This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Mikado: Someone should do a troper tales page for this and the shotacon entry. That way, we know who to report to the police.
Animeg3282: Got a question about the fruits baskets examples- is it really lolicon if your love interest is technically an adult? There's no canon shots showing that the spoiler couples did anything before say, the age of 16 or so...[my cut off for loli, subjective,yes]
Seth: The Loli redirect is useless, it is linked everywhere as Lolicon and it could only serve as a link trap at best. Someone has been going nuts with the redirects recently. Stop it.
Citizen: Hello there, Seth, we meet again... I don't know about this redirect rampage you refer to, but I did not expect such a strong response on this page. Thinking of Loli as an anime character type, I thought a redirect might be useful. It was called Loli and linked to Lolicon on at least one page here somewhere, possibly not even by me. ^^
Ununnilium: I'd say it's useful.
Just a reminder, the age of consent in Japan has been raised to 16 for females. 18 for males. Enforcement appears spotty.
Cassius335: Where'd you hear that, Blaise? Wiki still has the japanese age of consent listed as age 13 for both males and females.
Duckluck: Yeah, I did a quick search of Google news and found nothing to indicate that it had been changed, and one blurb that indicated that it hadn't. Unless someone can track down solid evidence, I'm going to say that Blaise was misinformed.
Citizen: Might that be age for marriage?
Flaser: *nods at abcd_z* The age of consent as dictated by law is "13". What most people forget is that a "law" isn't the only regulation one must obey:
"Municipalities and prefectures have their own particular laws such as Tokyo’s “Youth Protection Law” which prohibit adults from having sex with youths who are under 17 years old. Because the age of consent in Japan ranges from 13 to 18, depending on jurisdiction."
Citizen: "You and your dad are really close, Konata."◊
Cassius335: Heh. What series is that from?
Duckluck: Am I the only one who's bothered by the fact that we don't use the term "pedophilia" anywhere in the main body of the text? I mean it's not as if there's any question that that is what a Lolita complex is, so why are we dancing around it by calling it a "fetish" or an "obsession?" Something about the way this page dances around the issue really just rubs me the wrong way.
Cassius335: Let's keep the politics out of this. This is supposed to be a FUN site. Besides, look at the second quote up top.
Duckluck: What politics? "Lolita Complex" means female-oriented pedophilia. That's just what it is. Also, I haven't seen the SVU episode in question, but the way it's described over at There Should Be a Law implies that the episode in question tried to be condemnatory, but wound up just being stupid. Either way, it still seems like we should mention pedophilia in there some where. Especially since, according to US law, drawings of children in sexual positions are still considered to be Child Porn (and therefore, a felony and sex offense). Actually it turns out there are some politics...
- Fuzzy Boots
- I'm not entirely certain if that particular law is still on the books... I remember when it was trotted out (with much panic among the Sailor Moon fandom who suddenly realized that they'd been writing stories and drawing pics of underage kids, something which had apparently escaped their notice previous) and when it was repealed. I remember it got replaced by a similar law which was again overturned. A major issue was ambiguity. The law essentially said that if the subjects looked underage, then it was illegal which led to much question of whether it had suddenly become illegal for people of age, but of a pettanko build, to post pictures of themselves.
Big T: First off, no it doesn't. LC refers to female-oriented Ephebophilia, as Lolita only becomes unattractive after she becomes an adult. A person with a lolita complex exclusively likes girls that are under the age of consent. "Female-oriented pedophilia," as you put it, covers both more and less. But I digress from my point...
I think Cassius was using the term "politics" loosely to cover topics that can start arguments. While loli and lolicon are mostly connotation-neutral, pedophilia has a decidedly negative connotation, and is more likely to put people into argument mode. (Heck, it worked on me.) This just isn't something we want on this site, as it is supposed to be fun.
Cassius335: Exactly. Thank you.
SpiriTsunami: If that is what it means, then there's been some semantic drift over time. If we are indeed using Lolita and its Unreliable Narrator as our basis, then it is supposedly rare for someone to maintain these characteristics much past the age of 14. Yet on this site, stuff usually does get linked to Lolicon in the Ephebophilia cases, and anything that's actually pedophilic just ends up linked to Squick, a bit of a peeve of mine, one that goes into Berserk Button territory when the older person in the relationship is also fairly young (I'm mainly thinking of all of those Mahou Sensei Negima examples with one of the 15-year-old girls with a crush on 10-year-old Negi, but I also remember at least one such occurrence with someone denouncing the Felix/Sheba ship this way—18 and 14, respectively). I've also seen the phrase "a bit to young to be a loli, even" applied after calling someone a Token Loli—when said person was 11, smack-dab in the center of Humbert's 9-14 range. This is all just semantics anyway, because we all know that true perfection comes at age 16. XD No, seriously. Ask any modeling agency. Well, actually, they've banned underage models from the runways now, because they're trying to do something about the self-esteem issues women supposedly have. The 16-year-old girls were just too perfect; it wasn't fair to any of the adults who were supposed to be trying to emulate them (or not, one would hope). Okay, I'm finished now.
Tricksterson: So maybe we need an official site definition? Just my personal proposal but under 10 would be relegated to Squick, 10 to 14 as Lolicon and maybe a separate category, say Jail Bait for the 14-18 year olds? Just a suggestion. As for the legal questions since the age of consent varies all over the world, some nations not even having one, and even in the US it varies from state to state I suggest we leave that argument alone.
Drow Lord: Might just be due to the page reverts, but just in case... Amy is the gothloli character from Soul Calibur, not Tira.
Brickman: Removed Romeo and Juliet reference: At the time, that WAS the standard age at which people got married and started trying to have kids. Just because it's taboo now doesn't mean it was even out of the ordinary when people lived half as long as they do today.
Citizen: "There aren't many boys who can resist little girls..."◊ =P (Omamori Himari)
Jisu: Who moved the caption to below the picture? It's like that usually, but for this one, it's supposed to be above.
Xavius: To me, "Lolicon" will always sound like a laughing smiley (:D).
Foton: pretty much a comment, but some may invoke an "Our Lolis Are Different" thing, in the sense that any character is loli as long as they have flat chest, even if they are Really 700 Years Old, in which if said character are of that age, so much the better, as it goes around the Unfortunate Implications.
Regiment: Wait... "Lolicon" is sometimes written "roricon" because it... comes from the English and French? Just because the Japanese pronounce something a certain way doesn't make it correct. That's like saying that the cathedral "Notre Dame" is pronounced like the American mispronounciation.
Twin Bird: But "lolicon," even though the words it's made from are English, comes directly from Japanese, where it's technically "rorikon." If you were to be faithful to English and French, it would be "lolicom." Really, the bastardization "lolicon" has no grounding other than "just having stuck somehow."
Troper: I think the Evangelion example should be removed, because 14 year old Asuka and Rei are clearly way past puberty. It would better fit into a jailbait trope (in the US) if one exists.
Cassius335: Um, Fast Eddie? Can we have the pic back, please? The original one, from before Dragon Quest Z changed it. (And why now to put up a "no images" tag, when this trope has had a pic on it for some considerable time? Are you doing that "I hadn't got round to being offended until now" thing my mother used to do?)
Fast Eddie: More like I'm not interested, so I haven't seen it in years. Putting images on these items that the ad server already flags causes the article to be dead weight, revenue-wise. The article works fine without a picture.
Westrim: Since when was this site about revenue? Since when was locking pages okay? And since when did we need a reason to put a picture on a page? But, if you need one I'll give you several; it sums up the concept pretty well, it's funny, it's been there for a while with no issues and it gives the page some color, which is useful on any page as it keeps the intro from just looking like a wall of text. That's four; you might have the revenue thing, which, again, I did not realize was the point of the Wiki. EDIT: Changing it back again and relocking the page without even commenting isn't very cool Eddie.
Tricksterson: If you're not interested what are you even doing on the topic, much less interfering?
On Allison Harrington - she may be theoretically post-pubescent, but she is not normal height for an Asian woman. She is not anywhere near normal height for an Asian woman. Two-thirds Honor's height is the size of a seven-year-old girl. Even rounding up a generous couple inches is 130 cm - child or dwarf height. This is what a proportionate adult dwarf Allison Harrington's height looks like (The guy's very tall, take off 20 cm to get to Allison's husband's height). Weber's thing for writing frequently pregnant women the size of elementary schoolgirls (yes, there's more than one in the Honorverse) probably fits here better than it fits anywhere else, especially with the way Allison's tiny size is overtly sexualized. I suppose it could go in Author Appeal.
- I could go over this point by point, but I'll just say that short doesn't equal loli. She's still a 100 year old, 30's looking woman that is stated to make the armsmen feel mothered. Not a loli. If you want to discuss the rest, we can start a forum thread.
Midonin: I'm trying to remove the Strike Witches entry from the article, as it doesn't really fit — aside from the character designs, almost no elements of the actual lolicon thing in there. But with the article locked...
Jethro Q Walrustitty: Is the article locked? It needs to be added to the Trope Names From The Japanese index.
Willbyr: It must be; I tried to put the picture back in and couldn't get the edit page link to work.
Tricksterson: Who locked it and why?
Westrim: I'm pretty sure it was Fast Eddie, presumably annoyed with the restoration of the image and unwilling to explain himself further than "page is not a source of revenue." Look a couple conversations above.
Tricksterson: Well, is there anyway to unlock it?
Muninn: Probably by getting either Fast Eddie or Janitor to do so. From the way Eddie kind of just dropped in here, locked it, and ddropped out of the conversation, chances of him unlocking it are probably slim.
Deuxhero:I'd like "Note to be confused with an Ephebophile." added above the examples line somewhere if one of the admins feels like doing it.
SpiriTsunami: Ah, so I'm not the first to notice this.
Citizen: Forum discussion about this page being locked. And Janitor just wiped all the examples. Go figure.
Mac Phisto: who the hell is this Janitor guy? seems like quite the sociopath
Deuxhero: And Janitor couldn't bother linking to Ephebophile while v was at it?
Pyrix: Why were all of the examples removed? While it does explain a lot of the article as a whole having the examples provided flavor for the article and also told you which series' had it and what not.
Red XVII: I don't see how examples are offensive, illegal, or whatever. Moreover, the forum discussion seems deleted as well. It really seems unfounded ...
Wascally Wabbit: Now that its locked and exampleless, could we perhapse bite the bullet and include the word 'paedophile' in the text?
Somfin: Nope. Can't change a damn thing.
What the fuck? is Tv Tropes getting sabotaged from the inside or what is going on here? Why would anyone ruin the article removing all pertinent examples and then lock it? Aren't there admins this can be reported to or something? It seems like a total act of vandalism.
- There are admins, they're the ones who did it.
- Fair enough. Can we keep the removed examples here for posterity? This is the kinda stuff discussion pages are for, right?
- Can we get the Shotacon page locked too, please? I don't see any reason why it should get away.
- 'Just mentioned it on the forums, and it has been locked. DOUBLE-LOCK WIN.
alighieri: Seriously, is T Vtropes now finally turning into another Wikipedia for good, with admins doing basically whatever they want and "big name" editors getting the right to simply decide what's good enough to get included into their pet articles? It doesn't look like there was even a vote on this, some guy just came along and say "no more examples, also locked."
It would most certainly seem that way, it's not just tvtropes either, over at rule34 they are deleting the lolicon images, though the started with toddlercon, which I admit Im partly glad for. At any rate it would seem there is a trend towards asshattery and extreme censoring lately, just wait a little and the term itself will be a banned word. And since sadly enough the ones pulling tha crap over here are the admins themselves I think we should start a new tvtropes, hell one of the core principles of this site was there is notability, however now it looks like lolicon examples are not notable, screw that, we need either a change in admings to some who dont have sticks so far up their asses they come out of their mouths or a new site period.
Komodin: The lolicon "examples" weren't cut for not being "notable," it's because the admin responsible most likely thought the page would work best as an exampleless (and perhaps, less Flame Bait-ish) article.
You misunderstand, namely because I didn't explain properly, what I mean is that every other trope with pertinent examples includes them in its article, because there is no notability any trope with an example gets added when someone finds it, however, excempting lolicon from that goes against the notability principle. It's not that the asswipe who vandalized the article did it because it wasnt notable, its just that his vandalism contradicts the principle of no notability, regardless of his motives, which seem to be revenue as stated above before they stopped showing their face and vandalizing from the shadows. As for flamebait, this is the internet, everything is flammable, and I for one think its a much more honest and respectable to be flamed for sensitive subjects than for censoring and vandalism. This is a fun site, not a business for some admins to be editing and censoring what doesnt give them revenue, if the site is doing that then it is clearly failing its purpose and either needs to change or be replaced.