage of walls will seem to follow a pattern, with the safe zone moving from the top of the screen to the bottom and back again… only to fake you out by moving back to where it went, right before forcing you to move from the top safe zone to the bottom one with nearly frame-perfect timing.
  • Level 8. Intruder motherfucking Excluder. An elevator shaft from hell, with the elevator replaced with a cornucopia of pixelated nightmares. You see, every stage up to this point technically had a difficulty curve; notice how we were going easy on Turbo Tunnel and Volkmire's Inferno. Intruder Excluder throws that out the window. Every enemy in this level chops off half your life bar, and every non-enemy hazard is instant death - fans in the walls suck you in or blow you into a bottomless pit, and gas dispensers dispense their instant death gas pretty much the instant they appear on screen. It's also a Rise to the Challenge level with Ratchet Scrolling; if you miss a jump, or get hit by knockback at the wrong moment, you're dropping into the abyss with almost no chance for recovery. Robo-Manus isn't much better, since both his bullets and his insta-kill Goomba Stomp ignore Mercy Invincibility. You will rue the day you ever witnessed this level with your own eyes, even if you're playing the Genesis or Famicom version.
  • Level 9, Terra Tubes. It's an Absurdly Spacious Sewer covered in Spikes of Doom, but in this case, you're swimming just to make it even worse. It's littered with fish and sharks who will knock you into the spikes for a one-hit kill. The only areas without spikes have ducks that can kill the toads in one hit with no need for spikes. There are also sections where you grab a helicopter-like device and float down a tunnel full of spikes. However, what makes most people throw their controller at the screen are the Advancing Wheels of Doom, primarily for being extremely trial-and-error based and the fact that at one point, you have to make it past four in a row until you reach the next checkpoint, and, of course, so much as graze the wheel or any of the large number of spikes and you're dead in one hit. Obstacle dodging, fighting, swimming, floating, outrunning wheels... yes, this whole level is a Genre Roulette, where, at virtually any point, the 'Toads are one hit away from being killed, which is a problem as there's a lot of Checkpoint Starvation, and it's the longest level in the game. It's another level that's maddeningly difficult even in the comparatively easier Famicom and Genesis versions, let alone the infamous NES version.
  • Level 10, Rat Race. The first two aren't that bad by Battletoads standards, but the third race is an extreme endurance test. You race a rat named Giblet, whose pattern is running straight until he hits a wall, and then turning around. The problem with the third race is that most of it consists of beams whose openings are at the other end, then falling to another beam with its opening at the opposite end. Since Giblet runs faster and falls faster than you, your only bet is to headbutt him on every beam so you can push him up a little and prevent him from falling. The problem is, this requires consistent timing, and you're expected to do this nearly 10 times in a row! There are only two sections of this race where it's a zigzag of falling, giving you a chance to catch up. And even then, the second one is very short. The only way to avoid this is to exploit a Good Bad Bug mentioned above. Worse still, you have to fight General Slaughter at the end of the whole mess, and he means business, to say the least — mess up once, and he can Stun Lock you to death.
  • Level 11, Clinger Winger. It qualifies for two reasons: First, due to a bug, it is impossible to win when playing two players in the American NES release (it was fixed in the Japanese and European NES releases as well as in the Genesis remake and its appearance in Rare Replay), meaning it is impossible to win the game unless you're playing solo (or wait for the other player to lose all their lives so you can continue by yourself). The other reason is that it's essentially the aforementioned Turbo Tunnel (there is very little room for error), only made even harder: this time, you're riding a vehicle along a wall that diverts into four directions, and you need to push the corresponding direction on the d-pad to move quickly. You slow way down any instant you aren't doing this, and your timing on corners needs to be absolutely perfect, as you only have a very small amount of margin for error until the Hypno Orb catches up to you and instantly kills you, at which point you must restart the whole thing again. Again, arguably even tougher in the Genesis version, since the shape of the controller's D-pad makes it much easier to hit a diagonal and completely botch a turn. Oh, and you have to fight the Hypno Orb that chases you at the end. Fortunately, they don't make you go all the way back to the beginning if you die to the Orb. All bets are off with a second player.

Now, I agree that listing 7 levels is overkill (especially since the game only has 12 levels, meaning that over half the levels are listed). That said, given how Battletoads is one of the most infamous Nintendo Hard games out there, there certainly are levels that stand out. I would say keep Turbo Tunnel (due to it being the level where the game's difficulty goes through the roof) and Clinger Winger (due to the Game-Breaking Bug and because there's zero room for error), and if we can add up to 4 levels, keep Volkmire's Inferno (which I consider "Turbo Tunnel but harder") and Rat Race (mainly because of the last race).

What you you guys think?

Edited by toonyloon on Dec 31st 2022 at 8:15:00 AM

Turbo Tunnel should definitely stay since it's the most infamous level in a hard game. I barely know anything about Battletoads and I've heard about Turbo Tunnel. You can also keep Clinger Winger due to the bug.

Unsure about the other two.

Edited by Karxrida on Jan 1st 2023 at 1:08:23 AM

I agree with on keeping Turbo Tunnel (I'm familiar with its infamy), though I'm not 100% sure on the others.