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Black and White Morality
- Why does Batman say that he knows every criminal is the hero of his own story? Yeah, he's the fan favourite, so he's always gotta be right, but it seems out of character considering his rogues gallery, and how he deals with them.
- Given how many of his Rogues Gallery like to blame him for their condition (an idea explored before), it's not too surprising he might follow the logic of "They see me as the bad guy, although I'm a hero. If villains see me as a villain, then they see themselves as the protagonist, the hero, of their own story."
- This is best seen in his treatment of Harley, whom, after rehabilitation, is one of Batman's most reliable allies.
- Batman is a expert at getting into his foes heads, and most of them are in it for moral satisfaction of some kind. Riddler, Penguin, Freeze and many others consider themselves victims of a cruel society, and that they are in many ways justified in their actions. Even Joker is confident that he is right.
- The point has been made in a number of places that most people see themselves as the hero of their own story.
- Towards the end of the game, Batman reveals that Firestorm has created gold kryptonite, which is capable of taking away Superman's powers permanently. So...why didn't they use it sooner? It seems like a much more practical solution than building a large, one-of-a-kind red sun prison that they have to keep under constant guard.
- It's entirely possible that A, Bruce still held out hope that Clark was redeemable, and B, he also realized that he would probably still need Superman for certain Godzilla Threshold situations, such as the very events of the game, even if he could only admit this to himself. He didn't want to irreversibly depower Clark unless he was 100% certain there was no hope left for him.
- This still doesn't quite pass muster in the Batman ending, where Clark is banished to the Phantom Zone, threatening all the while that he'll get loose. Why not ensure that Superman can never return by permanently removing his power, rather than leaving a lingering threat to potentially re-emerge somewhere in the future, possibly on a world without Batman and unprepared for the fury of an evil Superman?
- Batman did depower Clark/Superman with the gold kryptonite in the absolute justice ending, but considering Batman actually took Clark threat seriously, it heavily implied that the depower is not going to be permanent.
- There's also the fact that Batman only just got Firestorm on his team. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that all other gold K had been destroyed long beforehand.
- Also, as of the Absolute Justice ending, Supergirl has joined Batman, and apparently a reformed Justice League, vowing to make the Shield of the House of El a symbol of hope again. So Batman has a Kryptonian heavy-hitter available, and Superman is now officially more trouble than he's worth.
- So as we all know, Atrocitus has no ties to any of the factions and just wants to make Hal Jordan into a Red Lantern. Except why is he trying to make Hal into one when he has a golden opportunity with Superman. From an in-universe standpoint, Superman has two things that Hal doesn't: superpowers without the ring, and an event that broke him and left him enraged (Hal gets Coast City's loss later on, but that's after Atrocitus is taken care of). Having someone who already has a Superpower Lottery become a Red Lantern would do a lot of good for Atroctius, and the tragedy of Metropolis and its effects on Superman's psyche would probably make him easier to break and succumb to the rage than Hal. From a meta standpoint, it might make Atrocitus a wee bit better tied to the overall plot, since Superman is one of the game's three big characters (alongside Batman and Supergirl). You could say that Atrocitus doesn't know who Superman is, but what the developers could've done is have Atrocitus initially hunt down Hal Jordan, only to learn about the Last Son of Krypton and decide to hunt him down instead. It just seems like a wasted opportunity.
- Superman is likely not controllable, and was complicit in the Sinestro Corps' slaughter of dissidents during the One Earth Regime. Atrocitus likely intended to grant Hal a ring, then order him to eliminate Superman as his first act among the Red Lanterns. Besides, Kryptonians can survive removing a Red Power Ring as shown by Supergirl's brief tenure with one, which is probably not a desirable trait, since tearing the ring off is probably a very good execution method for those who abuse it, as Superman absolutely would.
- Atrocitus still wants to be in charge of the Red Lantern Corps. No way Superman would take orders from him.
Superman never mentioning Brainiac
- Why did Superman never mention the fact that his homeworld's destruction was brought about by an alien named Brainiac? It's a little believable, albeit a stretch, that he would never bring this up to Hal or Barry, or even to Diana, but you'd think at the very least, he would've told Batman about Brainiac. It just seems really odd.
- He was just a baby when Brainiac destroyed Krypton. Chances are it's just history to him and he assumed Brainiac had been dealt with.
It's Harley! The Easily Forgiven Clown!
- So despite the fact that Harley was all too happy to help Joker in his nuke Metropolis plan, and despite the fact that she has never shown any remorse over this, even being gleeful about it, Batman gives her a spot on his new Justice League. What The Hell?! So all of the innocent people in Metropolis that she helped murder just never existed to him? She and Joker were the freaking cause of everything that went wrong! Harley should have been executed for what she did but no, Batman has forgiven her and everyone who interacts with Harley treats her like a quirky friend. What gives?
- Harley was a completely different person back then because of the Joker's abuse. Now that he's dead, she made a complete HeelFace Turn, even stating that she likes doing good things. In other words, Batman's "no killing" rule granted her a second chance and, while she's still the same Harley that helped the Joker screw up the entire world, she's still completely reformed to the point of earning Batman's trust.
- Also, in the comic, Harley states she didnt expect the bomb to actually go off. Its SUPERMAN. She thought he would stop the nuke from detonating and save Metropolis, making the whole thing a high-stakes joke.
- That really doesn't help her case. When you nuke a city and kill 7 Million People, you don't get to slide by with "It's just a prank, bro!"
- Most of the cast hasn't forgiven her. The ones that have are Black Canary and Batman, who have both wanted to redeem her for a long time. And Batman may be gruff, but he has always been willing to give a villain a second chance, indeed I can think of dozens of former villains that he has personally mentored in the comics.
- In Wonder Woman's chapter, Harley readily admits guilt for the people she killed with her Mister J. As a ploy to make Diana realize they're not so different, as Wonder Woman is also guilty of murdering the innocent for the affections of Superman, and according to Scarecrow, subconsciously aware of her guilt. But Diana is continuing her slaughter of criminals, exhibiting no remorse whereas Harley is willing to enforce Batman's edict to not kill to the point of defiantly fighting a battle she is sure to lose against a murderous Amazon.
- As the former heroes of the Regime have fallen Harley has risen. She has shown plenty of remorse, she's just choosing to channel it into being a hero rather than moping. By doing so she is helping save the world. That's a lot more useful than executing her.
- Harley's also a beautiful object lesson as to why the Regime is a bad idea. For every Joker, where the world smells better after he's gone, there's a Harley, who if given a chance can reform and become a true hero.
- The thing about Harley Quinn's "redemption" that really rubs me the wrong way is that, nearest I can tell, its something of a retcon/Character Derailment for this game. From what I understood of the years 1-5 storyline, (which I admit is limited to playing the first game, reading the first few issues of the comics, and watching a summary of years 1-5 of the comics), Harley wasn't actually redeemed; she was still a supervillain after metropolis, as she killed two cops to escape and tried to kill Green Arrow, and only ever expressed sadness that Joker was dead. She later caused the riot at Arkham, and as soon as Joker came back, she went back to him and helped him against the interests of the insurgency; it seemed to me she only worked with Batman because she wanted protection from and hopefully revenge on Superman for killing her puddin', and Batman only accepted her because she was a valuable asset, especially for her ability to lead Joker's followers and because it makes a powerful statement that "what Superman is doing is worse than what she did in Metropolis," and is likely to make Superman angry so he'll make mistakes. It wasn't until Altuniverse!Joker betrayed her again that she seemed to remotely wise up. Yet this game treats her like she's a fully reformed hero.
- Just more proof that she should've been tried and executed or at least locked up for life. I hear the Phantom Zone is good this time of year.
- Does it really matter when she had her Heel Realizaion? She may not have got it right away but eventually she did have it and start getting her act together.
- Point taken. But we're pointing out potential inconsistent writing (and questioning why Batman trusts and forgives her so completely). There's also there's a difference between a Heel Realization and simply losing loyalty to someone. Just because she knows Joker will always betray her doesn't mean she regrets doing horrible things with him and won't either find someone else like him who she thinks won't betray her, or just be a villain solo, especially since she seems to enjoy causing chaos and never cared about anyone but herself and her lover.
What happened to Superman when Brainiac's ship zapped him?
- Kara couldn't find Superman's body or pick up his heartbeat afterward, suggesting that he was destroyed or Brainiac collected him, and not long after Brainiac said that Kara was Krypton's sole survivor and his last chance to study the effects of yellow sun on Kryptonian cellsagain, suggesting that he had destroyed Superman. Yet later aboard Brainiac's ship, Superman shows up just in time to save Batman. If he was captured and digitized like the cities, and Brainiac said what he did about Kara because he needed a live vivisection to get the information he needed, nothing in Brainiac's collection has been shown to be capable of breaking free on their own. So... where did he go? If he went to go off and recharge from the damage he took, I think *someone* would've noticed him leaving the crater? This is one of the things that wasn't really explained at the end.
- This is no true answer, but assuming he was collected, it's fair to surmise that Superman, being who he is, was probably much more capable of trying to break free than the billions of individuals Brainiac has collected. This includes the imprisoned Kryptonians, since they haven't had the experiences Supes has had and likely were less powerful as a result. That probably raises more questions as to how supposed genius Brainiac doesn't notice what happened to Supes, whether he can monitor the things he's collected or if he's being overly arrogant, but that's a plothole for you.
- He could have been buried under the collapsed rock.
- I'm well aware that Space Is Noisy tends to be the case in comics, but the tie-in comic for Injustice 2 establishes that there's no sound in space, so he could have flown into space and become undetectable by sound (it also establishes that there's no air in space, either, but he could hold his breath).
- How is Damian Robin in the game and Nightwing in the actual story apart from a flashback chapter? If he is mostly still Nightwing in the story then why have him advertised as Robin and use him as Robin in the gameplay outside the story?
- Watsonian Answer: Damian has little reason to go back to being Robin, seeing as he longer works with Batman, so it makes sense for him to remain Nightwing in-story. Doylist Answer: There would most likely be a big backlash if Nightwing was announced, only for it to be Damian Wayne (even if it makes sense for story mode); that, and the developers likely wanted Damian to stand on his own ground, apart from Dick Grayson.
Scarecrow's Fear Toxin
- The justification for how Scarecrow, normally a non-combatant, is able to tangle with the heavy hitters of the DC Universe is that he's using his Fear Toxin to create a hallucination of himself to fight his opponent. This brings up some questions. Namely, his demon form appears as a constant with every character. Does he have control over what his opponent sees, creating this demon form, and does he have control over this form? Are they both in affected by the toxin, but Scarecrow has full control over what he does in the hallucination? Normally, the toxin brings out the worst fears of his enemies, but it seems that Scarecrow is able to use it to make himself a demonic creature he has full control of, maybe, which appears as a universal constan. Is this a bit confusing to anyone else?
- There is also the suggestion that something supernatural is going on, seeing as Jonathan Crane is dead. This Scarecrow also seems unusually well educated on the mental traumas of his more obscure foes. Personally I'm going with this new Scarecrow having a bit of magic augmenting his chemicals, and summoning Jonathan Crane's ghost to aid him in battle.
Brainiac Sure Took His Damn Time
- If Superman fights Doctor Fate in the story mode, the latter comments that Brainiac's interest was piqued when Superman decimated the GL Corps. An event which happened years before the events of Injustice 1 and well before Brainiac invades the Earth in 2. What the hell was Brainiac doing during all that time? Sitting on his ass doing nothing? Surely traveling through space can't be THAT time consuming in the DC-verse, and not for a genius like Brainiac. If he was waiting for the Regime to fall before invading, that would make sense, but that's still a lot of waiting for capturing someone he really wants to kill/collect...
- The universe is a very big place. Brainiac could've been trillions of light years away from Earth when word got out on what Superman did to the Green Lantern Corps. Even accounting for the FTL methods of travel that are possible in the DCU, such a trip would probably take quite a long time, even for someone with Brainiac's intellect.
- It's also possible that he may have been delayed collecting worlds along the way.
The Hypocrisy with Catwoman
- Intro dialogue show Barry and Hal being called out for being a part of the Regime with Selena being among those (more to Hal than Barry), despite her also being a former Regime member. Was this retconned into her being a spy for Batman, because within the first game, it was strongly implied that she was with the Regime believing that they can't be stopped(Which was what led to Batman rejecting her completely).
- It seems to be an oversight (A big one if you will), as Batman does have an intro where he calls her out for joining the Regime and doesn't trust her. Given Catwoman has a history of playing sides to her advantage and as a thief, it's unlikely that her being with the Regime would make her any more untrustworthy to the other heroes (Indeed, she leaves Batman in her ending because a quiet married life with him is boring to her). Obviously you can argue they are being hypocritical given Harley is an ally, but it's not like she has been the most trustworthy person throughout her life.
- Catwoman was probably not one of the Regime's heavies like Hal or Barry were. She was in it purely to protect Batman, and not out of ideological reasons. As a consequence, she was likely not saddled up with the more attrocious crimes the Regime committed. Hal and Barry on the other hand were fully on board, and had the power to cause untold damage everywhere the Regime held one of its 'police actions'. Given the disparity between how much suffering those three could have inflicted, it's no wonder people would still hate Jordan, be wary of Flash, but completely forget Selena.
- It's also worth noting that Green Lantern and the Flash were heroes before they started helping enslave the world. Catwoman was a villain, albeit a far less evil one than some. Aside from a few who knew her personally nobody was really expecting any better from her.
What. Freaking. Birthright?
- Several of the intro and clash dialogues have Grodd claiming that he has some kind of "birthright" to rule. Even ignoring that such snobbish entitlement has always been more Damian's thing, I don't recall Grodd ever being confirmed as having Blue Blood or any sort of royal lineage. So unless I'm not understanding the word correctly, what the hell is he talking about?
- Well he did kill Solovar to be King of Gorilla City according to the backstory. It's part of his background to hate Solovar and think himself above everyone, so claiming he has the birthright to rule isn't too out of character for him. It's likely he's just so egotistical that he thinks he was born to rule everyone, not necessarily indicative of having royal heritage.
- Alternatively, I seem to recall Grodd's father being a king or something in his New 52 origin.
MK vs DC is Canon?
- Raiden and Sub-Zero repeatedly reference the events of Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe and its heavily implied that the Injustice Earth is the same one where that crossover took place. Except there is one big problem: neither timeline measure up. Lex Luthor in MK vs DC was a supervillain, while Injustice!Lex was always a good guy. Meanwhile, its made clear that both Raiden and Sub-Zero come from the rebooted timeline (as their endings reference the events of X) where the events of Mortal Kombat were far more catastrophic and drastic. MK vs DC takes place after Shao Kahn's failed attempt of Earthrealm's conquest in the third game which ended on a happier note, whereas in the rebooted timeline, several heroes die and are turned into zombies (including Sub-Zero). So how does this work?
- Broad Strokes as well as MST3K Mantra. If I had to guess, MK vs DC is canon to MK, but not the Injusticeverse (Joker only recognizes Sub-Zero because he's a Fourth-Wall Observer). MK vs DC, or events similar to it, could have still happened in the reboot timeline, and they crossed-over with the mainstream DC verse in between Kahn's special tournament and invasion, and it's now just an adventure nobody mentions.
- How would Raiden and Sub Zero know that they are in a different universe this time? To them it will look very much like the same one gone wrong and they'd only work it out if someone sat them down and covered recent history in detail.
- MK11 would seem to have a partial answer to this; the Joker guest starring in that is explicitly the one from MK vs DC, given that he recognises and is recognised by the characters he met in that game but never once references anything from either Injustice game. He also refers to Superman as "boy scout" suggesting he's still a hero in the Joker's home universe. As such it seems MK vs DC was indeed canon to the ongoing Mortal Kombat story but the version of the DC universe they crossed over with was not either of the ones featured in Injustice. But, as noted above, Raiden and Sub Zero would have no way to know that.
Why is Thawne here?
- Reverse Flash/Eobard Thawne's backstory is that he ran back in time to torment Barry Allen, only to find that he was unable to return to his own time because one of his ancestors was killed by the Regime before they could continue the bloodline. But if this is the case, how can Thawne even exist in the Injustice timeline? Surely he should never have been born?
- Time Paradox. He technically shouldn't, but since he was in the past when his ancestor was killed, time essentially locked him into that point. It's a particularly cruel fate for anyone, but poetically fitting for him.
- There's no time paradox though unless time travellers were involved killing his ancestors. Otherwise he would have never been born.
- Thawne may have done something that caused his ancestor to be killed when he otherwise would not have been. Or, just possibly, he did something that caused the Regime in the first place. I doubt Netherealm would like to put all that on him but it is conceivable. Perhaps the Flash was able to stop the Joker in the original timeline and Thawne was messing with him, preventing him from doing so.
- Timey-Wimey Ball. Seriously, it's a trope for a reason, and this is one of them.
- If we assume that Thawne killed Barry's mother like he did in the main version, then it's a pretty standard Grandfather Paradox. He goes back in time and kills Barry's mother, causing the chain of events that lead to him becoming the Flash. The Flash and other heroes end up creating the Regime, and the Regime kills one of Thawne's ancestors (they don't say who, but it's probably Malcolm Thawne, Barry's twin brother, who's the professional criminal Cobalt Blue and distant ancestor of Eobard). With Thawne's ancestor dead, the line that leads to Thawne's birth doesn't exist, and so Thawne doesn't exist, but if he doesn't exist, then he couldn't go back in time to kill Barry's mother, so Barry never becomes the Flash, and he doesn't end up helping to create the Regime, and the Regime doesn't exist, so they don't kill Thawne's ancestor and the line that leads to Thawne's birth exists, so Thawne exists, so he goes back in time and kills Barry's mother, causing Barry to become the Flash, and he helps create the Regime, and the Regime kills Thawne's ancestor... lather, rinse, repeat for eternity, and you have a paradox.
Seriously, why is Thawne here?
- Let's ignore time paradoxes. They're just One Of Those Things. Sure, why not? But why can't Thawne just reestablish his own future by preventing the Regime from ever existing?
- The Reverse Flash's time travel is...spotty at best. Time travel by Speed Force in general is. He may not be able to pull it off.
- When the Atom enlarges an atom in intros, its nucleus has three types of particles, one red, one blue, and one white. If one type are the protons and one type are the neutrons, what the heck are the third type?
- Other protons/electrons. We don't know that they're all the same colour.
A government solution
- We hear in this game about how Batman failed by not being willing to kill. Here's a better question, why doesn't the government kill Joker and others like him? Before the destruction of Metropolis the Justice League were just super powered cops. Granted cops do have the right to kill, but only to save lives in extreme cases. So if the Joker is so dangerous, why not give him the death penalty?
- The jurisdictions Joker gets tried in may not have the death penalty.
- Plus any lawyer worth their diploma could make an insanity plea stick.
- Lets me ask you this, after what happened in Metropolis, what lawyer would be willing to defend him. Also I think in a case of mass murder, which most versions of the Joker have committed, a insanity please would or should be thrown right out.
- "If you cannot afford a lawyer one will be assigned to you" or however that goes. Some poor sod was assigned every time he was caught. And the insanity plea applies to everything, that's the point. The argument is the defendant is guilty but was not in control of their actions due to mental illness. This is where comic book story structure runs up against reality of course; in reality it's very rare for a dangerously insane person to escape from confinement in a high security mental health facility so the first time they caught the Joker would have been the end of it. The law is not constructed to handle the absurdly frequent escapes of supervillains. Well, supervillains the fans like anyway. When was the last time the K. G. Beast escaped?
- It's hashed out on the general Batman Headscratchers page that Joker is sane, just a nihilistic psychopath. He's perfectly elligble for the death penalty, but eveidently no DA could realize that (or convince the jury of this) during all his other trials.
- Whether the Joker is "sane" or not is a matter of opinion. Personally I never bought it; the Joker acts consistently irrationally and that would seem to define insanity to me. But really that doesn't matter as it's been noted that he is very, very clever and knows psychology better than most experts. As such he can con those examining him into diagnosing him with whatever he feels like today. He will use that to avoid execution, since that's not how he wants to die. He wants Batman or, failing that, another superhero to kill him, to prove his views on the world right and, frankly, to have exactly what happened happen.
- But the good thing about a trial is that more than one story will be presented. Joker might be able to con a psychiatrist, who will then testify that Joker isn't responsible for his actions, but then the DA will bring in dozens of witnesses, video tapes, writings by Joker etc that will say that Joker knows what he's doing is illegal and immoral, but chooses to do it anyways because he finds it funny, and to prove a philosophical point (both perfectly sane reasons). And then cross-examine said psychiatrists to ask them if a sufficiently clever psychopath has ever fooled a psychiatrist, or if the diagnosis they have Joker after a brief session with him makes sense with all the other evidence presented, and then show the jury examples of actually insane people and demonstrate how different from them Joker acts.
- There's a simple answer to this, and it's always going to be the same, no matter how little sense it makes in-universe: Joker Immunity. The Joker is one of the single most recognizable characters of the past century, and he's irrevocably tied to Batman as his greatest enemy. It doesnt matter if regular cops can shoot suspects, because Random Criminal Nr 28 isnt a pop culture icon.
- A better but similar question is why is security in these jails so weak? This is asked even in universe as to why supervillains get out so easily. Some of even the popular one could be kept longer with simple changes as making sure their equipment is not in the same facility as they are or make the gadgeteers stay in the library. This was more excusable in the silver age then now.
- Yeah, it's a trade off for these stories working the way they do. If jails were any good in a superhero universe then you could only use villains once, maybe twice if you let them be defeated but escape the first time. Anything more than that needs awful security in prisons or heroes who really suck at capturing bad guys. At least the first option allows the main characters to still be cool.
- Villain jails, even Arkham Asylum for that matter, has been shown several times to have high-tech solutions that makes real life supermax prisons look like a cardboard box, it's still not enough. Power supressors, shock collars, they put the prisons in another dimension, and there were still prison breaks. What are they supposed to do, nail the inmates to the floor?
- While there are villain prison jails doing their part to try to curb villain escapes, Arkham has always been lax in security if one clown can treat it like a halfway house. The only time I've seen it remotely trying was in the first episode of Harley Quinn, where she was in for a year and a very hard to discover trick got criminals out. Overall the Joker is an extreme case where killing him may be the only option, but what hurts Superman's some lives claim is that he went far further then was necessary.
Bane, what are you doing?
- Just WHAT is happening in Bane's Supermove? He punches the opponent into the air and then jumps after them to punch them higher and higher before plunging back with meteoric force? What? Is he flying or how does he keep catching up to the sap he punches skywards? In a game full of superheroes and magical fights, THIS is the one that makes me scratch my head.
- Basically when you're a superhero or supervillain physics become your bitch. It's no more unbelievable than non-powered folks surviving Supergirl's trip-round-the-sun-and-heat-vision-through-an-asteroid-back-into-the-planet Supermove. Kyptonian pills or not that should kill everyone on the roster except her, her cousin, Darkseid, Wonder Woman and Fate. Even Swamp Thing would at least lose a body to that.