During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Hmm...I'll get around to doing proposals for Abelt Dessler, Kain and Scorpius soonish
Goku Black
Alright here the examples from other shonen of the so called Big Three,since One Piece got brought up.
Ill start with Bleach first and do Naruto next.
- Magnificent Bastard;
- Sosuke Aizen. The man had the entire governing body of the Soul Society slaughtered and replaced by him and his henchman without anyone noticing, then manipulated everyone with ease in a great, long-running Gambit Roulette to steal the Hogyoku trapped in Rukia's soul, take over the Hollow world, create a new army of soul-eating supersoldiers, and then take over... pretty much everything else. He had backup plan upon backup plan, faked his own death, nearly stabbed to death his fiercely-loyal lieutenant (who remained fiercely loyal afterwards, convinced that he was being manipulated himself), and plans to obliterate Ichigo's hometown to fuel his ambitions. And oh yeah, when he turns evil he can slick his hair back sans gel or styling mousse. How do we know that his hairstyle isn't just another one of Kyoka Suigetsu's illusions? Sit down and think about THAT.
- As of 453 there's Tsukishima. Who has managed to insert himself in Ichigo's life, brainwash everyone else into thinking they know him from years ago, and taunt Ichigo with it.
- The Vandenreich Leader of the final arc is looking to be this, as he decided to take over Soul Society after dominating Hueco Mundo a moment after one of his scouts stated that five days that they would attack. He has taken the Soul Society off-guard and has so far made it certain that he intends to keep anyone that could disrupt his plans out of the fight and has so far has not been pushed into a corner. And the time he seems to be pushed into a corner? That's NOT him, but his Master of Disguise subordinate. Magnificent. And then he kills said subordinate... Bastard.
Im not really familair with this like say Naruto, so some thoughts ?
edited 14th May '18 7:44:23 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Aizen was a Villain Sue who lost most of his competency and cool points after the end of his first arc and just relied on New Powers as the Plot Demands. He's just a larger example of the Ribbons' problem, where one solid first appearance cements him in the audience mind as cool, even though later appearances totally undermine it.
Tsukishyma uses mind control powers to get what he wants, not interpersonal skills, and he's a Smug Snake in person.
I'm not overly familiar with the final arc, but Ywhach is listed as CM.
Cut the Bleach examples they don't count.
I agree with Ambar that the only MCU villain I can see potentially counting is Zemo the rest should be cut
Cut Ribbons, Regene and Tassilo Vargo
Regarding the quotes, given what others have said about the quotes not being able to fully explain all the facets of the trope, should the entire page be cut?
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
& Done and thanks for the advice on removing the Gundam and bleach examples. Though I respectively disagree and believe that at least a few of the tv /Netflix MCU baddies have a shot, so it wont just be Zemo.
Here's the freaking Wall of Text at Naruto:
- Magnificent Bastard: Obito Uchiha. While Madara was the one who started the Moon-Eye Plan and imparted Obito with the knowledge needed to implement the plan so that he could be resurrected in the future and become a Physical God, Obito in turn decides to use this for his own interests to become a Physical God himself and never had any intention of reviving him. So from the time of Madara's death practically everything was directed by Obito. This includes the manipulation of Nagato and Sasuke, reforming the peace organization Akatsuki into an organization consisting of dangerous criminals, leading this very organization from behind the scenes, and as a bonus he infiltrated his own organization pretending to be and convincing many people that he was silly, goofy Tobi without particular reason except fun. He also managed to deceive the whole world making everyone who met him believe that he was the "true" Madara Uchiha, and pretty much goads the entire world into a war against himself. When his plans start to slowly fall apart because of unforeseen circumstances, he shows very good skills in Xanatos Speed Chess. So when Kabuto put him at a disadvantage threatening to bring back Madara to life and forced him into an unstable alliance, he uses the army Kabuto to his own advantage for the battle with the Alliance and gathering the tools in which to sealed two resurrected shinobi owning Nine-Tails chakra as a fallback in case if he will not be able to catch the remaining Tailed Beasts and to resurrect the Ten-Tails in any case. And even returned from the dead Madara was not able to stop him since he outsmarts him, using Kakashi in order to remove the seal established on his heart and becoming the first man from the time of the Sage of the Six Paths to seal in himself the Ten-Tails and become Physical God.
edited 14th May '18 8:07:28 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Obito's entire motivation revolves around him not getting laid when he was fourteen. He's a fundamentally pathetic character, no matter what words the mangaka put in Naruto's mouth about him being the "coolest guy ever." There's nothing to be impressed with, nothing to admire there, and while I know this isn't that important, I feel like we'd be sending the exact wrong message to some of the world's worst people if we called him "Magnificent."
Trying to mind wipe the world because one girl died before you could get her to go out with you is not exactly the actions of a criminal prodigy.
edited 14th May '18 8:32:18 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Goku Black
But He was The coolest Guy''. Yeah I agree that by jove his motivation is awful even For the Evulz would have been better than what they went with
Also stupid question did 43110 remember to put these entries on the respective ymmv pages of the works. Because Pegasus isnt on yu gi oh despite being approved.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
No, I did not, I'll get on that now.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
We could but if someone is "tooth and nail" enough to readd them, just use Ask The Tropers and have a mod revert it.
edited 14th May '18 10:40:49 AM by 43110
If we’re agreed on the MCU entries, can one of you cut them since I was the one who originally cut the Fury and Coulson entries and I don’t want to be accused of edit warring.
Yeah I think the only one last who qualify as a MCU is Zemo and the Vulture
Goku Black
Im wondering if it weren't too much trouble for you. Could you do Vulture's EP. Im currently doing Zemo's, so I wont be able to get to that one for a bit.
Sigh...Burn that.
edited 14th May '18 11:51:18 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Potential cuts from YMMV.Kill La Kill
- Magnificent Bastard: The tactical genius of the Kiryuin family is rivaled only by their adaptability.
Kiryuin Satsuki is a Well-Intentioned Extremist who eventually sides with the heroes. Her character page points out that her attempt at being a Stealth Mentor backfired.
Kiryuin Ragyo on the other hand is a depraved monster whose crimes against her own daughters include unethical experimentations, physical and emotional abuse, repeated attempted murder, Mind Control, Mind Rape, actual rape and torture. Ah and her endgoal is planetary genocide. If you look past that, well, her outfits and her rainbow hair are perhaps magnificient.
Goku Black
Another cut from Cross Ange
- Magnificent Bastard: Embryo. In just one episode, he manages to win the loyalty of Chris and Ersha by reviving her and the child Ersha was grieving over respectively, and almost tempted Ange to join him till Tusk intervened. Also, he proves that he was using Julio all along and casually kills him.
Yeah uh Hard No. Embryo is an Omnicidal Maniac , lover of Mind Rape and well actual rape. So this entry should be burned.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Effortpost ahoy.
What's the work?
Legacy of Kain is a terrific, underrated videogame series. A dark fantasy taking place in the world of Nosgoth, a land falling into decay, governed by 9 pillars that control reality...problem is? The guardian of the Balance pillar was murdered, and her death drove her lover insane. He corrupted the others, and they've decayed ever since, ruining the world with them. Years later,a petty noble named Kain is waylaid by bandits and murdered, resurrected as a vampire by the Necromancer Mortanious who informs him that his murderers were in fact sent by one of the Pillars...so, that said, let's talk our Villain Protagonist...Kain.
Who is Kain?
Once a petty noble who made a devil's bargain for revenge, Kain destroyed all of the Circle of Nine...including Mortanious himself. However, it turned out that Kain himself? Was the new Guardian of Balance, born the very moment the last Guardian was murdered. Kain was given a choice: to sacrifice his life to restore balance and save the world.
He chose otherwise. Disgusted with humanity after witnessing how easily they'd been corrupted, Kain built a new vampiric empire and subjugated humanity beneath his boot, ruling for a thousand years. However, Kain had a different motive. Growing wiser as he grew older, Kain knew balance had to be restored, but he was unwilling to hand Nosgoth back to humanity, or to sacrifice himself. In order to 'keep his enemies' closer, Kain revived seven Warrior-Priest vampire hunters known as the Sarafan as vampires themselves with no memories of their mortal life as his chief lieutenants, leader among them being Raziel, Kain's right hand man. Now, a thousand years pass, and over time, Kain's children begin evolving new gifts after Kain himself does...until the day Raziel developed wings before Kain did....this was a sign to Kain, an indication of a twist of fate he had been expecting. As he put it? Throw a coin a thousand times and it's heads or tails...but suppose just once it lands on its edge.
In a fit of alleged jealousy, Kain broke Raziel's wings and had him cast into a terrible abyss called the Lake of the Dead, knowing Raziel would survive and return as a wraith, bent on revenge. Knowing Raziel was the one being in creation not subject to the turnings of fate, Kain had seen the future and knew his own death...but he could use Raziel to change everything.
Relying on Raziel's hatred of him, Kain manipulated his former lieutenant in his pursuit of him all the way to the point where Kain saw his own death in history. Convincing Raziel to fight against their fight, Raziel refused to kill Kain, changing history. Manipulating Raziel further past this point to reshape their destinies, Kain manipulates him into picking up an ancient sword called the Soul Reaver before it, well...reaved souls. It turns out the ravenous entity in the blade was always Raziel himself whose fate was to be devoured by the sword. Kain? tricked Raziel until this point, and then saved him from the blade, seeking to change their fate again. Unfortunately, this put a new factor into play: an ancient race of demonic beings banished by the ancient vampires called the Hylden, who sought to use Raziel to kill Kain.
Throughout the final game to date in series, Raziel and Kain are set on the grand chessboard, as Kain continues trying to change fate to the better. Raziel's master, a monstrous Eldritch Abomination called the Elder God also gets further involved, through one of Kain's arch-enemies, the Pillar of Time Moebius...but at the end? Kain manages to defeat death itself, kills Moebius in an immensely satisfying scene, and Raziel, realizing the only way things can end, has Kain impale him with the Reaver to absorb him into the blade, allowing Kain to see the Elder God at the end.
and what does Kain do when he sees a being who's been feeding upon souls, manipulating the history of the world, sparking war after war to keep the cycle of souls going? He kicks its ass, leaving it buried, screaming threats at him, telling it to "burrow deep"...the series sadly ends on something of a cliffhanger as Kain ponders what will come next, realizing that Raziel has given him "the first, bitter taste of that terrible illusion: hope."
So, what's he like?
Maybe it's the fact he's voiced by Simon Templeman to incredible effect. Maybe it's the amazing Faux-Shakesperean dialogue. But Kain is utterly ruthless, charming, charismatic and effective...the first game is a man manipulated by external forces, who realizes that manipulation and evolves to become the manipulator. Kain is someone who sees his death written in immutable fate and finds a way to change it. And when I say Kain has an amazing way of getting beyond his enemies, I mean you have no idea how good he is at it. Moebius sets up his death, only for Kain to return, surprise Moebius and finish him for good after Moebius tries complaining Kain's only solution to any problem is murder, remarking "This is not a debate.''
His ultimate goal is best defined in this quote: "Given the choice, whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire; or to challenge the fates for another throw - a better throw - against one's destiny... what was a king to do? But does one even truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate... and thus defy the tyrannous stars."
I want to stress, btw, how, again, a big theme of the series is fate. All are enslaved to it, all find themselves manipulated and used. Kain is the one who decides to flip the chessboard and make fate his own.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Kain is, ahh...NOT a good person. He's a ruthless tyrant who enacts a thousand-year long vampire dictatorship, murders people by the truckload, and condemned his most loyal follower to a thousand years of torment and servitude to an Eldritch Abomination in order to use him to help overturn fate. That said...Kain is incredibly wise, the least evil option and holds genuine care for others, especially Raziel (he is genuinely horrified when Raziel sacrifices himself and honors him for that sacrifice). Kain's views are shaped...quite understandably and while he does wish to save Nosgoth if only to rule it himself, he acknowledges that the corruption that infected the other Pillars infected him as well, and wishes to purge himself of it.
He is still something of a vampire supremacist, but I must say again, the man has incredible style, is always ready with an immensely witty line and you will very, very rarely ever find yourself coming out ahead against him. But he is, at worst A Lighter Shade of Black to monsters like the Hylden and the Elder God. At his core, though? Kain is a man taking on a fate he had imposed on him from birth and completely owning it.
Conclusion?
A quintessential example of a Villain Protagonist for this trope in the grand tragic drama that is Legacy of Kain.
edited 14th May '18 12:36:25 PM by Lightysnake
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Kain
Thanks man for the insight I made the cuts.
edited 14th May '18 1:16:51 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I can help with RWBY and with Bleach.
I can also help with the Star Trek franchise since I know there are some MBs listed there.
Short summary of what's behind the label notes:
- RWBY
- Cinder: doesn't count. Cut
- Raven: doesn't count. Cut
- Bleach
- Aizen: May be a deconstruction of the MB trope, but is probably better troped under Complexity Addiction or Manipulative Bastard instead.
- Tsukishima: doesn't count. Cut.
- Yhwach: Cheats the trope, so doesn't count. Cut.
RWBY List of issues
Issues with the original Cinder entry:
- Recruiting the two orphans isn't an example of MB. She corners a thief (Emerald) and gives her a choice between starvation and arrest or coming with her. That might make her a 'bastard' but it's not exactly magnificent. She is given the name of an assassin who might be useful for her plan. When she arrives at his house, it's in time to see him be murdered by his son. She hires him instead — but he only agrees if she can give him something in return; the show has so far not revealed what he got in return (although it's relatively easy to guess). So that's just straight convenience and negotiation.
- The plan that Cinder is in charge of for the show's first three volumes isn't her plan. It's her master's plan. Cinder is The Heavy, not the Big Bad. It is quite clear that Cinder has the freedom to adapt the plan as circumstances on the ground require, and it's clear she does adapt on the fly several times. So she's certainly quick on her feet, creative and flexible. She is a complete bastard and revels in the plan that's unfolding. I'm not entirely convinced it makes her an MB since she's essentially carrying out, and tweaking as necessary, someone else's plan.
- Ruby didn't catch her until after she implanted the virus. All Ruby did was delay her getaway. And, since she only arrived seconds before Ironwood did, it's arguable that Ruby didn't have any impact on what happened beyond giving the adults an excuse to speculate that she was the same woman who fought Glynda in the pilot episode.
- Volumes 1-3 are basically You Can't Thwart Stage One. In Volume 4 she's relegated to a bit part as she recovers from some very serious injuries and in Volume 5 she's in full power-hungry, vengeful, egomaniac mode, so makes some serious mistakes that help screw up the Big Bad's plan.
Issues with the original Raven entry:
- The runaway Spring Maiden isn't a feat: Spring was a frightened child when Raven took her in, gained her trust, tried to train her in how to use her powers and then decided the kid was too weak, would never learn, and killed the child to take the powers for herself. That's not being an MB, that's just being a B.
- Raven doesn't play the Big Bad's side for fools. Raven plays on Cinder's vengefulness and egomania in the hope of turning the Big Bad's team against the Big Good's team so that she can steal the MacGuffin for herself. She barely pulls it off and then her daughter comes along, points out the huge, honky flaws in her plan (which the audience also spotted), resulting Raven abandoning her plan in tears and running away. There's not much magnificence here and the lack of it is lampshaded in-universe.
- The decoy Spring Maiden was pretty cool and did catch out most of the audience (although not entirely all of the audience). But is that the MB trope or a strategy trope instead? There are going to be plenty of good strategies and forward planning (Raven spent years planning for the day the Big Bad finally came knocking at her door and still got pushed into a corner, thought up a really bad plan on the fly and got deconstructed by her eighteen-year-old daughter). So, this is the closest to contention that Raven gets to the MB trope and I, personally, don't think it's enough.
Bleach List of issues
Issues with Aizen:
- Aizen comes across as though he should be one. He's definitely designed to appear as one — certainly in the beginning. He plotted for decades, working from the shadows while presenting a congenial, friendly, even gentle, face to everyone. Very few people suspected him and he dealt quickly with those that did (mainly Shinji and Urahara) by framing them (the Central 46 interviewed 200 witnesses that all coroborated Aizen's version of events because he had used a combination of his Personality Power (he's a Master of Illusion) and a well-trained subordinate who acted as a decoy for a month to ensure he had alibis).
- He managed to use trickery to bring the leading Shinigami and the leader of Hueco Mundo under the power of his illusion ability. After Urahara was forced into exile, he and Urahara began an escalating shadow war where the first two-thirds of the story is basically just a chess game between the pair of them, with the main characters (protagonists and antagonists both) being the chess pieces.
- He could back up his illusion power with genuine ability. One of his subordinates joined his side with the intention of learning how to counter the illusions to obtain revenge, but didn't realise Aizen had figured this out a long time ago and was using him to further his own plans until it was too late.
- Towards the very end of his arc, his intention is revealed: he's trying to go through a series of power ups (that require him to be brought to the verge of death to achieve — this is why he kept his hopeful betrayer by his side for so long, he needed the near-death experience to get stronger). However, as he began to go through the power-up cycle, he became increasingly unstable and power-mad. It's openly lampshaded in the story by Urahara that the reason Aizen is defeated at this point is because of this instability: he was dangerous when he had less power and had to plot his successes. As soon as he left behind the brains for the unstable power, his plans started falling apart and he was defeated. It's also lampshaded that Aizen is Urahara's intellectual inferior. It's later implied in the final arc that this isn't unusual: most characters that start getting god-like power-ups become mentally unstable and throw away their strengths in favour of the raw power they're experiencing.
- While he starts off as an MB, he seems to end up being a deconstruction of one. That or perhaps he's best left under the Complexity Addiction trope, especially since he himself admits that Urahara's a better planner and manipulator than he is. He might be better suited to the Manipulative Bastard. However, if it's decided that Aizen doesn't count, it will be contentious and may run into trouble down the road — Aizen was quite popular with the fandom for his manipulative ways. The fandom really did like the idea of him as a Magnificent Bastard. So this is just a flag that it could be a problem down the road.
Issues with Tsukishima:
- He has the ability to brainwash people but is otherwise following the instructions of The Man Behind the Man. He doesn't count at all.
Issues with Yhwach:
- Everything Yhwach does is based on excessive power, the ability to see all possible futures, and his extremely warped vision of the world based on his extremely unique state of existence (he has to steal the souls of others just to be able to function at all). He's classified as a Complete Monster rather than Blue-and-Orange Morality, but he just happens to have knowledge of the origins of the world that most other characters lack, the ability to see possible futures, and the power to be a threat to anyone who opposes him. It therefore does make him look like he might be an MB contender but, functionally, he's not one — his abilities effectively 'cheat' the trope.
edited 14th May '18 1:20:33 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
From this, should ALL the MLP examples be cut? Adagio Dazzle is the one character who may count, and if she doesn't, why not?
Are there any Complete Monsters who this thread deemed count as an MB? Could they hypothetically count? Or is that now an automatic fail condition?
Goku Black
We approved a few MB/CM fusions like Hans Gruber from Die Hard, so being a CM isnt an instant disqualifer or anything. The issue is that most CM's tend to be either too smug, psychotic, sadistic to count as a proper MB, so it depdns on the character.
edited 14th May '18 1:24:24 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Reading back through the past pages, I'll throw in a vote for Garak.
The EP mentioned that his morality has to be pinned down rather carefully. It's because his morality is based on what he believes is best for Cardassia. He's the Patriotic Fervor trope. That means he will side with whomever will ensure the best options for the future of the Cardassia he loves. It's made for an extremely dynamic, manipulative character, but once you look at it from the perspective of what's best for Cardassia's survival/future, all of his apparently shifting loyalties have a surprisingly consistent basis. As a result, he's sided with the government, the Obsidian Order, the Federation, even the Bajorans. He has never sided with the Dominion because he recognised from the start just what a threat they were. And because he had a father to avenge, and Cardassians take destroying a dying parent's enemies extremely seriously.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Kain is a.
@miraculous: I’m still on my vacation which doesn’t end until the 30th so it gonna take a while before I get to EP Adrian Toomes the Vulture. If you want the Vulture EP soon met than later you might have to ask others if they seen Spider-Man Homecoming and see if they want to EP him
Here's the Video Game folder of the quotes page. Some have suggested that the page should be cut. Should we cut it?
Kerrigan: I don't think so, Admiral. You see, at this point... I am pretty much the Queen Bitch of the Universe. And not all of your little soldiers or space ships will stand in my way again.
Dreambert: Antasma! Hear me! This is the end for you! This time, I will ensure you never return!
Antasma: SCREEK! I haff heard those vords before, a long time ago... But this time vill be different... I haff Bowser on my si-
[Bowser throws Antasma to the ground]
Antasma: Vut?! Ouch!
Bowser: Hmph! I don't work well with others!
Antasma: SCREEK! Vut do you mean by this?!
Bowser: I mean you're an idiot! You thought you were using me? ME?! Buddy, I was playing you like a bat fiddle!
Antasma: Vut in the... No! How could you?!
Bowser: I'll tell you how. This castle? Peach? The Dream Stone? ALL MINE. You hear me? They belong to Bowser! [...] Why don't you guys have yourselves a pity party? Me, I'm done with you. Dream Stone! Let's get dreamy! Take me to the top!
Dreambert: Such a betrayal... I pity you, Antasma!
Raiden: Armstrong?! Impressive little toy you got there. But your plan ends here.
Armstrong: [laughs] Idiot. You're not ending our plan, you're expanding it. Checked the internet lately?
Raiden: Pfft.
Boris: Raiden! Air Force One is turning back to the States!
Raiden: What? How'd they know?!
Boris: Someone posted photos of what's happening to the base. The whole world is up in arms!
Raiden: Show me! [Raiden's codec displays several news reports] How did they...? The story leaked early...? Then Marshal's plan is ruined.
Boris: The hell it is! Look what they're saying! The story just went live and already they are calling for blood!
Raiden: But the president was saved...?
Armstrong: And yet American blood was spilled
Raiden: By Americans! Besides, a few dozen soldiers is tragic, but nothing to start a major war over.
Armstrong: That's just the spark, son. The excuse we've been waiting for. America's wanted this war for years. The Patriots — they knew war was good for the economy. Four years later their legacy lingers on...
Raiden: The memes...
Armstrong: They left us their great "ism"s! Nationalism! Unilateralism! Materialism! Welcome maxims for those with no faith — without guiding principles of their own. Give yourself up to the whole. No need to better yourself — you're American! You're number one! Then the only value left is the dollar value — the economy. So we'll do whatever it takes to keep it humming along. Even war. Especially war.
Raiden: [shakes his head] Bullshit.
Armstrong: The Patriots planted the seed — we don't need them around to filter and foster their memes any longer. We're spreading them just fine ourselves. Every American man, woman and child... We're all sons of the Patriots now! We just need something to jump start the economy out of this funk. This recession it's been stuck in since the fall of SOP.
Raiden: And the military costs? Wasting billions is going to help the economy?
Armstrong: PMCs, arms manufacturers... Job creators, Jack! All those workers spending money, paying taxes... Trust me, a little war can work wonders.
Raiden: So grease the gears with some innocent blood, is that it?
Armstrong: Oh, relax, Jack. It's a "war on terror." We're not out to kill civilians. Extremists. Lawless gangs. Madmen. Of course that would have to include you. Wouldn't want any eyewitness reports complicating the message.
Master Xehanort: Ah, but destiny is never left to chance. I merely guided them to their proper places. The broken boy who failed to be the blade...the misguided master who sacrificed herself for a friend...and the feckless youth who became my new vessel.
Mickey: I couldn't find a way to save 'em. But I wanted to believe that their sacrifice stopped you for good. Why? How was I so blind? I should have seen it, as soon as Maleficent started gathering the seven princesses of heart.
Master Xehanort: Yes. They were all my doing. I used the evil fairy to find seven pure lights for me, just as I prepared thirteen vessels to fill with pure darkness.
Riku: But you failed. Sora stopped you in your tracks on both counts.
Master Xehanort: Yes, he did. That dull, ordinary boy — a Keyblade wielder so unlike any I have ever seen. However, I have not abandoned my ambitions — the seven guardians of light and the thirteen seekers of darkness.
Mickey: Seven guardians of light? Well, for Keyblade wielders, there's me and Riku and Sora. And my three missing friends, that's six. Then the seventh would be...That means... the thirteen seekers of darkness...
Master Xehanort: Yes, little king. Perceptive. But Sora and another on your list belong to me now. And that puts you three guardians short. But worry not. All of the pieces are destined to appear. Your seven lights just like my thirteen darknesses, whose final clash will beget the prize I seek —
Xehanort & Mickey: The χ-blade!
No one from RWBY counts for reasons already listed. Cinder's a straight up Smug Snake and Raven's just a terrible, terrible character.
Cut the quotes. You can't sum up this trope in a quick exchange of dialogue.
edited 14th May '18 2:46:21 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Had to think on Kain but I'm willing to cut Fantastic Racism a bit more slack than someone with real world prejudices, given there is an actual difference between a vampire and a human. I say cut all the quotes.
Seconding all the Marvel cuts. Zemo's the only one I can see counting in the entire MCU.
Looking at those other Gundam examples miraculous posted:
Tassilo Vargo's entry admits he might just be a high-functioning Smug Snake and I'm inclined to say that no one in Victory could count anyway. Quality of the show may not be the most important factor when dealing with this trope, but it's more of a factor than when dealing with CM—if the show isn't at least plotted competently enough to sell the character's planning ability, we can't really qualify them. And Victory is not plotted competently at all—in fact it's deliberately plotted quite badly, because Tomino was sick of being asked to make Gundam shows and tried to create one so bad that they'd never ask him to do it again. It's less a coherent show than it is an attempt at career suicide by a mentally ill man who was not taking his medication, and the result's a disaster that I am highly skeptical is capable of producing an MB.
As for 00, Ribbons' entry again admits he devolves into a Smug Snake and Regene's entry is premised on his performance against Ribbons. Based on that alone, the entries should be cut. I will also object strongly to the idea Ribbons was ever an MB or even in the running. His one good moment was his reveal at the end of Season 1 that he, rather than Alejandro Corner, was the series' Big Bad. He never did anything MB worthy after that, relying on mind control, brute force, and his position rather than planning or interpersonal skills to get what he wanted. He never degenerated into a Smug Snake, he just revealed that he was one all along and that the fans had been overrating his ability based on a single performance.
Cut them all.
edited 14th May '18 7:40:52 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar