Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

lanky: Removed Anime Anatomy. Neither the manga nor the anime go out of their way to obscure those details through lack of definition.
Adam850: This is minor, but when discussing things Ranma did, what pronoun do you use? "In the Ranma 1/2 manga and one of the OV As, there is a form of martial arts called the Martial Arts Tea Ceremony, conducted entirely from seiza. Ranma requires a ribbon tied around her ankles to stay that way for the entire fight." There the character was a girl. An odd form of Pronoun Trouble. So does one refer to what they physically are, or what they normally are?

Sikon: Use artificial gender-neutral pronouns. That, or "they". ^_^

Looney Toons: This is a problem which has faced Ranma Fan Fic authors for over 15 years. Most simply use the appropriate pronoun for the body he's using and trust to reader familiarity and context clues to handle any confusion; some try more idiosyncratic uses, which more often than not (in my opinion) end causing more confusion. In Japanese it's not usually an issue, as a lot of pronouns are gender-neutral. In the English dub, oddly enough, it rarely comes up, but IIRC — which I may not — it depends on the character doing the talking. Genma and Akane seem to always call Ranma "he"; Kasumi uses the appropriate pronoun for the current body, as does Nabiki, but Nabiki's snarkier about it. I can't recall off the top of my head how the others are written.
Cassius335: So what was The Sudden Kiss turned into, if anything?

Adam850: Sounds like Slap-Slap-Kiss, but I'm not sure.
Adam850: Copied old discussion.
Kawa: Bridget Drop line was actually "It's fine by me if he stays a girl" according to my scans.
Looney Toons: St Fan, I just saw your recent "Standardization" changes. Can you point me at the page or discussion where these standards were established, so I can adhere to them when writing future pages?

Lanky: Agreed, clarification would be nice. This article just got ten times harder to Ctrl+F, too. That's not a standard character and the Viz translation does not use it. In fact, I'm going to do a find/replace now.
  • Lanky: Alright, so I did the find/replace. Viz Media agrees with me. It'd be one thing if the "ō" character was a standard keyboard character, but it's not. Even if Viz Media didn't agree with me, it does bad things to functionality by actively hindering searches.
  • Lanky: On a related note, I've put in an entry for Spell My Name with an "S". The great "ou" vs "o" debate alone makes it necessary.

Nate The Great: Could someone folderize the It Just Bugs Me!? It's starting to get a little unweildy. Perhaps folders for Curses/Transformations, Martial Arts, Characterizations, etc.

Do we really need the Moral Event Horizon trope here? Or, for that matter, the few Complete Monster potholes here and there? These are silly characters in a comedy series; the worst they do is indulge in Comedic Sociopathy. Moral Event Horizon means that the character is irredeemable, beyond forgiveness in the audience's eyes; as for Complete Monster, are we really comparing immature, selfish teenagers with the likes of Johan? Alternative Character Interpretation is all well and good, but seeing (and seeking) psychological darkness in a lighthearted comedy with martial arts  * and romantic entanglements would put everyone's actions under this light. And since there are literally hundreds of examples where everyone does something that in real life would be morally reprehensible and abhorrent, nobody in the series (except Kasumi) would come out unscathed. Whoever added Cerebus Fandom hit the nail on the head.

whisp: @antvasima: Your Mileage May Vary and Alternative Character Interpretation aren't "manipulative," they allow for different opinions and let fans express separate views on the same events (on the other hand, spreading misinformation about "Triad sex-slaves" (factually wrong) and "pleasure girls" (mistranslation) is manipulative because it misrepresents the series to readers who aren't familiar with it.) In any case, you're blowing the event out of proportion. It's a two-panel joke that is over and forgotten by the next panel, it has no consequences for anyone (well, except Kinnosuke, because he's the one who was stuck with the casino bill at the end,) the characters never dwell on it, the author handles it as a quick gag, and even the narrative gives it less importance than any of the other stuff in the same story arc. Akane was horrified, yes, but at the casino bill, not at Ranma being sold off, and her horror lasted for all of one panel. Ranma himself was more exasperated than anything. Going by the trope description, Moral Event Horizon is meant for events with severe repercussions for the character crossing it, the character's victims, and the plot as a whole. You're defining an entire character using a throwaway joke, buried in two panels of the tenth chapter of the 29th volume of a 38-volume series, even though the joke had no such repercussions .

Fiendish: I agree completely. In fact the trope page specifically defines the Moral Event Horizon with Once a character crosses the horizon, they cannot be made admirable or sympathetic without again altering the moral tone of the story. It has to be inherently known and recognized as an evil act, either by the way it is presented or by the characters calling them out on it. Since most if not all the characters listed remain sympathetic or at least funny after their supposed horizon-crossing, I really don't think it applies.

antvasima: Regarding Nabiki, this was part of an entire pattern of events which were of exactly the same nature, and her other spotlight chapters were also in exactly the same vein. It really is impossible to work that character into someone non-thoroughly evil, so yes Draco in Leather Pants attempts from fans or not, she very much crossed it with these entire chapters. Shampoo is also part of a consistent line of behaviour, but on the other hand she was introduced as perfectly willing to casually cut down anyone in the Tendo family who stood in her way for hunting Ranma, so it's not like it was pointing anything new out, so I can see how she doesn't apply. Kodachi throwing Kuno to her alligator was also more of a throwaway joke, but still in pattern. What you overlook or go to extremes to ignore is that these occurrences still happened. It's not remotely a "Ehehehe that guy doesn't get that it was supposed to be funny" situation. I thought they were funny, but casual cheerful assassination attempts are no less serious as such than dark and moody ones, more so in fact. "Dumb" or "humourless" has nothing to do with it. So yes, Nabiki still stands as all of her spotlight chapters were intended to showcase her as a genuine monster. Whether people are used to the nicer anime version, go by previous fanfiction clichés, can't handle the original (the usual cases), or in some instances seem to resemble the original but to want to excuse it, is another matter entirely, but at least it's good to know the foundations.

Cryptic Mirror: I'd like to take a moment to defend Nabiki here. Lets take an honest look at our snarky moneylender. We're talking about someone who sells some mildly risque pictures of her sister to the village idiot who has more money than sense, and then when two rather unpleasant and creepy freeloading house guests turn up, she sells some more (to the same village idiot) of the unabashed exhibitionist (anyone that walks around topless with their boobs hanging out has no business complaining about risque pics) . While it isn't exactly praiseworthy, it's hardly anything more than a little distasteful. Especially since either Ranma or Akane could easily stop her through threat of physical force if they ever stopped putting Honor Before Reason or even started using their brians a little. Sure Nabiki also teases and embarrasses Ranma, but again this is more playing to his over-inflated macho ego and his rather strained sense of honour. Does she really love money, well yes, as a girl that is growing up in a really poor household in Japan (one of the most status conscious places) in the world it's hardly surprising. Is she going too far in her pursuit of it, yes, but the same could be said of Ranma&co's fanatical pursuit of martial arts, actually everyone in this series is going too far in pursuit of something. Soun and Genma's pursuit of the joining of the schools, Kasumi's pursuit of domestic harmony, Cologne et al's pursuit of Ranma. Compared to the lengths they go to Nabiki barely registers.

Now the big two. Nabiki pimping out Ranma when she briefly became his fiancée. To us Ranma is the Designated Hero, it's his (well his and her's) name on the show title. To Nabiki, he is the unwanted houseguest that mocks her family (and is rude to her multiple times), destroys her home on a daily basis, leads a parade of freaks into her life that not only brings the daily property damage, but also the risk of serious injury as part of collateral damage and drains the family coffers meaning what little money they do have is spent on that and lowers their already poor standard of living. Now if I were living with that, that person would consider themselves lucky if all I was doing was pimping them out a little.

Nabiki selling Ranma to the chinese mafia during the yen challenge arc. Leaving aside the previously stated perfectly reasonable reasons for Nabiki not really caring about Ranma. This was Nabiki's story of her getting to have the same wacky adventure as Ranma, Akane, Ryouga et all have every single other issue. This was her "martial arts and crafts challenge", and she does nothing worse than Ranma has done, after all Ranma once lost their Dojo in a card game without having a reasonable claim on it (leading to them becoming homeless as their idiot father tried to get it back). During the course of Ranma's challenges he's put the entire Tendo family's lives in danger several times over. So even if you don't accept Rule of Funny and Comedic Sociopathy as covering her actions, then it is still cover by the same level of insanity as the rest of the cast. The letting the challenger fall to his painful landing is again covered by the same law of wacky challenge insurance that comes as standard in the Ranma-verse, Ranma has inflicted similar levels of pain on his challengers.

Is Nabiki a pleasant person to hang out with? Possibly not, are any of the Ranma characters people who wouldn't drive you to insanity after spending five minutes with them? Well maybe Dr Tofu, which is probably why he was Put on a Bus

Three Headed Dog: That the Tendo's are poor is fanon or possibly anime canon but there is nothing in the manga indicating that they are poor and a lot indicating that they are not. First they have a large amount of land (for Tokyo) which is expensive. Second Akane and Ranma have virtually unlimited wardrobes often can be seen wearing things like kimono's which cost upwards of a thousand dollars. Third they can afford to go out to eat often (for example the arc with Kasumi mad) and call for take-out fairly often (to the point that they know the name of the delivery person). Fourth they can afford to go on multiple trips through out Japan. Fifth: The only time they had a money problem was when Nabiki was wagering millions during that bet.

Also that the Soatomes free load is also pretty much fanon since Ranma can be seen cleaning (like at the beginning of the arc in which Nabiki became his fiance), making repairs (like fixing the roof when Taro broke it), helping around the house, running errands (like going with Akane for the New years shopping) and takes up challenges to the dojo. Genma has a job (that he ever stopped working it is unknown) and could easily be giving some money to Soun to help with expenses.

I'd also like to point out that the characters i.e. Ranma and Akane viewed Nabiki's actions as terrible and Ranma has not inflicted similar amounts of pain on his opponents (he never even hospitalized any of them, the sole exception would be Saffron whom he had no choice).

I also want to point out that this statement: "During the course of Ranma's challenges he's put the entire Tendo family's lives in danger several times over." is untrue. Ranma's challengers did not endanger the Tendos (except occasionally Akane but that was only because the Tendo's chose to keep the engagement had they dropped it she would not have been in danger). Most of Ranma's challenges were because of a Tendo or limited to only Ranma not endangering others. Kodachi - was because he took Akane's place, Mikado again challenge was started because of Akane running to Ranma asking for help, Taro - was Happosai fault, Happosai was Soun and Genma's fault, Tea ceremony - did not ever endanger a tendo, Ukyo - no danger to the Tendo's, Ryoga was not a danger to the Tendo's, Orachi was because of Akane, Ryu was Genma's fault and was not a danger to the Tendo's, Shampoo was only a minor danger to Akane not the other Tendos, Mousse no danger to the Tendo's, etc. point being Ranma's challengers did not put the entire Tendo families lives in danger frequently.

What examples are there of Kasumi's fanatically pursuit of domestic harmony? That's almost entirely fanon. Kasumi has done things like call Shampoo and given Akane a mallet which are clearly counter to domestic harmony.

St Fan: What's this nonsense about Happôsai being The Scrappy? And "many fans"? Bullshit. Never heard of it before. Happy is my favorite character, in IMO one of the biggest source of laughs.

Tyoria: I think he's hilarious too. But I could see people having that reaction to him. I have definitely seen people react to Kodachi in that way (not wanting to watch episode she's in at all).

On the other hand, it's Ranma. Almost every character is someone's scrappy and someone's ensemble darkhorse. I don't think there's a large enough consensus to single him out in that capacity. I'd be fine with taking it out.

St Fan: Exactly. Any consensus within Ranma fans is very hard to find anyway. There are haters for about any character, and other who are ready to start flame wars defending them.

The only character, I think, which is badly viewed in general is Sasuke Sarugakure, because he's not from canon and a bit too caricatural for the series.