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Muphrid
topic
08:24:20 AM Mar 28th 2012
Bury Your Gays has to do with gays being killed off; why is it being presented here like it has to do with no gays being present at all?
Iaculus
10:22:44 AM Mar 28th 2012
Yeah, that's a pretty clear trope misuse. Pulling.
Mirime
topic
01:26:39 PM Feb 1st 2012
For the part of "Exactly What It Says On The Tin" couldn't that be applied to every single spring in Jusenkyou? I mean, you can't really get any more succint than "Spring of Drowned Panda" and "Spring of Drowned Girl" that is part of the reason of the series' craziness in the first place.
Severen
topic
05:28:30 PM Jan 1st 2012
Cut this line from Abusive Parents:

  • Also the one and only time Kasumi has gotten angry was to chew out Genma for taking Ranma to Jusenkyo.

Considering that this happened in the very first chapter, before Kasumi's character was fully developed, it can be dismissed as Early Installment Weirdness. This is pretty much confirmed when, in later chapters, after both Genma and several others commit even worse acts, she doesn't even bat an eye.
Tyoria
topic
01:04:21 AM Nov 19th 2011
What characters in this series are not hypocritical at one point or another, seriously? Especially if we're apparently defining the word as, loosely, any character who's ever been irrational or unfair. It's the Dysfunction Junction for a reason. They're all screwed up and they can all be hypocritical jerks.
whisp
topic
07:56:29 AM Jun 10th 2011
To Toggle, in the YMMV tab:

Are you antvasima, by any chance? This is the exact same topic, and the exact same arguments, for the Nabiki edit war that went on last year. The YMMV tab is not carte blanche to force your own (or your "local translation's") interpretations, especially not in an inflammatory manner. The edits I and others have been doing have preserved your intent with a much more balanced tone, but you keep reverting them to your own view. We can have the Misaimed Fandom entry since people see characters in a different way, and that's perfectly fine (the Alternative Character Interpretation trope exists for a reason, after all) but a YMMV by definition needs to allow the possibility that, indeed, Your Mileage May Vary. As you've written it, the entry expresses a single vehement opinion and by your own justifications in your edits you won't allow room for argument.

I'll fix them again, but at the same time I ask the rest of the tropers to weigh in on this before it becomes another edit war.

And as far as the Ranma and Ryoga expies are concerned, you're STILL reaching a LOT. The "hot-headed, brash hotshot martial artist" archetype is unique to neither Ranma nor Ken, so it's really not a good argument for deeming one an expy of the other. Ryoga and Ryu are completely different in personality, methods, and general outlook of life, ESPECIALLY where Ryoga's depression and Ryu's Dark Hadou are concerned. Finally, the Ken-Ryu dynamic is fundamentally opposite to Ranma-Ryoga, where the former are extremely loyal friends who love to spar with each other for mutual improvement, and the latter barely tolerate each other as friends and fight constantly to humiliate and crush the other's spirit. Square Peg Round Trope is in full effect here.
tanvas
topic
03:28:19 PM Feb 12th 2011
edited by tanvas
Just a few notes:

Ranma and Ryoga are more mixed versions of antiheroes. They have elements of type I, II, and III to them.

Shampoo and Mousse have no heroic inclinations whatsoever... well, the latter definitely does whenever Shampoo is in danger, but not othervise. Beyond them the only Ranma characters with heroic aspirations that I can think of are probably Akane, Hinako (Both of whom should also be mentioned. Hinako is probably a mix of types I and II, whereas Akane is a mix of types I, II, and III) and maybe Kumon Ryu, Tofu, Konatsu, or Soun. The rest simply mind their own business, although Kuno at least thinks that he is one.

Shampoo, Pink, and particularly Nabiki, are perfectly willing to commit horrible deeds while being perfectly cheerful, or even deliberately friendly or othervise deceptive about it. Hence, Evilly Affable. Definitely at least of the same level as Taro.
CrypticMirror
topic
03:50:39 AM Oct 8th 2010
copy of removed items due to changes in wiki policy, or Natter reduction.
  • Chaotic Neutral: Most of the main characters swing all over the Character Alignment scale, from moments of Chaotic Good to moments of Neutral Evil to moments that are pure Chaotic Neutral; calling them Chaotic Neutral works more as an "average" alignment (particularly for the group as a whole) than anything else, especially if one isn't differentiating between the anime and the manga. Characters who are more evil in one continuity might be portrayed as more good in the other (for example, Shampoo is predominantly Neutral Evil in the manga, but the anime version is predominantly Chaotic Neutral) and vice-versa. However, the degrees and frequencies of these tendencies shift wildly between them. For the few characters who don't have such a moral ambiguity... and even they have debates going on:
    • Kasumi Tendo: Neutral Good. She likes making her family happy and is the one responsible for looking after them — cooking, cleaning, she does the majority of the tasks around the household — and if making them happy means letting them run wild, she's content to sit back and watch them enjoy themselves with a smile on her face. A very cynical Alternative Character Interpretation, though, would be to consider her a sweet-natured Type 2/10/12 True Neutral. Some fans have also looked at her little jokes from the early parts of the series (like giving Akane a hammer in the Hypnotic Mushrooms arc and encouraging her to ward off Ranma with it) and speculated she may be a subtle form of Chaotic Good, who truly does like her family, but also likes the chaos that can ensue when the pot is stirred.
    • Nabiki Tendo: Anywhere from Lawful Evil to Chaotic Evil, with a few True Neutral moments wherein she doesn't mind helping her family with minor everyday tasks. Her intelligence, acerbic wit, mercenary traits, extreme talent for manipulation and play-acting, and willingness to work either within (investments, information-brokering, merchandise) or outside (life-threatening chaos-mongering, blackmail, swindling, theft, or even selling people for profit) the system to gain greater wealth, makes her more apparent as an 'average' of Neutral Evil. However, one does not have to be Stupid Evil to be Chaotic Evil, and others would argue that her constant arrangement of trouble, total lack of concern for anyone besides herself, and doing it all simply for fun and (usually) pocket money (threatening to expose Ranma's identity to Nodoka unless he bribed her for 500 yen equates to blackmailing, via threat of death, somebody for roughly $5), places her pretty firmly on the Chaotic side of the equation. In the anime her "worst" moments were either toned down or didn't have the time to be featured, and she showed occasional concern for her family's well-being, or gave some advise, so here she could be interpreted as a Type 5 True Neutral.
    • Happosai: Chaotic Evil. Happosai generally behaves like a self-centered, extremely attention-craving nuisance, and appears to have very limited morals or scruples. Although despite his immense power, he usually sticks to groping and peeping on women, obnoxious pranks, and stealing food or lingerie. However, when motivated this Dirty Old Man can also do stuff like contemplate murdering a baby that he thinks will become an even greater Panty Thief then himself, or cripple his heir and announce this fact to all of his potentially deadly rivals. He can also be seen as a Type 5 True Neutral: In the anime he drops the manga trait of being a Card-Carrying Villain and does occasional good deeds, like trying to genuinely reform himself, or tend to what he believes to be a sick, poor woman. In the manga, he has been shown to have a soft spot for little children, such as lending them toys, making the sickly Hinako healthy, or trying to do good deeds for them, but is also fully willing to use them as accomplices in his thefts.
    • Saffron, Taro, and Herb: Neutral Evil. Thoroughly ruthless, egotistic, conceited, and sadistic "big villain" characters for the protagonists to square off against. Each also has some quality that keeps them from appearing Chaotic Evil; Saffron's goal is to ascend to his full power so as to provide heat and light for his subjects, Taro is willing to save/protect random women, and Herb appears to possess some ability for gratitude.
  • Characterization Marches On: Rumiko Takahashi herself stated in an interview that she originally intended Ranma to be "a clean-cut, nice boy with frank disposition", but that he kept surprising her and "turned out to be an indecisive, stubborn, sly guy." Some fans would make a case for Nabiki, due to her apparent excitement of a possible cute well-travelled fiancé (and boys in general) in the first episode/chapter. She even wore a kimono to meet Ranma (in the anime, not the manga). However, from her interactions with Kuno in the immediately following chapters it is clear that she is profiting from and encouraging the harassment of her little sister, and her later spotlight chapters make clear that she is perfectly willing to blackmail boys with a crush on her dry of money, swindle kindergarten kids, ruin her family, frame Ranma for rape, sell him/her to Kodachi or as a casino slave, continuously sadistically lie to and manipulate anyone, casually send a rival to his death, or cause the destruction of the Saotome house for sheer entertainment value. Large numbers of fan theories have been argued over amongst fans in attempt to explain this perceived dichotomy, ranging from: "Nabiki is really in love with Ranma, but feels she can't steal him away from Akane, and so has become cold and bitter as a defensive measure" to "Nabiki sees how badly love is turning out for Akane with her engagement to Ranma and has concluded that love isn't worth it." to "Nabiki had a secret crush on Kuno that embarrassed her — then Ranma's appearance revealed that his perversion and idiocy has beyond even what Nabiki had thought possible — and so she has turned on all boys and love in general", or that she "genuinely wants a real boyfriend, but loses interest quickly and falls back on her money-grubbing ways". Others would argue that she is intended as an exaggerated parody of certain less savory amoral and hedonistic aspects of modern liberated social traits, whereas her opposite Kasumi is an exaggeration of traditional values, female co-dependence, and perceived serene perfection. Rumiko herself has consistently drawn Nabiki as a devil and Kasumi as an angel.
  • Author Tract: Not really a lot of them, as Takahashi is a very creative and diverse, either drama-, or purely entertainment-driven artist, although by comparing the creativity of more episodic stories such Urusei Yatsura, Ranma, or Maison Ikkoku, with long spanning arcs in Inuyasha, she also seems much more talented when sticking to the first mentioned approach. The self-stated ongoing message of her works is "be kind to others", which fits with that what ultimately makes her main characters likable is their compassion, and the cast is frequently very quirky, with a comment that she "finds perfect characters boring", so accepting most of them despite that signals a tone of general tolerance. However, Takahashi really doesn't seem to like irresponsible financial swindlers, and loves to poke fun at them. Nabiki is portrayed as a genuinely evil, and much more competent, version of "My Super Sweet Sixteen"-style "materialism gone horribly wrong", whereas Sabato is played closer to the root, and may be even more extreme.
    • Nabiki in particular, since she's the most extreme makeover, and it involves virtually every single fanfiction story she's been prominently featured in.
    • Unless you buy into an alternate character interpretation (And they do exist) Kasumi is pretty much pure as the wind driven snow. She also has about that much character.
  • Covert Pervert: Akane and Ukyo have both had at least one of these moments each in the manga.
    • Some fans think that Ryoga is one, because, despite the consistent extreme flustered shyness from even thinking of holding hands with a pretty girl, he willingly accepts Akane's believing him to be her ordinary pig, even if he does make sure to avoid looking at her when she's undressed (cynics note that Ryoga's tendency to nosebleed at the slightest hint of female flesh paints an ignoble possibility as to why he does so). This facade results in being hugged to her bosom and allowed to sleep in her bed, with even the fact that this results in him getting beaten up by her violent sleeping movements failing to dissuade him. Ryoga states that sleeping allows him to protect Akane, but Ranma is repeatedly skeptical of Ryoga's motives and openly suggests a far more lecherous reason behind his antics. During the "Hot Springs Obstacle Course Race" Ryoga protests about Mousse wishing to peek on the girls, and briefly thinks about it himself, but then reconsiders and tries to stop Mousse again, although in attempting to do so he still ends up by the edge of the pool — although, given how hypocritical everyone is in this series, he may have protested at first simply because he wanted to look good, and then been claiming he was going to stop Mousse so that, if they were caught, he would still look/sound good to the girls.
      • The anime seems to lean in on the supportive side of the debate; after the end of the Martial Arts Rhythmic Gymnastics arc, whereas the manga ends with Kodachi simply declaring she will give up her passion for Ranma, then declares she now burns with new passion, the anime ends with a scene in which Ranma and Ryoga talk in the bathtub, and upon hearing Akane calling for P-chan, Ryoga tells Ranma he's "gotta go" and splashes himself before heading for Akane's bedroom... although both versions have Ranma end up meeting Kodachi as a guy because Ryoga deliberately jumped into the pond to become P-chan to go to bed with Akane, much to Ranma's displeasure. The anime equivalent of the hot-springs scene, in the episode "The Mixed-Bath Horror", also makes it clear that Ryoga's protests against peeping on Akane and effort to stop him are token at best.
    • During the sleeping incense filler chapter, Akane has a dream where Ranma comes to her as a Knight in Shining Armor and saves her from Kodachi, Shampoo and Ukyo... then pushes her to the floor to start having sex. Akane's reaction is to lightly tap Ranma (both in the dream and on the head) and tell him not to be quite so forward, though she seems fairly amused/eager in her dream — despite the fact she is vehemently opposed to "perversion" when awake.
    • Ukyo, meanwhile, eagerly stares at a photo of a naked Ranma that Genma is showing her and begs him to move his finger, the only thing obscuring her view of his genitals, in the manga, despite getting flustered when romance is brought up and tending to blush, stammer or, if sufficiently conflicted emotionally (say, by Ranma asking if she loves him while she's calling him out on his plans to propose to Shampoo), slap Ranma.
whitetigah
topic
03:52:00 PM Mar 21st 2010
Am I the only one who sees the title as broken? I currently see it as "Ranma ½", and I wanted to know if it's a problem on my side or if it's really displayed that way.
CrypticMirror
03:54:05 PM Mar 21st 2010
I'm getting it here too browser is Firefox 3.6
Tyoria
04:41:48 PM Mar 21st 2010
Here too, also Firefox.
CrypticMirror
04:49:08 PM Mar 21st 2010
Tried it on Safari and same thing. I'll leave trying it with Internet Explorer to someone else.
whitetigah
03:37:20 AM Mar 22nd 2010
So I guess it's a general thing (I'm on Opera over here). I'll take this to the forums.
Tyoria
topic
08:56:38 PM Mar 18th 2010
edited by antvasima
Tyoria: antvasima ...

(Regarding the "Bitch In Sheep's Clothing entry...)

"reason: Shampoo makes no pretenses about her murderous nature, but is manipulative, and generally acts upbeat and affectionate (which at least is enough for many fans to somehow not notice), whereas Kodachi is always openly psycho."

That there are fans who gloss over Shampoo's... shall we say, less attractive character traits... is quite true, but I don't see how that makes her a Bitch In Sheep's Clothing in series canon. I mean, there aren't many characters who don't attract some level of Fan Dumb. Word of God calls her "Innocent and Aggressive," which I think goes against that implication of intentional deceitfulness. Kodachi, meanwhile, definitely puts on airs of being The Ojou — it's just that nobody buys it, and she can switch gears into open psychosis in the space of a few milliseconds.

I don't feel very strongly over the characters, (neither of them are my favorites but they aren't my least favorites either) but I do think that's reasonable. Would you be willing to compromise (like include either both or neither) or put it up for a vote or something?

antvasima: Well, it's not really anything beyond being strongly anal-retentive for me either (beyond the cases when I seem to preceive some very unsavory attitude in the real-world type of persons who harbours a certain view). As for Shampoo, the thing isn't that she personally sees any conflict between being happy-go-lucky and a casual assassin (in fact someone without a trace of conscience will usually more easily turn happy than one burdened with it), or makes any excuses about being a warrior amazon. It's that for an onlooker it's usually very hard to associate the general image of a bubbly, voluptous, cuddly, romantic, and affectionate teenage girl quite at peace with herself, with a manipulative, bullying, brainwashing, conceited, sadistic, casual assassin, rather than someone like Mihoshi.

And then there is the additional footnote that she really does manipulate Ranma or use subterfuge when convenient (instant Jusenkyo powder story, first Taro story, first Hinako arc, the Pink&Link chapters). The "innocent & aggressive" comes from the German memorial book reprint. I don't know if it's from Takahashi herself, but I see it more as a short&sweet of that seeming dichotomy.

Still, I suppose that it's debatable whether she should be included or not, so I'll remove it unless someone else thinks it's better to keep it. I thought it was simply about generally looking harmless enough, but really being ruthless and dangerous. Kodachi is definitely a worse fit though, since she always looks completely unhinged.
Tyoria
04:39:39 PM Mar 21st 2010
Tyoria: Really? I hadn't known the dubious nature of that quote's origin. That's almost disappointing. Yeah, I didn't see you as having a character-based agenda here, I just wanted to make it clear I wasn't trying to "defend" or "attack" anyone either, when to be perfectly honest there ARE a few fan attitudes that rub me the wrong way.

My take on the BiSC is that it's a character who cultivates an entire personality that is in contrast to their true nature, and usually it's done consciously for the sake of gaining an advantage over people — much like Obfuscating Stupidity. Shampoo can be deceptive on occasion, but it's not that her overall personality is a lie, it's that it's only one ASPECT of that personality. Her bubbly attitude isn't an attempt to misrepresent herself, she acts that way even when she's alone. The trope I think comes closest to that is Affable Evilness, although I guess I should call it Affable Ruthlessness. The other issue is that she's introduced to the cast as a violent determinator out to murder Ranma, so thus it was actually the NICE side of her that was the surprise discovery. Granted, that was so long ago many people probably forgot about it.

Kodachi I thought came across as more deliberate in her attempts to be perceived as The Ojou, even if that doesn't do much if anything to alter the perception of her as a total loon. Then again she really does think of herself as one so maybe she's not trying to be misleading or seeing it as a contradiction.

Anyway thanks for your consideration and response.
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