I didn't put the the thing up but I am the one who fixed it when you deleted it as I did see enough ship tease to support it. as I said this game doesn't go into enough detail because the only reason we know some of the characters like the other is from a single throw away line but considering some one put this up longer than I could look into the history for and it always showed you I figured it could remain.
Sorry that last part made no sense typing on phone what I was trying to say was you were the only one who repeatedly took it down so considering ship tease can change from view to view yours got overruled
Ship Tease isn't open to interpretation, it's intentional. Otherwise, it's either the fan(s) misinterpreting what they see, or misconstruing it to conform with what they want to see.
There isn't a single instance that implies Elma thinks of Rook as anything more than a subordinate.
Edited by MiinU
Ok most cases ship tease varies and has different views, hince why we have shipping wars and what you started edit wars. Now in my opinion I don't give a damn either way but the fact is one person put the trope up and another even added to it and out of many people who saw it you were the only one with a problem. So it seems your the one with a different opinion ( considering your Irina edit not surprising) but from what I saw in the game I guess there was ship tease so...
I have nothing against anyone shipping them, if that's what you're implying. The problem I have with it is, it's misleading.
If someone were to ask for an instance of ship tease between them, what could anyone present as evidence?
In most cases, ship tease is easy to point out because the writers make it obvious - whether by having other characters lampshade it, or simply reacting to it (i.e. Shipper on Deck, Leave the Two Lovebirds Alone, etc.) Or if the writer's being subtle about it, they'll hint at it as strongly as possible so the audience can infer the rest for themselves.
Case in point: such as with Noa and Asuma in Patlabor and Yuuka and Takaki
in Maken-ki!.
Um you're telling me the Elma person was not deliberate. Now in most cases your right with character development ship tease can be easy to tell, but this game lacks that like I said before a single throw away line or moment is all we have to go on other examples such as Hope, Doug and others but there are moments. And I wasn't saying you are against shipping so much as your view may be the one misreading it such as you did in your Irina edit.
No, I'm saying they didn't present any evidence of Elma being tsundere towards Rook. The instance they referred to was not a sign of attraction, she was offended at being thought of as a pet.
Hence, why I said they're reading more into it than what was actually there.
I made more than one in her case, including the Ace Pilot entry, so you're gonna have to be more specific.
Edited by MiinU
First of all you do know Tsundere is not always romantic right and falls hand in hand sometimes with people with tough love. Second there not reading into it more than that's there if the line is there and there are moments of ship tease. Third I was referring to the one of single women seeks good man.
...which is what I'm asking about. What moments are they interpretating as ship tease?
I'm currently on my third playthrough and I don't recall a single moment of ship tease concerning Elma.
That...? Single Woman Seeks Good Man is about a female actively hoping for, or seeking romance. Irina isn't looking to hook up with anyone, unless it's Elma and even that's debatable.
There's a female npc in Deliverance Park who even tells you about all the guys that want to get with her, except she isn't interested. And her first heart-to-heart has her griping that male BLADE members treat the females like eye candy; excluding Gwin.
Saying she'd invite (male) Rook out for a drink (on its own) doesn't imply romantic interest. Especially considering she goes out drinking with Murderess at the end of her 2nd affinity mission ("My Dream") - and Irina can't stand her guts.
Frye invites Rook to go drinking with him, too. Twice even. Except it has nothing to do with romance, regardless of Rook's gender. Frye just wants a drinking buddy.
And prior to that, Doug also gives Rook an invite for helping him, at the conclusion of his "Close Comrades" affinity mission.
You seeing my point now?
Edited by MiinU
I'm not about to replay and look for it but you could argue some of the heart to hearts are ship tease or the mere fact that you can say you're an Elma person is deliberate ship tease but my point is multiple other people put this in there but you're the only one with a problem with this. Also who the hell said Doug likes Rook.
Not unless it's taken out of context, which is basically how I figured it was being misconstrued. In context: Elma asks, which sort of pet do you prefer: cats or dogs?
Saying you're an Elma person in that light isn't ship tease. It's one of the game's comical dialog options, except Elma isn't amused at being thought of as a pet. She even replies:
"The last I checked, I wasn't a pet. So why would you say something like that?"
No one did. The point was that a lot of people invite Rook out to drinknote , but each of those instances is platonic. Irina will even go out drinking with Murderess, of all people.
It'd be different if she flirted with Rook, or said something to the effect of possibly making an exception in his case. But all we get is one line that may not necessarily mean anything.
That's why I kept deleting the single woman seeks good man and Bi The Way entries in her section, because there isn't enough to support either of them.
As far as her interests are concerned, the most that can be said is she's Ambiguously Gaynote .
Edited by MiinU
You say that but here I see may other tropes indicating Irina does have romantic context with rook from multiple sources, does it boil down to nothing more than ship tease and some of it is debatable in my opinion yes but I can also say much of it is definitely not platonic and anyone who says as much is lying to them selves. Ultimately what I figure it comes down to is a jpg with a purely asthetic gender protagonist and that was how the put romantic moments or ship tease moments into it like many others have done, but even I can say I could see it.
Such as...?
Really dude look at other tropes on the page I'm not listing them and they are by various people but the highlights are Irina with Rook, Hope with Rook , Doug and Hope and rook and Elma. You may not agree with all of them ( I don't) but like I said ship tease and many seem to agree.
I've read through Irina's section and it harps on the same point three times: she invites Rook out for a drink.
So do Frye and several others. Yet, no one's claiming Frye or any of the others are crushing on Rook because of it.
And since when does Hope have a thing for Rook? If it's her post-fight banter with Gwin, all she says is she's having "love troubles". She never says with whom.
It seems your not looking at the context for example the reason Irina's can be considered romantic is because her conversations are about not liking men and not wanting to go out with them because the were jerks or perverts so it can be as such when she does ask rook out for a drink, while Frye was a drinking buddy. I believe the issue is your looking for a solid I love you and in a game with a purely asthetic gender your not gonna see that.
That's reading a lot into it, without anything to support it.
Using the same reasoning, you'd argue Takaki (who also doesn't like men) had a romantic interest in Takeru, simply because she went to a private hotspring with him and Usui. Except in context: the trip was setup to introduce them to the rest of the Maken-ki. Meaning, it was strictly business.
That's why context is important. Without it, we can't really say whether Irina's offer is meant to be a romantic gesture, or if she's just inviting a friend to go drinking with her.
No, what I'm looking for is something more than: 'she invited him out for a drink' which is being interpreted as 'so she must have a thing for him'. Despite the fact she's gone drinking with other BLADE members without any romantic interest.
Edited by MiinU
It's not really looking into when I a casual gamer can play the game last year and say yes I saw that and to agree with others compared to you who is looking way to much into to it. In my opinion I think this game lacked character development and why single lines and events are all the other editors seemed to have to conect for example, the fact the fact hope likes rook because she confides to Gwin about it. Your not really gonna find anything solid in this game because either the game sucked at it or it's all they could get away with purely asthetic gender protagonists, either way the reason I fixed the trope you took down is as I said you were the only one who didn't agree to it which left you the odd view out ( now here I am caught up in it on the way to a entirely different trope page ).
So your argument boils down to: 'who needs context? So long as 2 or more guys agree on it, that's all that matters'.
A group of people can agree that Takaki secretly has a thing for Takeru then. They'd still be wrong.
context is a good thing to have but if there is little in character development it's hard to come buy, and looking at the history some people explained their reasoning so it's. Not like they're pulling it out their ass. It's also true that a group of people agreeing on something doesn't make it true, however when only one disagrees they tend to be in the wrong.
They are, if they've got nothing else to go on. That's why I originally said it (and the tsundere entry in Elma's section) seems like wishful thinking.
Edited by MiinU
All I'm seeing here is Shipping Goggles. Like, hardcore shipping goggles.
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Like I said I thought so to but after looking at some of the reasoning in the history and at people's reasoning and looking at he game I could understand it. I couldn't find the explanation for the Elma in the history but I did see it seemed to come from different people and Tsundere wouldn't be out of character for someone with tough love.
I agree that the Tsundere entry for Elma is shoehorning and Shipping Goggles.
I disagree with Miin U's argument that Irina asking Rook out for a drink has no implications, especially if it's only male Rook that gets that invite. Japan has a strong taboo about actually being forward about romantic interest. And no, the fact that the characters are American means nothing. The game was still made in Japan and the characters behave very Japanese-like.
And the context provided by the invitation leads me to believe there's at least a hint of romantic interest. Again, though, the Elma thing is just flat out shipping goggles.
Edited by KingZeal
@KingZeal: Then how do you explain Irina going out for a drink with the nameless male grunt, who we're told has a crush on her?
If we're using 'she invited him out for a drink' as justification, then wouldn't the same apply to the grunt? Though, if we're being honest, I'd still say 'we don't know, 'cuz we don't have enough to go on'.
Yet, Gwin's "Boot Camp" affinity mission beats you over the head with his unrequited crush on Irina.
- The female npc in the Interceptor hangar tells you about the grunt that's also crushing on Irina.
- Mia openly flirts with Doug during their post-fight banter.
- Doug tries flirting with Hope during theirs, but can't get the words out.
- And Lara Nara, Erio, and Lavvi, all take turns hitting on Rook, regardless of Rook's gender.
Not to mention, how anime and manga in general have characters either openly expressing how they feel for one another, or showing clear signs of attraction. And the game is heavily anime inspired.
Edited by MiinU
That's at least three other guys. So if we're using the 'she invited him out for a drink' as justification, then wouldn't the same apply to the grunt? Though, if we're being honest, I'd still say 'we don't know, 'cuz we don't have enough to go on'.
Going out drinking with people is not the same as asking someone out FOR a drink. ESPECIALLY since this (supposedly) only happens with male Rook.
- The female npc in the Interceptor hangar tells you about the grunt that's also crushing on Irina.
- Mia openly flirts with Doug during their post-fight banter.
- Doug tries flirting with Hope during theirs, but can't get the words out.
And your bullet points only prove my point further. Lots and lots of hinting or roundabout flirting, but very little forwardness.
Subversion or aversions don't mean a trope doesn't exist. Also, Crush Blush and being clingy and jealous has jack to do with The "I Love You" Stigma.
Edited by KingZeal
The only difference I'm seeing is: in one instance (the grunt), we at least know there's an attraction along with the invite. In Irina's case (inviting Rook), we've got nothing.
It means as little as the analogy I used where Takaki went with Takeru to a private hoptspring. Because, in context, the trip was for school business.
So Lara Nara inviting Rook up to his room after hours, while laying on the innuendo THICK, wasn't him being forward? Especially given Rook's choice of responses usually amounts to: 'not happening'.
Lavvi outright tells Rook that she and Erio are both in love with him/her during "the Definian Love" side mission, and says she isn't giving up on Rook.
Alexa's second affinity mission reveals Mika is in love with Camber. By the end of Alexa's third affinity mission, Mika finally tells him (offscreen) and they hook up.
And since when is flirting not being forward? Because it's a clear sign of attraction.
Edited by MiinU
... I really don't get how The "I Love You" Stigma even remotely applies here or to Japanese media in particular. I was just kinda overlooking that sinkhole.
I think the biggest indicator here is if that scene only occurs with make Rook. If that's the case, then I would consider that a valid Ship Tease.
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His attraction, not hers. Do we even know if she knew about it?
And if she DID, maybe she was giving the guy a shot and he failed.
Either way, who cares?
Again, only happens with male Rook. That's a deliberate difference.
This example is meaningless here. I don't know why you keep insisting on it.
Lara Nara is a blatant All Gays are Promiscuous stereotype. Doesn't count.
Layva and Erio are blatant Transgender Fetishization stereotypes. Don't count.
Offscreen. And AFTER apparently a long time of Cannot Spit It Out. Again, proving the point.
Because "flirting" has lots of levels of blatancy, from dropping a handkerchief, to inviting someone in for "Hot Coffee". But all of it is designed to be indirect or use euphemisms. And in Mia's case, it was on the very subtle end of the scale. My opinion is that Irina asking male Rook out for a drink is the very, VERY subtle end of the scale.
The trope, as written, doesn't apply here. I was merely making a comment on Japanese culture in general. Remember that how we write a trope and how the trope is used OUTSIDE of this site are not always the same thing.
Edited by KingZeal
Yeah, except how that gets used on the site is almost entirely the same as how the site uses it.
Like, I know what you're saying, but that's just an entirely random trope to sinkhole.
Overall agreeing with you. Ship Tease is basically trope-decaying into "Heterosexual Ho Yay" and I'm against that so I see what Miin U is doing and laud it, but I think in this (second) case there might be a legit example.
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Agreed.
Also, point noted about the Sink Hole, and I apologize for it.
Exactly, because we don't have enough context to answer it either way. All we know is she accepted the invite.
...and Gwin and Macus.
She's gone out drinking with them too and in the military (as well with as local PD) it's a long-standing tradition that the commanding officer makes the invite, because it's on the CO's dime. And they're her subordinates.
So we know she has a history of hitting the bar with other guys before Rook. But we also know it doesn't mean she's interested. She's treating them out after a successful mission.
Because Takaki is analogous to Irina.
- Both prefer the company of other women, because neither one likes men, albeit for different reasons.
- One is a confirmed lesbian, the other's sexual orientation is ambiguous.
- Yet both 'went out' a guy, regardless.
- Further, a hotspring is a far more intimate setting than simply going to a bar, because it means stripping down.
So... if we were to apply your reasoning to both situations, you'd argue that Takaki must have an attraction to Takeru, simply because he's the only guy she's gone to a hotspring with. But in context, anyone who's familiar with Maken-ki! would know that isn't the case, because we were told (and shown) what the purpose of the trip was.
In Irina's case, all we know is she made the invite. Does she regard him the same as Gwin and Marcus, or as just a new drinking buddy, is it something more? That's what's missing and what you're trying to do is fill in the blank without anything that supports what you're suggesting.
And how do Lara Nara and the others "not count" simply because they play up different stereotypes?
You said there wasn't any forwardness, they prove otherwise.
Edited by MiinU
Which makes it irrelevant. We don't know if it was innocent or flirtatious.
She's gone out drinking wit them too and in the military (as well with as local PD) it's a long-standing tradition that the commanding officer makes the invite, because it's on the CO's dime. And they're her subordinates.
So we know she has a history of hitting the bar with other guys before Rook. But we also know it doesn't mean she's interested. She's treating them out after a successful mission.
You're comparing apples and oranges. Gwin and Marcus are co-workers (she doesn't know about Gwin's crush), so going out drinking with them is team bonding. On the other hand, she ONLY asks a male Rook. If she also asked a female Rook, I wouldn't be making this argument. But the fact that it's only male Rook implies that it's not just a team bonding thing, otherwise female Rook would get asked too.
No, she isn't. Completely different work by completely different writers. And that's all I'll say about this from here on.
You said there wasn't any forwardness, they prove otherwise.
Because the entire point to those stereotypes is that they are blatantly sexualized. They don't prove jack.
My point exactly, since the same can be said of her inviting Rook.
...and so is Rook, since he's with BLADE.
Yes she is. Regardless of their respective works/writers the two are still comparable. And drawing comparisons between similar situations is how we identify if/when certain tropes are in play.
They prove you were wrong about no one being forward with their attraction.
Edited by MiinU
No it can't, because she ONLY invites male Rook, and not female Rook.
The only thing they prove is that they're stereotypes. If you don't see the difference, then I don't know what to tell you.
Since we seem at an impasse, I'm willing to just call this a 3-to-1 outvoting in favor of Ship Tease between Irina and male Rook.
Edited by KingZeal
... in fairness, I should at most get half a vote. I haven't played the game yet and am going solely by your descriptions.
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Which is beside the point, because she's also invited Gwin and Marcus, who're also male.
All it tells me is, you're trying to change goalposts to suit your argument.
You've gone from: 'no one's forward with their attraction' to: 'only counts if they're not stereotypical'. I'm calling bullocks on that one.
First: how do you know who invited who? Second: completely misses the point that female Rook is NOT invited.
You've gone from: 'no one's forward with their attraction' to: 'only counts if they're not stereotypical'. I'm calling bullocks on that one.
I do not know how to explain to you that the stereotype is ABOUT them being forward about sex and/or sexuality, and at this point I'm not going to bother.
You're still out-voted 2.5-to-1 here.
And as I pointed out to Dragon95, just because a group of people agree on something (regardless of number) doesn't mean they're right.
Like how the rest of the world once thought the Earth was flat, 'til one guy decided to prove it wasn't.
Edited by MiinU
Appropriately, even that's false information.
It was well known that the Earth was round by Columbus's time (since I'm assuming that whom you're talking about), and he was the one that was wrong because he thought the Earth was smaller than it was while everyone else was correct about its size.
Edited by KingZeal
Which doesn't change the fact that the majority can still be wrong.
... the fact the majority can be wrong doesn't mean the minority is right, though. You know that, right?
In this case, there (seems to) be a pretty concrete difference between Ship Tease or not. The female Rook path is basically our control. We know there's no Ship Tease elements to it.
Asking someone out for a drink does not necessarily have romantic undertones. I actually agree wholeheartedly on that one. However, what changes things is if the female path doesn't have that scene, and the male path adds it in, it can be presumed that it does have romantic undertones.
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Wow I wake up and find Columbus in the the discussion, totally didn't see that coming. To clear up something above Irina didn't go out to drink with the nameless grunt another npc( I think Marcus ) was hoping she would, she probably didn't.
Um...that Larkmarn summed up my position on the matter very succinctly.
Dragon: Two arrows in a discussion or forum post means he's responding to two posts above him. Since the discussion threads don't have arrow icons, "^" is what we use. If he had used one arrow, he'd be responding to your post.
Get it?
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Yes, but seems that the same isn't being considered of the position you and KingZeal are taking.
Female Rook gets invited to go drinking with Irina (and Murderess) at the end of the "My Dream" affinity mission. Moreover, the game doesn't give an option to refuse. It's either:
- Rook offers to pay.
- Rook accepts on the condition that Murderess pays.
- Or she suggests they split the tab.
So if that's all it takes to convince you it's ship tease, female Rook gets it to. But I'm sure you see why it isn't ship tease.
Try talking to the female npc standing in front of Irina (post chapter 10 or so), she tells you the guy finally worked up the nerve and Irina went with him.
Edited by MiinU
Female npc I was only aware of Marcus standing near Irina and he said he hopes she goes.
It seems I remembered wrong. I just checked my save file. The female npc is still there, but you can't talk to her. So it had to be Marcus who tells you about the grunt.
Unfortunately, Marcus dies during chapter 8 and my save file is post chapter 12. So I can't confirm whether he says Irina accepted without starting a new game.
Edited by MiinU
That makes more sense. But remember the conversation she probably didn't.
^Well, she can't if he never asked her. I remember it being said the guy was too intimidated by her.
The Rook and Murderess thing is, again, irrelevant to Female Rook not being invited during the Heart-to-Heart.
That does nothing to change Larkmarn's statement that our "Control situation" is a Female Rook that is NOT invited during the Heart-to-Heart. Other examples of Irina going out for drinks is irrelevant. The Heart-to-Heart is specifically about "guys are creeps when they ask women out for drinks—except you, heck I'd ask you out myself" and ONLY male Rook gets that offer.
You are trying to make a false equivalence argument (ie., this thing is always this thing and context means nothing), which doesn't work. If this is the scene you're talking about, the context isn't even REMOTELY the same.
And actually, now that I've read the entire converstaion, Irina was SPECIFICALLY talking about asking Rook out for drinks in the context of dating, because the entire point was that he agreed with her that another guy who'd asked her out, and then asked out several OTHER women, was a sleazeball.
Edited by KingZeal
...you're still on about this.
Irina says she'd invite him out, but does she? I'm pretty sure she was speaking hypothetically, rather than literally, considering she never actually does. The heart-to-heart simply ends.
So the original point stands that you're reading more into it than what's actually there. That's hardly ship tease.
Yes, I'm still on about this.
Oh and how about that? So are you.
Hypothetically or not, it's a Ship Tease, because it is STILL a deliberate act of bringing up the idea of the two hooking up.
The damn description flat out states: "If the writers are particularly impish, they'll tease a relationship that either never comes up..."
That's what makes it Ship Tease and not an actual goddamn romance.
Edited by KingZeal
First of all, calm down.
Second, inviting someone out for a drink doesn't = hooking up. Otherwise, Doug would be an item with Lin, since he invites her along after his "Close Comrades" affinity mission. But we know Doug doesn't think of Lin that way.
The most we can take from that is, Irina likes (male) Rook enough that she doesn't mind his company. Anything beyond that is speculation, not ship tease.
Edited by MiinU
Don't remark that I'm "still on about this" and then tell ME to calm down. It's extremely hypocritical.
More false equivalence. As I already said, those are two DIFFERENT contexts. In the Heart-to-Heart, Irina was specifically talking about asking someone out for a date. In the others, dating flat out wasn't mentioned.
Edited by KingZeal
I'm not the one getting worked over this, you are. All I did was ask a question. There's nothing "hypocritical " about that.
Which, again, is hypothetically speaking since it never actually happens.
Also, ship tease is reciprocal. It doesn't work if it's only one-sided, 'cuz then there isn't any chance of it happening. So even if Irina were serious about wanting to go out with male Rook, most of Rook's responses about love and dating amounts to: 'not interested'.
You want an example of ship tease, try Ryoga and Ukyo from Ranma ½. It was unintentional, but wound up being so thick that Rumiko tried to shoot it down.
That's precisely the kind of thing that isn't a ship tease then. Ship Tease is by definition intentional.
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@Larkmarn: True. The reason I brought that instance up is because it still looks that way even in hindsight. And there were more scenes than that one.
Whereas wth Irina and Rook, we've got nothing.
Edited by MiinU
"...You're still on about this." Is not a question. And even if it WAS, why would you ask it?
Which the definition of Ship Tease FLAT OUT SAYS is a valid example, as I already stated above.
Where is that written in the definition?
Rook is a Silent Protagonist, and doesn't say anything that the player themselves don't choose. In this case, you have to SPECIFICALLY choose an answer which will please Irina so that she "hypothetically" says you're the type of guy she'd ask out. And only if you're male.
Rook doesn't show any interest or disinterest beyond that, which is specifically what makes this a Ship Tease. As Dragon said earlier, you seem to only think it counts if they start dating. You keep bring up examples that are irrelevant here, because BLATANT examples of the trope do not discredit SUBTLE ones.
Edited by KingZeal
Because there wasn't any response after the comment I made on the 29th. So I assumed we had reached an impasse and thought the conversation was dead.
So I checked one more time, to make certain, and saw that it wasn't. Hence, the question.
In order for ship tease to work, there has to be some chance of the ship actually sailing. That's the part you're not getting.
I'm not saying Irina has to hook up with him, but there needs to be more than a hypothetical statement that never goes anywhere.
...and I never said it did.
I'm arguing whether this can even be considered "subtle" given there's no sort of follow up on it. She made one comment. That's as far as it went.
Edited by MiinU
Someone can take a day off of a debate. Also, I specifically took time to check the scenes you posted before responding again.
You would think that my response was answer enough, so that doesn't answer why you ask if I'm "still on about this".
I'm not saying Irina has to hook up with him, but there needs to be more than a hypothetical statement that never goes anywhere.
The description never says this. It flat out says that a ship that goes nowhere can be hinted.
Which is irrelevant, because teases without follow-up are specifically stated as a valid example in the description.
...and you're still missing the point: a hypothetical statement on its own is not ship tease.
And at this point, you're just repeating the same statements over and over.
Barring outside intervention which swings the vote, or changed opinions from either Larkmarn or Dragon 95, I'm ready to call this in favor of you being outvoted.
@KingZeal: Being outvoted won't change the facts, but I'm done with this either way.
I'm not sure who keeps adding the Tsundere entry in Elma's section, but it honestly seems like reaching, or wishful thinking. She never shows any signs of attraction to Rook, subtext or otherwise.
The incident being used as justification simply has Elma ask Rook what sort of pet he/she prefers. If you chose to respond that you're "an Elma person," she becomes mildly offended and asks why Rook would say such a thing. That isn't a tsundere reaction, it's a justified one, because it's insulting to tell someone you think of them as a pet.
One of Lin's heart-to-hearts allows Rook to say he thinks of her as a pet too, which she also takes offense to. But I doubt anyone's gonna say she's crushing on Rook because of it.
Edited by MiinU Hide / Show Replies