So, What Measure Is a Non-Badass?. These examples are... not great? The trope is "characters are mocked by fans because they're weak." These, however, seem to largely be "fans are sad that these characters are weaker, therefore less relevant" and/or "these characters totally aren't that weak and if you say so you're wrong." Emphasizing the last one because they were largely added by one now-banned troper with serious control issues over the page.
- What Measure Is a Non-Badass?: Dragon Ball fans are really guilty of this trope. If a character is not the strongest or near the top tier, they're written off as worthless.
- Gohan gets hit by this the most since he experienced Badass Decay that took him from being the strongest unfused character at the end of the Buu Saga to being far below Goku, Vegeta, a newly revived Frieza, Beerus, Whis, and later Future Trunks. Gohan, however, is still by far the strongest character outside of those characters. His lack of spotlight since the Resurrection 'F' Saga hasn't helped anything. Some of this is finally beginning to ease now that Gohan has his Ultimate form back.
- Piccolo. Some fans are upset that he has been lagging behind the power scale since the end of the Cell Games since he can't even stall the Big Bad and gets The Worf Effect if he fights The Dragon. Piccolo refusing to train with Goku and Vegeta in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber during the Champa Saga, saying that he can't keep up with them, has also rubbed many the wrong way. Eventually, Piccolo does manage to catch up somewhat during the Universal tournament, but he still exists to highlight how being Weak, but Skilled is not a bad thing and having a proper grasp of battle tactics is important. This also got better after fans saw Piccolo's performance against Super Saiyan 1 and 2 Gohan.
- All the fighters from U6 except Hit and to a lesser extent Magetta get this from some fans. They are called 'weak' because only Magetta could challenge a regular Super Saiyan and only Hit is up to Super Saiyan Blue level, forgetting that Goku and Vegeta are literally Physical Gods even in their base forms. Frost alone is stronger than Frieza after he trained outside of his ultimate transformation and Frieza in his first form shot holes through Super Saiyan Gohan, who was nearly comparable to Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan, and Cabba, who lacked a Super Saiyan form before Vegeta showed him how to do it, is likewise many times stronger than Gohan (since he's equal to Vegeta's base form). Some of this stigma is starting to fade away after fans saw how well Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks performed against Copy-Vegeta (who was as strong as base form Vegeta).
- It is safe to say any character who fails to push Goku or Vegeta into using their Super Saiyan Blue forms fall into this. Most of this is because the fandom completely underestimates how powerful Goku and Vegeta have become, specifically in their base forms.
- Even Goku Black fell into this. After his first fight with Goku when he was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku (although it was clear that Black was holding back and had a case of Worf Had the Flu), some fans dismissed him as overrated and wasn't a suitable threat. That is until Black got stronger, enough to take hits from Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta in his base form, and revealed his Super Saiyan Rosé form. From there, he promptly takes out Vegeta and Goku with help from Future Zamasu. For those who thought it was was a fluke and Black just took Vegeta and Goku by surprise, he did it again in their third fight with ease.
- Future Zamasu gets this because fans think he's a cheat for being an immortal and is a weakling who would have died several times. While Future Zamasu is a cheat, he isn't as weak as fans make him out to be, mostly because they think Future Zamasu is the same strength as Present Zamasu who got beaten by Super Saiyan 2 Goku, when in fact Future Zamasu is within the power range of Super Saiyan Blue Goku, although he is noticeably weaker. It also doesn't help that Future Zamasu drops his guard all the time so people like Super Saiyan 2 Trunks can tag him.
I guess it depends on the relativity of "badass"? Gohan certainly goes through periods of being "embarrassingly weak" to "everyone amazed by how much 'potential' he has". He gets beat up by one of Frieza's henchmen in the series, so I'd say he's a valid example. I also think that the non-Hit and non-Saiyan U6 also count, since they're mostly jokes. Sure, they had gimmicky powers that the U7 characters had to get around, but they're treated as total pushovers once that weakness is figured out.
Everybody else is shoehorning, no question.
So the thing is, as written, each of these either contradicts the "what measure is" part of it (by basically saying "audiences like the character fine, but he's not that badass") or contradicts the "non-badass" part (by basically saying "no, he IS still badass").
None of them, as-written, say "the Audience Reaction is that they don't care for the character because they're not badass." Most of them are "Audiences don't think they're as badass as I do" which is a shoehorn.
If you want to do a rewrite for the ones you think count, by all means. For most of the ones I know of (Piccolo and Gohan, in particular) the reactions I've seen haven't been "we don't care for these characters because of their lack of badassness," but rather the exact opposite ("we care about these characters even though they're weaker than we'd like, and it sure would be cool if they were strong enough to be relevant").
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I agree with everything you're saying, but I think Gohan can be written to work.
There's a ton of fans on the internet that consider Gohan to be an outright disappointment, especially during his aforementioned embarrassing loss to a Frieza soldier.
I say cut for now. If I get time to rewrite the examples later (I've barely been active on this site in months due to busyness), I'll post it here first.
I don't watch Super (only occasionally skim some internet discussion), but the Signature Scene section looks incredibly bloated (especially the Universe Survival section). I highly doubt all of those moments are that iconic.
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Unfortunately it's one of those tropes that's prone to being bloated with gushing. Nothing anyone can do about it.
... I mean, you could trim it.
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You absolutely can trim it. Signature Scenes are work defining moments, scenes that are so iconic that they are recognized even by the general public. To the point where even people who have never seen the series (like me) might even recognize it. And when you think about the series, the Signature Scene will probably be the one of the first things to come to mind.
No matter how you look at it, things like "Freiza talking with Sidra and Roh" are not that iconic.
should we add UI goku to ass pull he got it from getting hit by his own spirit bomb which makes no sense all 3 times (4 if you count master as a seperate) times he gets it from getting beaten up which is not even how it was "foreshadowed" by whis as act with out thinking
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No. The Ultra Instinct is gotten from extreme exhaustion, and the Spirit Bomb opening the transformation is not that weird.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
when was it said to be gotten from exhaustion the form is sapose to be "act with out thinking" how does being exhausted factor into that
and if that is the case why didnt vegeta get it or any one else if tiring your self out is all you need to get it and dont say training we have seen NO training for the form whis gave one off hand mention and that was it no special training was ever shown
No, it doesn't count. An Ass Pull is for when something comes out of nowhere with no explanation or foreshadowing. UI has plenty of both.
We can't shoehorn examples in just because we don't LIKE how it turns out, or because one character gets it and another doesn't. Dragon Ball (if not all shonen) has ALWAYS had some character unlock a new level or transformation or something because they were the chosen one or whatever while other characters just weren't worthy for whatever reason.
Bottom line, though: no, it doesn't count.
Secrets behind the Tournament of Power: https://youtu.be/sspDkiOHUr4
Oh boy, people are reacting more negatively with Toei about Kale and Ribrianne.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
I AM KING OF THE BEACH!!
Is Bulma a Base-Breaking Character? Because I think some people find her hilarious while some find her gags annoying.
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Not a big case I think. People seem to like her just as much as in Z and the original DB.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Not one that's worth mentioning. BBC entries only really needed when both the fans and haters are extremely vocal. Bulma ranges from being liked to not having much attention from fans.
We should delete this entry that appears under Hilarious in Hindsight:
- In Sonic Adventure 2, Brian Drummond, as Sonic, called Shadow a faker. Here, in the Potaufeu Arc, Drummond plays an actual faker, Copy-Vegeta.
The reason being that Brian Drummond who played Sonic in Sonic Adventure 2 is actually a completely different voice actor than the Brian Drummond who voiced Vegeta in the Ocean dub and plays Copy-Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super dub.
Edited by DustyBlind Hide / Show Replies
Agreed, delete it then.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Could be possible to add an entry for Broken Base and the S-Cell debacle? While all the other stuff could be chalked up to the fanbase being a bit unpleasable, the S-Cell thing is being reported and people opinions on it are strong. Or should it be added to the Dragon Ball Franchise entry?
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I sugest the franchise entry, since is not exclusive to Super.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Also for that matter, it seems that every entry that said something about Ribrianne killing the 2 crossdressers should be edited since now they appeared cheering for their universe. I know that some of us understood already before; but this confirms that it was just a gag moment.
Man, everyone is really hating on the Manga version of Super. . . .
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Most of the complaints there are a leftover from the Troper Ramona, who seemed to have some kind of dislike towards the manga. He's currently banned permanently due to constant edit warring with the final ban being the Ass Pull between the two versions of Infinite Zamasu. You are free to remove them if you think they do not qualify
I also noticed Ramona had some dislike over the manga. Besides, the manga and anime fights are mostly a case of Fandom Rivalry, but the reception over to Goku Black's personality is something I can actually confirm to be true.
I personally believe the manga is Growing the Beard, as the Universal Survival arc has exceeded my expectations.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Loekman 3, Cool i just might. The manga might have its issues, but it still can be enjoyable to read.
To be frank, Ramona's fingerprints are all over this page to the point that I have little idea of how the fandom feels, just how Ramona does. They had severe ownership issues.
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Hmm, well, If you please.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Likely. I'd recommend use of the discussion page before making any major cuts, though.
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DarthWiki/TheFelineFolliesOfFelixTheCat
Okay, this is the second time that Caulifla has been added as an example of "The Scrappy":
Despite not even being a day since the first example was added onto the YMMV page and her character page, and quickly removed:
For the following reasons:
To avoid an edit war, does anyone else feel the need to add a Base-Breaking Character entry? ~Tomodachi noted that it would be too early, but it seems that she'll fit in that department due to have an equal amount of detractors and fans (which is not what The Scrappy is).
Edited by XMenMutant22 Hide / Show Replies
Sounds good to me. At the end of the day, Base-Breaking Character and The Scrappy are two different tropes.
Ryoko.
We used to have Base-Breaking Character but it's in cleanup along with several other Broken Base anime pages and we havent heard from it since.
That's obviously some new troper who doesnt properly understand the term or read edit summaries. Until we get BBC back, just move the entry to Ass Pull as it seems to be very specific about Caulifla's speed at obtaining forms.
Alright, I proposed this draft:
something alot of people dont seem to know alot of the SSJ struggles wher toei filler almost every one other than goku got it off panel in the manga
gotenks got SSJ 3 after seeing it once through babidis magic (the scene on the look out is filler) with just a few days of training
Is sorta different, people love Trunks, Gohan and Goku first time transformations, and Toei managed to make a strong connection to that (The fact those three transformations scenes always appear in videogames should tell you something) . While Caulifla isn't breaking anything new, to a lot of people who grew with those transformations, it feels it cheapens those scenes in particular.
I obviously don't care, but I do understand where they are coming from.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
and what about gotenks he trivilized SSJ 3 shortly after it debuted
Everyone does that in Dragon Ball Heroes. And I particularly never liked that transformation.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Alright, I'll make another one. This time if Fusion Zamasu's final manga form with the clones is an Ass Pull.
Gowasu explained they fused on a cellular level and that they were both rejecting the defusion. The word "cellular" might be a bit ambiguous here, but I think it's safe to say both have the same "Zamasu essence". What is clear from this statement is that the fusion process for Zamasu is not going properly, either due to the pseudo-immortality or due to the Zamasu's not wanting to defuse. In the anime, it manifested as the mutated Light of Justice Zamasu, while in the manga it manifested as incomplete fusion.
While you could say why Fusion Zamasu regrowing from body parts was not fully explained, it didn't come out of nowhere this time. Because Gowasu explicitly stated the Zamasus were making the defusion go wrong, so some sideeffect was expected. While in the anime they actually made it look like Trunks slicing Zamasu was the end and nothing would come after that, before suddenly a Zamasu wallpaper fills up the sky.
The implication, while not fully stated was that Zamasu didn't actually split into Goku Black and Future Zamasu at all, but it was always Fusion Zamasu but with the appearance of Black and Zamasu. Them messing with the fusion caused his two halves to look like Black and Zamasu, but ultimately they were both still Fusion Zamasu.
I'd prefer someone aside from Ramona also weighs in their opinion on this too, because if it's just us two it will be an endless argument.
Edited by Snowy66 Hide / Show Replies
If the manga said 'cellular' level, I am incline to believe that is what Gowasu meant, especially with the 'they're the same person'. Which doesn't make sense since Black doesn't have the same 'cells' as Future Zamasu. Even their souls are not exactly the same since they had different experiences. Especially the whole Black and Future Zamasu both becoming Merged Zamasu including their their part they regenerate. Not even Buu's regeneration works that way.
Him defusing going wrong doesn't explain why his parts become whole people.
Future Trunks in the anime outright destroyed Merged Zamasu's body. There was no 'regeneration go wrong', it was destroyed. Merged Zamasu lived because only his physical body was half immortal and his spirit lived. Which is how he was able to rewrite the laws of the universe. A little farfetched, but the part clones is just a big 'what' moment.
Why? Would would Merged Zamasu take the appearance of Black and Future Zamasu before randomly becoming Merged Zamasu again?
I don't think we need a third party since it is generally agreed that both the anime and the manga pulled an Ass Pull with Merged Zamasu. Well...I honestly only seen this site called the anime version of Merged Zamasu merging with the multiverse an Ass Pull, but we have already had that discussion. Which Ass Pull makes more sense isn't really worth arguing about. We just need to keep the tone neutral and let readers makes up their own minds.
Could be a mistranslation or someone didn't think about the science behind the word. The point is they are both Zamasu so something in them is same enough. For starters their ki was close enough that Beerus and Whis recognized it as Zamasu's in the anime. I would disagree on the souls since experience has nothing to do with genetic makeup, or the soul equivalent of it, but that doesn't really seem relevant. Well of course it would be different from Buu's, every character's regeneration has worked differently from Piccolo's to Cell's to Zamasu's. Buu is actually pretty close since when Majin Vegeta blew Buu up, all his pieces regrew into mini Buus first. Zamasu did nearly the same thing, except they were full sized.
Ass Pull is something that has zero foreshadowing, like Trunks suddenly gaining a new Super Saiyan form that jumped to God-tier. Sure Zamasu's thing wasn't fully explained, but it got plenty of foreshadowing that something was going to happen.
But it was made to look like the saga would end there. It's a clear case of Ending Fatigue. They made it look like it would end, but it didn't. "regeneration go wrong" is irrelevant, as people considered it an Ass Pull long before the manga showed up. It didn't get the appropriate foreshadowing that something like that would happen before it happened.
Okay, so "cutting an immortal in half gives him the ability to rewrite the laws of the universe" makes more sense to you than "cutting an immortal in half makes him endlessly regenerate"? Just because you were okay with it doesn't mean it made sense to others. Immortal =/= universe assimilating essence/spirit/soul, for a character to do the latter they generally need something more than just immortality, they need the capacity to even spread that far to begin with. Where did Zamasu's essence even get that much mass from?
Because of the abnormal fusion that Gowasu talked about. The Potara wanted him to defuse, the Zamasus didn't want to, as well as Zamasu not meeting the fusion conditions with the immortality cellular stuff. It reverted him because the Potara tried to defuse him, but he went back to fused form due to the Zamasu's resisting the change. End result, he doesn't split back into a whole person but instead his two halves go back to what the single person would have looked like. Honestly seems pretty clear to me.
It wouldn't hurt for someone else to weigh in. Okay, you want to see evidence? I went and dug up one of the forum threads about that topic. Here you go: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:581292
Seriously, we're using Dragon Ball wiki? That place is filled with issues. For everyone of those forums, I can dig up place I visited we had no problem with Merged Zamasu and had a lot of problems with what the manga did: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=241413030#post241413030
The ki is similar, but also different as noted by both Whis and Beerus. We're also mixing stuff from the anime to explain the manga when they're two different continuities. I also said it was different from any regeneration we have seen because you brought up 'we have seen characters regeneration before'. We have, but not to the extent of suddenly making clones of themselves and Merged Zamasu couldn't do it before. But suddenly he can pull it off after he defused which isn't given an explanation. There is no foreshadowing for Merged Zamasu's clone technique.
Super Saiyan Rage is no more of an Ass Pull then the original Super Saiyan taking Goku from being beating up by 50% Frieza to overpowering Frieza, after he utterly exhausted himself to boot.
I don't see the Ending Fatigue you're talking about. It was made to look like Merged Zamasu lost for the twist in that 'nope, he isn't dead'. Nothing about Ending Fatigue.
No, that isn't what happened. Trunks destroyed his body. What merged with the multiverse was Zamasu's spirit. That was explained in the show. He was able to do it because he was an immortal and by Trunks destroying his body, he freed Zamasu's essence.
The abnormal part makes no sense since Black and Future Zamasu shouldn't have bonded on the cellular level for the reasons I named and Black and Future Zamasu both becoming Merged Zamasu who can somehow make clones of themselves by their blow body parts make no sense. And to be blunt, most of what you wrote is your head canon since the manga didn't really imply that. All it said, Black and Future Zamasu resisted defusing since they were the same person and bonded on a cellular level, despite Black being in Goku's body and should have none of Zamasu's cells.
Well both Ass Pull are Broken Base then, neither is loved by majority.
Well I only brought that up tp explain the soul thing you said which wasnt even said in the manga. It may be a somewhat different regeneration, but we've still seen regeneration before and is not a new concept. But universe assimilation has never been seen or heard before. Most past villains had foreshadowed/explained weird abilities. Frieza transforming was hinted by Zarbon, while with Cell the whole arc was to stop him from absorbing androids. Only Buu splitting was a bit out of leftfield but was given extensive explanation later. Nothing implied Zamasu was going to do that.
As i already said, they didnt foreshadow that exactly, but they foreshadowed something would happen since his fusion was unorthodox. And as you told me, people compared the clones to.Majin Buu so it's not new either.
Are you serious? The entire Frieza arc had been endlessly mentioning the Super Saiyan of legend that scared Frieza shitless, it couldnt possibly be more foreshadowed. There was no reason to suggest Trunks had a new form, let alone a completely unique one to him.
Twist or not, it could have ended there but didnt. That's what the trope is. An opportunity to end earlier but writers drag it out longer. It's like how Buu Saga could have ended with Ultimate Gohan or Vegito, but dragged out to include Kid Buu.
Immortality has never been implied or stated to.allow merging with universe. If you destroyed Garlic Jr's body, would he merge with the universe too? Gowasu said he shed his physical body which was a BS explanation that didnt clear up how he did that. I could understand if Zamasu emerged as a spirit of about his size, but how could there be enough of his spirit to spread the multiverse?
Forget the dammed cellular thing. They could have said molecular level or anything, the point is they were stuck because they were "close enough". Gowasu clearly stated Zamasus were resisting defusion. Their struggle to remain fused and the Potara trying to fuse them went wrong. They could have better explained why it went wrong with this particular result, but the fusion malfunctioning was clearly indicated. The malfunctioning fusion gave side effects which havent been explained yet, but they have already cleared up the fusion was going wrong.
Edited by Snowy66
What is loved by the majority. I have only seen a minority complained about Merged Zamasu in the anime. In fact, this is the first time I have heard that 'many people hate it' and I visit several forums.
Not explained like that in the manga, so we really can't used headcanon here.
I didn't foreshadow anything. Merged Zamasu's fusion wasn't called unorthodox until this chapter. Also people said it was like Majin Buu, but Merged Zamasu's regeneration never worked like Buu's. It was closer to Cell's. Also, people compared it to Black's endless clones from the anime.
Mentioned Super Saiyan is one thing, but that form allowed an exchanged, half-dead Goku surpassed a person who beat his ass at 50% power. Yeah, that is an Ass Pull. Also, no reason? Gohan got Super Saiyan 2 from pure rage, so why are we acting like a rage form is something new in this series.
It could, but that isn't what the author wanted. It's called Hope Spot not Ending Fatigue. I mean, the Frieza Saga could have ended with Frieza dying to the Spirit Bomb too. The Saiyan Saga could have ended with Vegeta dying to Goku's Kamehameha or him getting hit the Spirit Bomb. The Cell Saga could have ended several times with Semi-Perfect Cell or Perfect Cell.
No one has ever been immortal. The only person is Garlic Jr. So can you say 'immortality has never been implied' when there was no one to compare it to? Garlic Jr wasn't even Toriyama's creation so why would he used Garlic Jr as a base?
That wasn't a BS explanation since we saw Merged Zamasu's body get destroyed. And wasn't 'enough of his spirit to spread the multiverse'. He merged with the multiverse, period. His spirit didn't grow and I am not even sure how you reached that conclusion
No, I will not. The manga said cellular level so I am not going to disregard it. Have a problem with that, then you should be mad at Toyo for writing it. If I have to forget something that the author wrote to make something work, then it's an Ass Pull. Deal with it.
Edited by Ramona122003
Both of you, please knock it off. Since you both were involved in an edit war, both of you will be brought in for a talk.
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Having thought it over, I've decided the edit entry can be left as it is. Unless someone else wants to give their opinion here, otherwise I'm dropping the issue.
I apologize for the trouble caused.
In regards to Zamasu Eldritch Abomination, Ramona 122003. Did you forget the Ass Pull debate on this very discussion page where nearly everyone said it made no sense?
I've also seen people on the wiki hate on the ending. Even people who don't hate it usually just call it creepy or terrifying.
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From the forums I have went to, people think it's creepy and terrifying in a good way. And I have only seen the asspull debate here. Everyone where else, most people didn't mind Eldritch Abomination Zamasu and thought it made sense since he was an immortal.
And it wasn't nearly everyone here. It was a handful of people. As for the ending, reading Love It or Hate It entry.
Well I've only come across a few who liked it. The majority of opinions I came across had been ticked off by the Future Trunks Saga for several episodes already and that was the final straw. The only place I've found with mostly positive views is in YT comments. I assure you the tropes discussion page is not the only place where there was negative views, it's just you didn't happen to find any other places.
I wasn't talking about the ending with Zen'o destroying the timeline and Whis creating a new one, I meant the Zamasu final form. I know about the Love It or Hate It entry since I've been here the whole time.
Edited by Snowy66
Are we really YY comments for anything? I visit several sites and an active member, including Neogaf that has a big Dragon Ball community, Reddit, Kanzenshuu (the oldest Dragon Ball community on the web), and even some Youtube personalities. Most don't mind Zamasu's final form, although they found it Narm. This site is the only place I have found more negative feelings about it and even then I don't see anyone who despised.
But this is why YMMV exists, because I have not seen the negativity you speak of.
Well I've seen whole threads and blogs of people thoroughly turned off by the final few episodes of Future Trunks Saga, with the Infinite Zamasu form being one of the complaints.
If you found positives then fine, but it's simply incorrect to say it was near universally loved. Maybe it's coincidence that the places you went to liked it, but I ran into very few of it (not just here).
I don't read blogs and I am not sure what thread you go to.
I never claimed it was near universal love. I just said I personally never really heard anyone who hated universal Merged Zamasu and most places I visit are indifferent to the changes in the manga with some disliking it since it feels like Toyo is copying again.
I never had a problem with the entry, but your first entry didn't explain what people liked better, just listed the different, and then you claimed many liked the change, which I never saw. So, I just tone down the language.
Alright, well I didn't really know where else on the page to put it. If you can think of a better entry to put it under to account for the divisiveness then go ahead.
I think it's fine. I just never heard this particular criticism and wanted context.
It was deleted by the moderators, and is being fixed on the Cleanup page. Apparently, too much natter.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Bringing this topic up again: Isn't it time to enable folders on the YMMV page? Each new episode increases the clutter and makes even the former Naruto YMMV page jealous.
Edited by Nikumubeki Hide / Show Replies
Yeah, I think is time for the folders to be created. I'll wait for Ramona opinion, though.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
You really don't need my opinion on this. I think folders are fine since the page is long despite me moving several items to new pages.
I was even thinking making Author Saving Throw its own page. But I want to wait. Base-Breaking Character could be merged with the Broken Base page. I have seen it done.
Done, I gave folders to the most troperific tropes. However, I think Base-Breaking Character should have its own page, but we could wait for a while.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
If you're going to folderize, it should be alphabetical, not by trope.
I apologize. u_u
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
There is a debate if Merged Zamasu fusing with the universe is an Ass Pull. Here is the entry:
For other fans, the reveal of Zamasu's spirit form and the events of Episode 67 are an even worse example, since it combines an Ass Pull with Shoot the Shaggy Dog and a Diabolus ex Machina. Basically, if Zamasu had the power to merge with the multiverse after losing his physical body and destroy all of humanity, then we didn't he just blow himself up from the start?
For one, it was made clear that Merged Zamasu was half immortal, so it wouldn't make sense for him to die when Trunks split him since half an immortal is still an immortal, like half of infinity. Only half of his physical body was turned mortal, not his soul.
Also, why didn't he become the law of the universe before? When he did, he basically became an Almighty Idiot and lost his sense of self. Not something he would want even if it did further his plan. To me, the entry fits more under Broken Base, which I did make an entry for this topic.
But, what do you guys think? Do you think this is an Ass Pull?
Edited by Ramona122003 Hide / Show Replies
Agreed. Calling that an Asspull is just plain nitpicking brought on by fans who were disappointed by the Bittersweet Ending of the arc.
I can understand why it'd be considered an Ass Pull, since the universe fusing thing was never even remotely implied before. Yes, I agree pseudo-immortality would have resulted in something special, but there are a lot of things that could have been done to show that. Fusing with the universe is so random, and almost borderline reality warping.
Though I agree that Zamasu "not blowing himself up from the start" wasn't an Ass Pull. Zamasu had no way of knowing that would happen, and didn't have an understanding of his powers. Black openly admitted he didn't know what the hell he was doing anymore.
Edited by Snowy66
Thing is, how can you foreshadow something like that? Future and Merged Zamasu are the first official immortalities in the series if you don't count Garlic Jr.
I don't mean it had to be foreshadowed, but they could have done something on a slightly lesser scale. Immortality isn't a new concept in Dragon Ball, but never has immortality been associated with "universe fusing". They haven't even explained what the hell it was Zamasu did. Was that his soul fusing with the universe, or did his body take on a non-physical form, or what? And is Zamasu the only immortal capable of that? Can non-gods in his same position do that too?
It'd be less of an Ass Pull if they provided some sort of explanation at least.
Edited by Snowy66
Gowasu explained it as Zamasu's shredding his godly form, so it was his soul. It's also impossible to say if other immortals are capable since there are no other immortals in Dragon Ball. Until Zamasu, immortality in Dragon Ball has been just a theory.
Basically, Trunks destroyed his physical body, but since his soul was still immortal, he became a spirit that merged with the multiverse. Keep in mind, souls are not immortal in Dragon Ball.
... okay, and? You're offering an explanation that not only came after the fact but also still doesn't necessarily logically follow.
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That isn't me offering an explanation. That's exactly what the show told us when the event happened. Zamasu's physically body was destroyed, but he fused with the universe because he's immortal. Also, what logic to immortality?
Not liking the explanation isn't an Ass Pull.
No, but the explanation having zero foreshadowing and the plot point coming out of nowhere is. Which you're not even trying to claim isn't the case.
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And I asked, what could have used as a foreshadowing other than Zamau being an immortal since no other being in the entire series is one except Garlic Jr.
As I said, this is more of a Base Breaker than an Ass Pull.
I would honestly say that the way Zamasu survived is foreshadowed while him merging with the universe is the Ass Pull part. I think that the example should be rewritten.
The reason I say it was an Ass Pull is two-fold.
First, as noted earlier, Gowasu says that Zamasu is "Trying to merge with the universe." and shows no surprise to this. Implying he knew Zamasu could do such a thing the whole time. And if Gowasu knew Zamasu could do it, then it stands to reason that Zamasu would ALSO know he could do it. Which again raises the question of why he didn't just do it from the start? Especially since "Becoming justice and truth itself" is exactly what Zamasu WANTED. So him not immediately doing so when he knew about it makes zero sense.
Second, the point about him being immortal is a good one.
Except that in the last episode it was explicitly stated that Zamasu was no-longer immortal now that he had fused with the mortal Goku Black (A kind of "Get the weaknesses along with the strengths deal") but suddenly in THIS episode, he's all of a sudden immortal again. I think Ass Pull covers eleventh hour retcons, does it not?
Now, I am hearing some decent arguments for why it's not an Ass Pull, and some decent arguments for why it is. But then again, the same could likely be said for EVERY Ass Pull listed (For instance, I have reasons why I do not consider Trunks's new form to be an Ass Pull). Isn't that the point of YMMV? Tropes that DON'T have a clear cut answer and can be seen in multiple ways? Some see it as an Ass Pull, some don't. It's up to the reader to decide if they're mileage is the same as the trope writers. Otherwise we only get one person's opinion and I feel that defeats the purpose.
Also, I feel the statement that "I'm just bitter because I didn't like the ending" is unfair and rude. You're degrading and discrediting my statements by trying to make a judgement on my character without even knowing me. I do not appreciate that.
Everyone was surprised, so I am not sure where you're getting that from. There was also no hints that Zamasu knew he could do this. Zamasu only did it because his physical body got destroyed becoming the universe was his last play. He lost his consciousness and became an Almighty Idiot, which is something he definitely didn't want since he wanted to enjoy the fruits of his 'paradise'.
That wasn't what was said. Specifically, they said Merged Zamasu was half-immortal, not that he completely lost his immortality. That was why only half of his body was melting.
The Ass Pulls like Super Trunks is there because not only did get Trunks get a powerful new form that was on par with a god form, it came out of nowhere and we never got an explanation. It was boom and there. There are theories on what the form is, but the show gave us nothing. We don't even know if it uses god ki.
The same thing with the Spirit Bomb sword. Where did the Spirit Bomb come from and how did Trunks' unconsciously formed it, never explained. I disagree with Vegito being an Ass Pull since Vegito randomly defused in Z with no real explanation and Super gave a reason. I just decided to leave it be.
The reason why I don't see Merged Zamasu fusing with the universe as an Ass Pull is because the show did give an explanation as to why it happened, even if it was a little weird and out there. The only thing lacking was foreshadowing, which doesn't seem possible since no one in the series had immorality except Garlic Jr and no one seemed to know how immorality worked. Trunks thought he could destroy Future Zamasu by self-destructing on him, thinking that there much be a limit to his regeneration.
In terms of Zamasu not knowing about it, I again refer you to the fact that Gowasu knew about it. How could Gowasu know about this power and Zamasu NOT know about it? That makes no sense.
As for "Only half immortal"
https://youtu.be/TSWEFrSKpUw?t=1m21s
https://youtu.be/1_9zPVncREQ?t=3m50s
Now, you could say that Gowasu meant that only his BODY was mortal.Going off your "Half-immortal" statement.
EXCEPT.
https://youtu.be/kCLtggJzcrQ?t=7s
Gowasu encourages them to try and destroy Zamasu's physical body. But the next episode shows that he knew Zamasu could just merge with the universe (Since he acts as Mr. Exposition in that scene without a hint of surprise) So why would he instruct them to kill Zamasu's body if he knew it would only make Zamasu stronger? It makes no sense.
Which also answers the question of how they could have foreshadowed it.
- Supreme Kai: Of course! Now that Zamasu is fused with Goku Black, he's not immortal anymore! We can beat him!(*Gowasu shakes his head sadly*)Gowasu: I'm sorry, no. Even if his body is now mortal, his spirit will still remain. And without a host to contain it, it would spread throughout the universe until it has consumed all in it's path.Goku: So... we really can't win?Gowasu: I'm afraid not.
As for the Almighty Idiot argument, it's a good point.
Except when we look at Zamasu's character. It has been stated over and over again that he wanted to wipe out mortals and become the enforcer of justice. So for him to not want to wipe out mortals and LITERALLY become Justice is out of character for him. Especially since we've ALREADY seen that he's willing to sacrifice himself for his zealotry (Like taking on the body of a hated mortal at the cost of his own godly form. A great sacrifice for such a narcissistic character. and at that point in the series (The point of merging, he was DESPERATE to kill those pesky mortals)
And I think that's the difference between this Ass Pull and the others. While things like SSJR are unexplained, you can very easily headcanon an explanation that makes reasonable sense. With Zamasu's spirit form, every explanation just raises another Plot Hole.
"He didn't know about it!"
"Then how did Gowasu know about it?"
"He was only half-immortal!"
"Then why was Gowasu saying he could be killed?"
"He didn't want to do it?"
"The man with a literal God Complex who was obsessed with becoming justice didn't want to LITERALLY become justice?"
Edited by Giantleviathan
An Ass Pull is just some BS that the writers come up with last second to make some otherwise extremely unlikely outcome happen. It's usually to do with lack of foreshadowing, or it could be unexplained gaining of superpowers/skills.
The more I read this thread, the more I'm convinced it's an Ass Pull. Gowasu should have at least hinted there was some kind of danger to destroying Merged Zamasu's body. But absolutely nothing was given. Plot twist or not, they made it look like the heroes beat Zamasu, only for that Zamasu essence consuming the universe coming out of nowhere.
Edited by Snowy66
I agree it counts as an Ass Pull for Merged Zamasu to fuse with the Multiverse. Thing is, there was zero foreshadowing to Merged Zamasu being able to do any of that - there's no connection between the destruction of his body and what kind of powers his immortal soul could have had. I don't agree that he should have just done it at the start though, because again there's no reason to assume it would happen if Merged Zamasu destroyed his own body. The write-up for it should exclude that last sentence.
Edited by VeryMelon
Since when does Unintentionally Unsympathetic need a secondary link, no other examples have it on the page.
Zamasu confirmed Complete Monster via Cleanup Thread
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cookieman, forgive me if I have to delete your entry but you don't have the right to add a CM entry unless you specifically show it to the CM thread. Leave that to either username2527, the one who propose the candidate or ACW, the one who edits the CM entries.
For now, I will comment it out and someone can take the entry to the thread. I did some modifications on it.
I added it to the YMMV page already (it can be edited/commented out if it's too early to put him in), but I'm thinking that Goku Black is definitely a candidate for a Complete Monster
Goku Black, one of the main antagonists of the Future Trunks arc, qualifies. He's a cold-blooded murderer whom in his first action, murders Future Bulma right in front of Future Trunks. Then when Future Mai defends Future Trunks, he seemingly murders her and gloats about it to Future Trunks. In the future, he's feared throughout, even traumatizing Future Trunks into thinking Goku was Black (although Future Trunks assumed that Goku didn't want to go back to life). He doesn't show any regrets, and even enjoys pain. Earth was just his most recent stop, as he has destroyed countless worlds beforehand. Even though Black claims to be wiping out mortals for the sake of justice, he is just basically another Zamasu with evil intentions. Oh, him killing Chi-Chi and Goten just For the Evulz and gloating about it to Goku sinks Black in that category as well.
However, I'm not too sure if Zamasu himself qualifies yet (he's getting there though). Any discussion on the two is welcome.
Edited by cookieman Hide / Show Replies
Considering Zamasu is Black, i'm pretty sure he counts by proxy. He is a Knight Templar full of hypocrisy, and any attempt of showing his good side has been left out of the window. Also, in his twisted mind, killing mortals for the sake of god's justice, also must include the gods themselves, killing them without a thought.
Edited by Tomodachi To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
He may have started as a Knight Templar, but it's apparent that after his Sanity Slippage he largely kills for the fun of it. Him using his Knight Templar status as a justification for his evil just makes it worse. There's also the fact he will never stop until all life in the multiverse was eradicated, even Frieza and Buu didn't go that far.
He's a massive hypocrite who wants to kill all mortals due to believing they're evil and inferior to the gods he believes to be perfect,but has also killed several Kais because they objected to his omnicidal plans,he's a monster.
I AM YOUR KING!!!!
Zamasu's arc is over now,he can be added,someone should do that.
Edited by Thad I AM YOUR KING!!!!
You need approval from the Complete Monster forum and they won't look at Zamasu for another week.
It is, which is why there is a special thread for Complete Monster and you can't just add people willy-nilly.
See, that kind of talk is precisely why we need a threat to determine whether a character is a CM or not.
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Okay, so.
- What Measure Is a Non-Badass?: Dragon Ball fans are really guilty of this trope. If a character is not the strongest or near the top tier, they're written off as worthless.
- Gohan gets hit by this the most since he experienced Badass Decay that took him for being the strongest unfused character at the end of the Buu Saga to being far below Goku, Vegeta, a newly revived Frieza, Beerus, Whis, and later Future Trunks. However, Gohan is still by far the strongest character outside of those characters and was more powerful than Frieza's strongest Elite Mook and Dragon, even with the loss of his Ultimate power. His lack of spotlight since the Resurrection 'F' Saga hasn't helped anything.
- Piccolo. Some fans are upset that he has been lagging behind the power scale since the end of the Cell Games. He is still one of the strongest characters in the show, but fans see him as wasted since he can't fight the Big Bad and gets The Worf Effect if he fights The Dragon. Piccolo refusing to train with Goku and Vegeta in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber during the Champa Saga, saying that he can't keep out with them, has also rubbed many the wrong way. Eventually, Piccolo does manages to catch up somewhat during the Universal tournament, but he still exists to highlight how being Weak, but Skilled is not a bad thing and having a proper grasp of battle tactics is important.
- All the fighters from U6 except Hit and to a lesser extent Magetta get this from some fans. They are called 'weak' because only Magetta could challenge a regular Super Saiyan and only Hit is up to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan level, forgetting that Goku and Vegeta are literally Physical Gods even in their base forms. All the fighters from U6, except for maybe Botamo, are stronger than everyone else from the main cast since Frost is stronger than Frieza after he trained outside of his ultimate transformation and Frieza in his first form shot holes through Super Saiyan Gohan, who was nearly comparable to Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan. Even Kyabe who lacked a Super Saiyan form before Vegeta showed him how to do it is likewise many times stronger than Gohan (since he's equal to Vegeta's base form). So it isn't that the fighters from U6 are weak, it's just that Goku and Vegeta have become freakishly powerful. Some of this is starting to fade away after fans saw how well Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks performed against Copy-Vegeta (who was as strong as base form Vegeta).
- It is safe to say any character who fails to push Goku or Vegeta into using their Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms fall into this. Most of this is because the fandom completely underestimates how powerful Goku and Vegeta have become, specifically in their base forms. Some either insist that Goku and Vegeta have what is known as the two base theory (which is Goku and Vegeta having a non-god base energy form that makes them only as powerful as they were before they trained under Whis and that they can power-up with god energy to make their base forms stronger), or that their base forms are only as powerful as Perfect Cell or one of the Buu forms, nevermind that it is said in the show that Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his being. The same Super Saiyan God that put up a fight against Beerus.
- Even Goku Black fell into this. After his first fight with Goku when he was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku (although it was clear that Black was holding back and had a case of Worf Had the Flu), some fans dismissed him as overrated and wasn't a suitable threat. That is until Black got stronger, enough to take hits from Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta in his base form, and revealed his Super Saiyan Rosé form. From there, he promptly takes out Vegeta and Goku with help from Future Zamasu. For those who thought it was was a fluke and Black just took Vegeta and Goku by surprise, he did it again in their third fight. Even after getting his butt handed to him by Vegeta during their fourth fight, fans were shocked when Black improved yet again, ripping a hole in dimensions, and created endlessly clones strong enough to hurt Goku and Vegeta. By the time he fuses with Future Zamasu he remained undefeated.
First off, most of these feel like a shoehorn. It's not so much the characters are disliked for not being badass as it is "the characters get subjected to They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character because they're not powerful enough to really affect the plot".
Moreover, the entries are pretty clearly taking the side of "... and anyone who thinks that is wrong." Which coupled with the freakish walls of text tell me that even if they do apply, they need to be severely trimmed.
The only ones that really seem to fit the "this character is disliked or mocked for their weakness" is the U6 fighters, but even most of that entry is just talking about how they're not actually weak. But all of the entries don't read as talking about the trope so much as trying to disprove it and say everyone who believes it is wrong, dammit.
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Well, Gohan definitely fits since people call him a wasted character since he isn't as strong as he used to be.
Piccolo is also called a waste because he can't fight most of the villain in the show, not even The Dragon. It's actually kind of treated as a Running Gag that Goku doesn't take Piccolo seriously.
U6 got lambasted for not being as strong as many hoped.
Black was original mocked because of his poor first performance against Goku. It wasn't until they went to the future and Black kicked their asses that fans changed their minds.
So I think they all fit. But if you feel like a rewrite is in order, that's fine.
So for the first two, you're saying that they get called a waste... but that's not the trope. That was the purpose of my first point. That doesn't sound like they're the subject of derision so much as lost potential, which even the work basically seems to agree with.
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Gohan is a subject a lot of derision along with Piccolo. It's to the point of parody among the fandom like saying Gohan is weaker than Yamcha.
I'm very confused here, isn't the purpose of the trope to discuss why people feel this way on certain characters? While I don't necessarily like the trope itself, I still think this trope still has relevance since it discusses Gohan & Piccolo lack of strength despite still being otherwise very powerful characters.
The trope is about characters being mocked for being weak, regardless if that is the case or not. Gohan is strong, but since he went through Badass Decay and he is seen as the 'Saiyan Yamcha'. Who, along with the rest of the human cast, fit this trope, but that's another topic.
Okay, if they are the subject of derision then they can be included... my issue is that the entry didn't even make that claim, and instead just ranted about how they're not weak.
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Look, can we finally settle on wether we call the transformation Super Saiyan Blue or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? I know both are technicaly correct terms, but we have to be consistent. I quite frankly believe any and all Super pages should use Super Saiyan Blue, since that is the term used within the Series itself and the promotional manga, which serves as the primary promotion of the series. By that same token, the Xenoverse pages, for example, should still use SSGSS since that is the term used in the games. And finally, "Super Saiyan God Blue" is just plain incorrect.
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I don't think consistent is that important since people freely used Funi and Viz spellings like Frieza vs. Freeza. Also, are you really going to police the Dragon Ball pages to make sure the 'proper' term is used in each sectionsince several have call it Super Saiyan Blue on the Xenoverse pages. How about characters pages not related to neither Super or Xenoverse?
Are all the "[thing] happened in Dragon Ball Super: [fan group 1] thinks this but [fan group 2] thinks that! But [fan group 3] actually came up with THIS" entries really necessary? This has got to be one of the most cluttered pages on TV Tropes ever.
In other words: are YMMV pages really supposed to reflect every single thought expressed on fan forums?
(At least there's no "I'm not making this up" or "So yeah" anymore these days.)
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I do kind of agree, though I've seen some other more cluttered pages. Some entries give way too much information about everything when they could be just summed up in a shorter paragraph. However, I'm not the most experienced user of this website so I'm not sure if that's a good idea.
For the last couple of days, Unintentionally Unsympathetic has been edited back and forward. It was somewhat agreed on ATT that Future Mai fits, but the question here is if Kid Mai falls under Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
The main problem with Kid Mai is that she is never presented as sympathetic. Her flirting with kid Trunks happened in one scene in Super and she drops him for Future Trunks. The one-sided romantic is completely played for laughs and kid Mai is never shown to be sympathetic. She actually presented to be kind of on the pathetic side. It is kid Trunks on the losing end since he's trying get Mai's attention and she won't give him the time of day.
Cut this:
- Ass Pull: Frost being Evil All Along is seen as this by many, due both to coming out of nowhere, but also because it removes most people's reason for him being an Ensemble Dark Horse. Others don't mind and find it being a good plot twist that did have very subtle bits of foreshadowing, and Toriyama is well known for subverting expectations.
For a few reasons. Firstly, if it's foreshadowed, it's not an Ass Pull. Asspulls have to come from nowhere. If there's foreshadowing, then it doesn't really count.
Note that I mistakenly said in my pull reason that Ass Pull has to resolve a plot thread... it doesn't, I was thinking Deus ex Machina. But my first point remains. If there's brilliant foreshadowing, it shouldn't be an Ass Pull.
Discuss.
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Giving Author's Saving Throw its own page. I think it should get its own page, because of how long it is.
Just a some guy.