Well, I've clearly failed on some level here. Whether it's that the concept is intrinsically flawed, or that I just shouldn't write posts at three AM, I'm not sure. I find it interesting that this thread seems so overwhelmingly on Kylie's side, if only because the last three or four people I explained it to in real life were entirely on Richard's side and thought she was being unreasonable. Maybe I'm just really bad at conveying nuance. I'll try to respond to some of the criticism/comments here, then give Sword of Knowledge's post the critique that it deserves at the bottom, under the line.
@everybody
General world-building question. When it comes to the school itself I don't necessarily want to portray it as the worst place on earth, or even a stereotypical, "no supervision or punishment for the jocks" high school. I want it to be obvious that the school had serious, serious problems, but also that attending it was a positive experience for many. The notion I'm running with—have been running with since I came up with the story, honestly—is that rather than having the beautiful elite trample on everybody, which is rather overdone, the school had a small, permanent underclass that was victimised in some way, large or small, intentionally and unintentionally, by near everyone else. My question—what factors could create such an underclass, whose problems are ignored by the administration, even as things get worse and worse? And if that's not feasible, is there another set up that springs to mind? Or does it even need to be explained that well; if I say that such an underclass existed, will people just accept it, particularly if it's implied to be long running?
@Sword of Knowledge
"sounds less like a romantic setup than it does a faceoff between a self-absorbed antagonist and a heroine."
Now, I understand thinking this doesn't sound like a set up for a relationship, and I get thinking Richard is a bastard (he more or less is when the story opens). What I'm not following is where the notion that Kylie is in any way heroic is coming from. She's trying to preserve the building not because it's necessarily worth preserving, but as a monument to a period in her own life. In doing so she's potentially costing the town revenue in the form of new business, in order to create a museum that nobody outside of town is liable to visit. She and Richard are both meant to be caught in the past—he wants to kill it, she wants to relive it, but it isn't supposed to be healthy.
" I can't imagine someone as mired in hatred of their past as Richard would be too friendly towards someone who essentially represents everything he despised about high school."
Kiley was decent to Richard in high school, and while they didn't associate much in the building, they were still friends outside of it. While she didn't realise the extent of the abuse he was dealing with (which is partly on him, of course, for not talking about it), she was a safe person for him to hang out with after hours, and she still has a fair amount of his goodwill on account of that. When he comes back to town and finds her as she is, his reaction isn't anger or hate, but a desire to get her to move forward, and live up to the potential he thinks she has, and on some level he thinks tearing the place down will help her do that.
Kiley, for her part, has fond memories of Richard from when they were kids, and her first instinct when he comes home (and before she finds out what he's there for) is to try and resume the friendship. Once she figures out how badly damaged he still is, she becomes convinced that if she can get him to see things her way, it will pave the way to him being a better and happier person.
Essentially, Richard can recognize that Kiley is trapped in the past and has to move forward, and Kiley sees that Richard is trapped in the past and needs to move forward, but neither one can spot the own flaw in themselves. They're also positive that the result they want to see would be good for the other person and in one sense they are correct—Richard needs to be able to live with the building staying up, Kiley to survive if it goes down.
@Lorsty
Richard and Kiley do have a past together, though not necessarily a romantic one. That said, looking at my original post on them, I did a poor job of conveying that. In fact, for a story about two people so stuck in the past, I was pathetic at actually talking about that past. At the risk of being wordy, let me elaborate.
The two of them grew up a couple of houses away from each other, and were fast friends as kids. Richard was Kiley's first crush in Grade 5 (sadly he was in the cooties stage), Kiley was Richard's in Grade 8 (when she was interested in somebody else). Maybe they would have figured things out in high school, but that was when Richard's mom had a complete breakdown and was institutionalized, and he wound up at the very bottom of the social ladder. Kiley in the meantime ended up dating her Grade 8 crush, the captain of the basketball team, and moved into the upper social strata of the school, even as Richard slid down to untouchable level, and was on the receiving end of social ostracism from most people and physical brutality from some (said brutality extending to his then-girlfriend on at least one occasion). They were still neighbours, and still saw each other at their homes outside of school, but didn't particularly communicate about what was happening in it. Kiley, for instance, as the vague notion that Richard got slapped around a couple of times and wasn't very popular, but doesn't grasp the degree of it; while she knows he was deeply depressed, she assumes that was because of his mom, and doesn't connect it to how people were treating him after the fact.
In the present day, your idea of them meeting frequently is something I was planning to run with. Kiley is not only the face of the opposition to the demolition, she's the only person on the other side Richard even wants to talk to. Ideological differences aside, Richard sees Kiley divorced, unhappy, and working a deadend, underemployed job, and would like to help, but doesn't know how. Kiley sees Richard retreating from every day life and trying to hide behind his new corporate exec status, and wants to haul him back out into the real world. Each one has a notion that the other one should not be who they've turned out to be, and wants to assist in some way—though not knowing what to do coupled with the aforementioned ideological differences is in the way.
As for the end, I've actually considered keeping it ambiguous, having them both leave town before the issue is decided. Not sure if that's a good idea though.
@Sword of Knowledge
I think more of the backstory might actually help—or at least wouldn't hurt. Long posts have never bothered me. Going off what you've got here, though, I think Mia has the potential to be more problematic than Veil. When you combo Hired Guns, Lack of Empathy, and Social Darwinist, you start treading into Psycho for Hire, or at least unlikeable bitch territory. The whole "forcing him to fight the rest" in particular could make a bad first impression on readers—though if done right, could intrigue. Does she have standards? Are there jobs that she won't do? Contracts she'd balk at? I'll also admit I'm not fond of Proud Warrior Race types in general, so that might be part of the issue for me; take my criticism with a grain of salt.
On the positive side, this has potential to be a lot of fun for you to write, and has the bonus of some good old fashioned role reversal. "Physically unimposing male bodyguarded by badass female" isn't exactly unheard of (hey there Rock and Revy) but it's still much less common that the inverse, and is typically fun to read about. That both of them are, in some sense, The Chosen One, is also a nice twist. Out of curiosity, how close are they meant to be in age, and what ages are they for that matter?
On a sidenote, I was brainstorming story ideas the other day and came up with a story concept that was highly similar to this one, with upper class, naive boy from better place being guarded by cynical, mercenary female. Only real difference was my guy could fight. Either we're on a wavelength, or this is further proof of the fact that there are only so many ideas out there (not a criticism that; originality is highly overrated).
Okay, so here's my couple. I'm borrowing Ambar's framework; hope that's okay.
—
Names: Nioba Agavis and Lihiri Darvisha.
Setting: Baystone, a major city on a noir-fantasy world where magic and technology frequently intertwine.
Who are they?: Nioba is a former Liberatrix from Zynobia, a sort of Social Justice Holy Warrior who traveled overseas to fight injustice (which is rather broadly defined by Zynobians), discovered that life beyond Zynobia is far more complicated than she expected and that strict adherence to religion only gets you so far, and now works various combat-related jobs in Baystone while telling herself that one day she'll go back to Fighting the Good Fight. She has very strong convictions about Right and Wrong, tempered by an understanding that the rest of the world doesn't necessarily have the same views. In terms of appearance, she is a tall and very muscular dark-skinned woman. She also wields a huge buster sword called an obano.
Lihiri is a Zinji - an elf, basically. Originally from the repressive dictatorship of Kralluk Kurnoz, where her people are an oppressed minority (to the point where the government literally treats them as objects and performs horrible experiments on them to turn them into living weapons.) She managed to escape and ended up in Baystone, where she works as a hospital janitor who does under-the-table healing magic. She's cheerful and sweet-natured, if a little absent-minded. She is brown-skinned, elfin, and androgynous.
How did they meet?: One night, Lihiri suddenly found herself in Baystone, covered in blood with no memory of how she got there, and she ran like hell, eventually breaking into Nioba's apartment. She enlisted Nioba's help in figuring out what the hell happened, and together, they discovered that Lihiri had been a zilah - a living weapon - and had been sent to Baystone as part of a plot to destroy the city. As they worked together to prevent that plot, they found that they rather liked each other, and they've been nearly inseparable since.
What is the status of their relationship when the story begins?: The first story, There's an Elf in My Goddamned Kitchen (working title), is the origin of their relationship. All the other stories I've used them in (including Character World's Fair, here on this very forum) have them as a couple who've been together for some time.
Problems?: In the first story, of course, they have to get past the usual barriers between two strangers. Since becoming a couple, they're navigating things like sex (Zinji anatomy is a bit complicated in that respect) and religious beliefs (the Zynobian religion frowns upon relationships between Liberators and former slaves - Lihiri prefers to argue that she is technically a former weapon, and therefore the rules do not apply.) As their relationship develops, Lihiri also gets frustrated when Nioba continues to treat her as if she's fragile. For her part, Nioba develops some envy when Lihiri is able to find steady work despite having no previous work history, while her own reputation as a former Liberatrix tends to scare off potential employers.
There's also a bit of a communication deficit - Nioba doesn't talk much about her career as a Liberatrix, and Lihiri consistently insists that she doesn't remember much about her life as a living weapon, which is patently false. They prefer not to push each other on these matters, which creates problems because Nioba made some enemies in her old life, and Kralluk Kurnoz is not exactly unaware that one of their "weapons" is running loose on another continent.
What do they want?: They both want a stable, lasting relationship, although as the relationship develops, their priorities start to differ - Nioba prefers to maintain a routine, whereas Lihiri becomes more eager to try new things. As for what they want for each other, Nioba wants Lihiri to recover from her experiences, whereas Lihiri hopes that she can get Nioba to stop dwelling on her past.
Resolution: Obviously, they need to learn how to communicate with one another better. They also need to deal with their pasts - Lihiri must confront her memories of Kralluk Kurnoz, however unpleasant they are, while Nioba must accept her failures as a Liberatrix and stop ruminating on them.
Other things to consider: When I began creating these two, I decided early on that Nioba would be a woman of color, then later I decided that Lihiri would also be a woman of color. I'm still wondering whether or not that decision could lead to Unfortunate Implications with regards to their backstories, although I suppose it will depend on the racial makeup of the rest of the setting and characters as I develop the stories. The references to Lihiri being androgynous come from my toying around with the notion that Zinji do not have distinguishing sexual characteristics, although I'm not sure if I'll stick with that idea...
edited 11th Jul '15 12:52:26 AM by StrixObscuro
By now, it should be clear to all except the most dense of us that sheep are secretly conspiring to kill us all and steal our pants.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
First, I'm considering Mia and Veil as a romantic comedy even though that's not the genre. The pattern might be helpful to consider, for instance that the obstacles and the relationship (in a romantic comedy) are best when they're balanced. If the obstacles outweigh the relationship, an audience would be convinced that they're wrong for each other. If the relationship outweighs the obstacles, then the audience gets frustrated that they don't both just get along. (Basically I'm seeing Pride And Prejudice with Mia as Darcy.)
I like how Mia fled the status that Veil was essentially living as heir to Evermerry. Since Veil felt ambivalent about that status, resentful of staying but also forced out of that by the Crystal Dragon Jesus, there could be a bond there with Veil coming to terms with the resentfulness being valid and adventures being worth it if an adventurer quits being so wishy-washy...which Mia could give a few lessons in.
Also, as Mia has actual emotions (suffering from an internalized aspiration to Social Darwinism that only other people would see her make other people suffer,) admitting them to herself and Veil actually being able to realize it would ease the tension, I think. It could even come in any order. If Mia believes that power is important, but can't explain it to somebody who values something other than power, makes an interesting character study. Veil coming to know that there are emotions and aspirations in Mia that Mia won't admit to makes an interesting relationship.
I'm getting some Xena/Gabrielle vibes from Nioba and Lahiri, which I don't think is a bad thing.
If they break that trope and actually talk to each other, would that dissolve all potential story conflict? Say, Nioba warns Lihiri that she has a specific enemy in town who could target Lihiri as a way to get to Nioba...and Lihiri goes, "I'll protect you!" And either gets herself captured or delivers Nioba's enemy hog-tied on Nioba's doorstep with a gift card stuck to the enemy's forehead. What's left of their relationship without external conflict?
@ Sharysa
I guess a large part is just developing Eglantine, who was more of a Cloud Cuckoo Lander in Fairyland because she had woken up from a long dream. With a human identity override, my headcanon of Eg is so reasonable and passionless that I can't even. Upper crust life feeling wrong? Maybe everybody secretly feels that way, don't be rude and make people uncomfortable by saying anything. Fallen to the lower crust? Welp, better roll up the sleeves and do whatcha know you got to. Rose says that Eg moves in a pink-and-gold cloud of divine perfection so intangibly warm that it's all anybody can do not to fall to their knees and weep at the privilege of breathing the same air? "That's sweet of you to say, dear."
edited 11th Jul '15 1:30:46 PM by Faemonic
Strix Obscuro: The biggest problem is, as you say, communication.
The thing about real life relationships, is that they depend heavily on communication, and both parties have to be willing to participate. If they don't, things quickly fall apart. The reason why it's because of trust. Without communication we cannot know what the other person really wants and there is no trust in them, in ourselves, and in the relationship itself.
In fiction, good communication is just as important. Especially because the existence or lack of trust can break your audience's willing suspension of disbelief.
Remember that, while some people are very good at keeping secrets and maintaining a good façade, most people aren't and those around are able to caught subtle signs that point to the fact that everything is not alright. That creates doubt, which is not good for a healthy relationship.
However, doubt is a good source of conflict, especially in a romantic sub-plots. So, even if they're trying to respect each other, they're still allowed to resent the fact that they believe the other isn't being completely honest.
My advice would be to explore the internal conflict of each character, as an individual, instead of focusing on the external aspects that could threaten their relationship. So, instead of exploring those ancient enemies that have come to destroy a perfect fairytale-like relationship, you could show how their own insecurities and trust issues are getting in the way of their perfect, fairytale-like relationship.
Re "Po C and Unfortunate Implications": I'd say that, unless you add a Mighty Whitey character to save the day, you shouldn't care too much about this aspect.
Fae: It sounds like Eglantine is becoming human. This sounds really fucking interesting!
Also, what's wrong with normal people like Eglantine? I LOVE normal people! After a point in reading fantasy, you get sick of reading about heroes and Speshul Snowflakes and people rising to the occasion to stop horrible threats.
My entire plot in Moonflowers is that normal people are trying to deal with the 10% of really horrible Fair Folk, and the entire point is that they NEED god-help because fairy sociopaths are at least ten levels up from human ones. The story wouldn't work at ALL if they were just another group of heroes in the making.
Oh, Eg's still got to rise to the challenge eventually, but until then there's sheep to herd. Thanks for the angle, though! I like normal, too, precisely why I put the royal family of the Lost-And-Found on a farm somewhere on earth instead of on a floating island made out of amethyst and run by time-traveling clerics represented by disembodied Venetian masques or something weird.
But often Normal People can get unreasonable or start getting loud and doing shocking things for what's important to them. Rose is mostly human and already does that. Eg? Ah...I'll have to think more...
@ Ambar Son Of Deshar: About Kylie and Richard...you're right, and I'm sorry. I never even considered that Kylie had selfish and decidedly "un-heroic" motivations of her own when trying to keep the school as a museum. It's just that Richard seemed the easier person to view as a "villain" what with his determination to destroy a building that connected to his dark past without thinking of anyone else's feelings.
"When he comes back to town and finds her as she is, his reaction isn't anger or hate, but a desire to get her to move forward, and live up to the potential he thinks she has"
Anger and hatred is exactly how I thought he would react—to try to tear down her determination and crush her using the force of his money and clout and verbally berate her. So...huh. Again, I can see it from both sides now and it definitely makes things more gray.
Veil and Mia: Yes, more backstory on them probably would be helpful. I just wanted to be careful not to create a word wall/info dump. I'm not especially good at seperating character history from the history/background of the story itself, especially when characters like Veil and Mia's histories are so intertwined with the world of the story itself. I'll do better with my next relationship profile, promise.
Mia is definitely...unpleasant at first, so I'm glad someone picked up on that. Her Character Development sees her transition from a cold and generally "unlikable bitch" who clings to her own values and culture as superior to others, into someone who values the opinions and welfare of people not of her homeland and even those she views as weaker. But I might tone down some of her darker traits, so I don't alienate people completely.
You mentioned wanting to know Veil and Mia's ages. Veil is 20 and Mia is 22. I wanted her to be somewhat older, adding to the "more experienced" vibe, but not so much older as to make it strange.
Interesting that you had a similar idea regarding gender and body-guarding. I'm curious, is it fantasy or magically based like mine?
@ Faemonic: I'm not exactly familiar with Pride and Prejudice, but you are right about Veil and Mia's value problems. The main obstacle is that they are both from two very different cultures, and Mia's has been isolated for centuries, meaning they have had next to no exposure to one another so both think of their ways as superior and/or alien. The whole "admitting you have emotions/insecurities is something heavily frowned upon in Mia's world so it will definitely be something she has trouble doing ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
.
@ Strix Obscuro: Yes, communication is something they need to work on, though it depends on how their relationship goes. Refraining from pushing one another about their respective pasts is a good call, especially in the early stages. However from what I've read, it does seem like Lihiri and Nioba are becoming closer, and people tend to confide in their significant others, so maybe all that that aspect of the relationship needs is time.
About the Unfortunate Implications, I understand where you're coming from, but from the little that I've gleaned about your story by reading this profile, nothing really seems wrong with it. So, um...don't worry? 
I hoped that was reassuring.
edited 12th Jul '15 2:29:36 PM by Swordofknowledge
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
Another relationship from Archmage Reborn, though this one is for the villains. I should note that this relationship is intentionally flawed and borderline abusive, so this should be interesting.
Names: Elena Raines and Daniel Cheney
Setting:: A world known as the Haven, where magic and technology exist side by side, and countries allied with either a Magocracy or an Anti-Magical Faction struggle in an off and on Forever War.
Who Are They?:
Elena is a magical researcher and part-time arms dealer. Her mother was a minor noble from the Six Peerless Gardens— allied city-states that acted as one nation—and her father was an ambassador from the powerful kingdom of Valia. Due to his racism against Garden citizens, Elena's father was cold and abusive towards Elena and her mother. When Elena's mother violated Valia's complete ban on magic use, he had her executed and the marriage annulled. Elena later killed him and used his fortune to study the origins and secrets of magic. She gathered many like-minded people to her cause and has performed countless unethical experiments on victims from all over the Haven. She bolsters her father's failing fortune by creating and selling powerful enchanted weapons. She has a near-pathological need for validation of her ideas and becomes enraged when she feels undervalued. Appearance wise she is a small dark-skinned woman in her mid-thirties with shoulder-length white hair and glasses.
Daniel is the leader of a large network of bandits and highwaymen that spread across the kingdom of Cloutin's western border. He grew up in poor conditions as the result of an affair between a married barmaid and an unknown customer. After eighteen years of toxic tension and fighting with his siblings and step-father, he killed them and set out on his own, sparing his mother. Daniel is Hot-Blooded but charismatic and intelligent which allows him to draw followers from downtrodden and generally angry people he encounters. He is a powerful warrior and keeps his bandit horde in check through rewards, intimidation and—if necessary—brutal, uncompromising violence. He is both loved and feared by his subordinates due to the successful raids and robberies he has planned and the generous distribution of spoils. He wields a massive two blade pole-arm. Daniel is muscular tall and blond, verging on six feet, with Perma-Stubble.
How Did They Meet?: Elena was forced to enter Cloutin through its forests while on the run from the Conclave's agents who would have executed her and her followers. They were attacked by Daniel's bandits, who couldn't resist the sight of a group of prosperous travelers into their territory. It came to a standoff as both sides fought with magic, guns and blades. Finally Daniel himself confronted her and Elena proposed an alliance. She would use Daniel's bandits to act as hired muscle for her researchers and in return the bandits would be given greater weaponry and magic for their own purposes.
What Is The Status Of The Relationship When The Story Begins?: Daniel just saw Elena as a particularly attractive mark and victim. However after she proposes the deal, he decides to act on those feelings. Elena for her part is afraid of Daniel and hates him because of that fact, but also views him as a useful tool and so thinks quickly to make use of his resources.
Problems: Elena is asexual and Daniel is very much not, thus Elena views it more as a duty than an act of love. They both scoff at one another's background and education—or lack thereof. While Daniel is only interested in a physical relationship, Elena is not interested in either physical relations or emotional ones. She is merely using their coupling as a means to manipulate the partnership so that her group is protected. Thus she has to force herself to really spend quality time with him.
More than anything, Daniel is becoming disgusted with the things Elena does to people in the name of research. While willing to kill and steal, he frowns on abducting and essentially torturing innocent people for something as obscure as "the secrets of magic". Elena crosses lines Daniel didn't even know he had and he becomes more discontented every day. Every moment of visible squeamishness in her presence results in Elena mocking him or becoming outright offended.
What Do They Want?: Elena's goal is to discover the origin of magic and eventually create a marriage of magic and technology, and become world-famous. Daniel wishes for continued success for his gang and to avoid the prying eyes of Legenada, as they frown on independent criminal activity in their expanding territory. Relationship wise, he desires a stable physical relationship with Elena but does sometimes wish she responded to him on an emotional level. He also wishes she would stop making him question his convictions and beliefs about himself with her own morally questionable actions.
- Resolution: This is where it gets interesting. There is no peaceable resolution to this relationship. In Archmage Reborn canon, it ends in violence and Daniel becoming an amnesiac after Elena brutally attacks him for insulting her life's work.
- Other Things To Consider: The relationship functions as the backstory to two characters, an amnesiac bounty hunter and Elena Raines one of the Big Bad Duumvirate. As backstory it's sort of set in stone but I wanted to know what people thought about it. And hey, feel free to offer resolutions that could have set this on a less violent course.
edited 12th Jul '15 3:50:28 PM by Swordofknowledge
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
@Sword of Knowledge
Glad to clear things up. Given that Richard is a deliberate subversion of the Childhood Memory Demolition Team, I guess I shouldn't be surprised he presents as worse than Kylie at least right off the hop. In any case, my intentions for the two of them is that each can see that the other has gone badly wrong somewhere and wants to help but is, at the same time, oblivious to the same issues in themselves.
If I might offer some advice for Mia—or any other character who starts out with less than stellar morals—I often find, when trying to write similar characters, that the best way to do it is to actually introduce them doing a good deed, then reveal their moral impairment. That way the audience has that good deed cushioning the later nastiness, and giving them something to hold onto until the Character Development kicks in.
I actually have two separate versions of the same story, one fantasy based, one more sci-fi. Both versions feature a young man from an aristocratic family in a floating city crashlanding on the continent below, and being picked up by a female soldier-of-fortune in the employ of the local world-conquering despot. In the fantasy version he's a pegasus knight, and she's an armoured hulk with a BFS, while in the non-fantasy version, he's an Ace Pilot, while she's the commanding officer of a tank company. I've never been sure which variant to run with.
PAINKILLER
It's a very interesting relationship there. It's manipulative and for personal gain on Elena's part.
I can imagine it resolving only in a violent matter, but perhaps Elena uses some sort of magic that makes him amnesiac? Like, he confronts her, and she realizes he's of no use to her or something then it happens.
Maybe they had a power imbalance. At first it was Daniel, the over time, Elena grew stronger, and their relationship weakened him? Just a thought.
EDIT:
This is from a space opera, and it deals with an Old Flame relationship. They are the main couple.
Names: Jade Vyvansen and Kegan Segal
Who Are They?:
Jade is an ex-special ops soldier for the Republic of Allied Systems (just called the Republic). She becomes an independent soldier in search of answers of her old unit’s break down, as she was supposed to be snuffed out when it went under. She is independent, confident, and intelligent. She is also a very serious and sometimes cold person, which shuts out possibilities for relationships. She tends to falter on forming friendly and romantic relationships, but is fine with comradeship (it doesn’t involve much talking, just working together to reach a goal). She tries not to show any emotion, and keeps her feelings inside. Overall, she’s a serious and effective soldier, but struggles with being ‘human’. She appears East-Asian, tan skin, and keeps her long black hair tied up. She is averaged sized and muscular.
Kegan is a human hybrid of a close-to-extinct alien race known as the Psions. He appears human, but is also an Empath, so he can feel strong emotions when he’s near someone. He was the commander of several units and star ships, and is very successful. But once the Republic started doing things he didn’t agree with, he defected to the Neutral Planets Coalition and started up his own star ship crew. He is kind, honorable, and strategic in thinking, making him popular among those in his command. Though he can be too passionate at times, and tries to help everyone and everything, in which leads him to lose altogether. Many people don’t respect his nosiness in affairs he doesn’t belong. He gets in self-deprecating moods when he fails to meet his high standards and goals. He’s a bit of a sore loser as well (though his reaction isn’t angry, but depressive/sad), because losing means lives being lost under his command. Overall, he’s a great commander and kind soul, but sometimes too passionate and. He’s a white man, large-built, strong jawline and short haircut (basically what an average commander would look like).
How did they meet?:
Kegan was commander of Jade’s unit. They met on their first mission. They backed off at first due to their jobs, but Kegan allowed a safe place for Jade to say what/how she feels and to keep it between them.
What began as a close work relationship became something deeper, as Jade was comfortable enough to open up around him. They fell in love initially because Jade trusted him with her thoughts, secrets, and feelings. For Kegan, he grew more respect and trust with her than the rest of their comrades, and realized he wanted to be with her (I will address this later).
Problems?:
Before the story begins, Jade had gone missing for five years (she was captured and forced through a pirate slave trade) and their relationship was not given closure.
They meet again, and team up to further their common goal, but they still have lingering feelings they must address. They both are unsure about pursuing the relationship again, as they last spoke to each other on rocky terms. Jade is unsure about pursuing him again, as she went through things that actually made her emotionally colder. She also dislikes how Kegan tries to get into her business in order to please her, as she is a private person (and became even more so).
Kegan wants to help her, but her coldness keeps him out on most cases. He also wants to progress their relationship further, which she disapproves of (she becomes afraid of opening up as she could easily lose him with their dangerous mission). He’s also the one who wants to try again at first before Jade realizes her still-latent feelings (she’s slow to realize it as she rarely thinks of her emotions).
What do they want?:
They want to pursue a deeper relationship and help each other.
Resolution?:
Jade has to realize when to ask for help, as she cannot fight all her battles single-handedly. She also needs to learn to open up sometimes, as bottled-up feelings aren’t healthy. Kegan needs to learn that not everyone wants to be or can be helped, as they can help themselves.
Other things to consider?:
The thing is, they’re trying to start a romantic relationship again, but it’s when their goal (finding out what happened to their unit, as well as uncovering a conspiracy that will lead to a war) also endangers it.
I also have concerns in terms of Kegan’s side of the relationship:
Even though Jade is the protagonist and the story is hinged on her, I think Kegan gets the short end of the stick when it comes to problems in the relationship. Most of the problems are caused by her coldness and unwillingness to pursue things further. I think Kegan needs some more baggage or cause something himself other than trying to help her. I think he also needs to learn a thing or two from their relationship.
They do get back together, and I have ideas of how They Do, but I feel like if I add more problems, they will never get back together, and yet I feel like they don’t have enough.
edited 12th Jul '15 7:16:40 PM by electronic-tragedy
Life is hard, that's why no one survives.
PAINKILLER
I'm guessing I killed the thread...
Life is hard, that's why no one survives.
I've been working on my own stuff, sorry! I'll get to the newest relationship in a few days.
Thanks for the feedback, folks. I suppose I should have clarified that Nioba and Lihiri don't keep each other in the dark about the dangers entailed by their relationship - Lihiri knows that Nioba has enemies and Nioba knows that there are people looking for Lihiri. It's more that when their pasts do catch up with them, it tends to be in the form of some random guy Nioba disarmed ten years earlier and forgot about, or another escaped zilah that Lihiri forgets ever encountering back when she was still in Kralluk Kurnoz.
If they break that trope and actually talk to each other, would that dissolve all potential story conflict? Say, Nioba warns Lihiri that she has a specific enemy in town who could target Lihiri as a way to get to Nioba... and Lihiri goes, "I'll protect you!" And either gets herself captured or delivers Nioba's enemy hog-tied on Nioba's doorstep with a gift card stuck to the enemy's forehead. What's left of their relationship without external conflict?
Realistically, the trope will have to be broken eventually. It's mainly a question of when, but they do start opening up at some point. I've made a point of not making every story involving them be focused entirely on their relationship, so there will still be places for them to go when they do start opening up.
edited 18th Jul '15 12:19:41 AM by StrixObscuro
By now, it should be clear to all except the most dense of us that sheep are secretly conspiring to kill us all and steal our pants.
@ electronic-tragedy: I'm certainly willing to comment. Kegan and Jade's relationship seems well thought out, with a clear and concise conflict (and a very good backstory, I might add; it holds my interest). However you are very right about Kegan's...tolerance for Jade's issues, and I do have a suggestion for how to remedy that.
While being The Empath might make him an almost inhumanly patient man, everyone has their limitations sooner or later. If you can't really think of any baggage for him, take Jade's coldness and resistance and play up their effects on how he sees things. Make him wonder why he is pursuing a relationship with this woman and give him doubts. Cause him to lose his temper maybe once or twice at her for something she does that offends or hurts him, and if you want to, make her snap back. It gives the sense that Kegan is just as much a feeling and thinking character as Jade, and that her issues are making it difficult for both of them.
edited 18th Jul '15 10:28:14 AM by Swordofknowledge
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
PAINKILLER
I was having issues because he's a kind soul, but you're right. Everyone has limits. Maybe he feels like he's giving too much without getting something in return.
Kegan also has a Justice Will Prevail sort of mentality, and Jade is a bit more lenient on morality- she will do whatever the mission needs. If it includes getting a couple people hurt (or killed), she doesn't mind, but Kegan will. Maybe that's how they'll butt heads.
Life is hard, that's why no one survives.
Here's another villain relationship from Archmage Reborn.
Names: Rand Adenade and Rose Ginny
Setting: A world known as the Haven, where magic and technology exist side by side. Countries allied with either a Magocracy or an Anti-Magical Faction struggle in an off and on Forever War.
Who Are They?:
Rose is a member of the Red Cloaks, six witches and wizards of fearsome power who lead the criminal syndicate Legenada and her Codename is Sorrow. Rose was born in Anticlaire city, and when she was ten years old civil war broke out in the city between supporters of the Conclave and the Iron Legion. A degenerative curse was unleashed upon a large portion of the population by zealous Conclave supporters, an incident that killed Rose's family and tainted her. Because of this she requires constant "maintenance" to prevent her body from breaking down. Rose is devoted to Legenada's founder Bartholomew and his plan for world peace and willing to do anything to accomplish it. She has no tolerance for anyone who stands in the way of those plans, even if they are allies. Appearance wise she is a pale, sickly-looking woman with short orange hair and dark black eyes and wears a red hooded robe with light armor underneath.
Each Red Cloak is assigned a partner, and Rand is Rose's. He is also from Anticlaire city and lived through the horror that was the civil war. Orphaned from an early age, Rand made his way on the street for years, stealing what he could and making scant amounts of money through odd jobs for strangers, he struggled to survive. After the war he took advantage of the chaos to steal and loot what he could and gained a reputation for his thievery. Like Rose, he too was recruited by Bartholomew, Legenada's leader and given a high-ranking role in the organization. He is also devoted to their master's mission but finds himself more distracted and must be snapped back into focus. Rand is a tall young man with long unkempt brown hair and blue eyes wearing armor stamped with Legenada's symbol.
How Did They Meet?: When Rose's parents died, she found herself on the street due to the city's infrastructure being destroyed. She begged for food or did odd jobs to pay for the healing magic infusions she needed to stay alive. At age twelve she met Rand as he fled an angry group of men he'd stolen from. She helped him escape to her makeshift home and the two of them stayed together for two years, during which their relationship became friendship and then something more. At fifteen the both of them were adopted by Bartholomew after a failed attempt at mugging him. They became his apprentices and came to share his vision and plans.
Problems: Since living as Street Urchins Rand had the role of protector and often took the initiative. After becoming Bartholomew's apprentices, Rose took to the art of magic and surpassed Rand in every way. This causes him to develop a deep inferiority complex which only deepens after being defeated twice by Veil River. Rand also resents Rose's dedication to the plan—the curse will kill her eventually, and despite his loyalty to Bartholomew, he wants the two of them to live a life for themselves with what time they have left together.
While she loves Rand, Rose is wholly dedicated to the cause of stopping the war and preventing more tragedies like the one she suffered. Rand's not-so-subtle hints that they should take a break and live for themselves grate on her nerves due to her understanding that she doesn't have much time left. She also worries constantly that his increasingly reckless actions—fueled by his sense of inferiority—will get him killed.
What Do They Want?: They both want the relationship they've held for so long to continue. How they want this relationship to progress differs. Rose wants Rand to fall into line and work harder to bring their master's plans to fruition while maintaining their affection for one another. Rand wants Rose to use her remaining time to enjoy herself and feels that she's done enough.
Resoultion: Both Rand and Rose need to sit down and talk about their differences of opinion without judgments. They have had discussions about it, but it always ends when one of them says something judgmental or condescending upon which they both storm away and go back to business as usual in awkward silence.
edited 20th Jul '15 11:24:10 AM by Swordofknowledge
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
To be honest, they need couples therapy. Or some villainous counterpart to it.
Otherwise that relationship sounds like Unholy Matrimony that's unfortunately on its last legs, and I would be terribly sad if they couldn't resolve their issues, especially if Rose died.
Does Rand know that Rose genuinely doesn't have much time left, as opposed to just needing her normal medical aid? Does Rose know why Rand wants her to take some time off so badly?
If either answer is "No" and you want them to stay together, then you'll have to figure out how they can compromise in a REALLY safe discussion. I'm thinking they both know that they can't keep blowing up at each other and leaving in a huff, so sitting down with each other and emphatically trying not to get TOO mad feels like it would happen organically.
edited 20th Jul '15 11:33:46 AM by Sharysa
@ Sharysa: Oh yes, yes they do need therapy. Unholy Matrimony is really what I'm going for; Rose and Rand are the only romantic relationship among the bad guys that isn't irredeemably warped and twisted in some way (it fits with their Anti-Villain status, I think.)
To answer your questions. Yes, Rand and Rose are both very aware that she is dying and has little time left. That is actually what forms the core of their argument: Rand wants Rose to live a normal life before her death while Rose wants to use that little time before the end to do as much as she can for their rather...interesting idea of world peace.
About the resolution—I didn't put this above, but their dispute is eventually resolved, in a way. Rose dies in battle with The Hero and Rand decides to wholly dedicate himself to the cause as a way of honoring her memory. However they never did reach an agreement on how they would spend her last months of life. Sorry it's kind of a downer but Archmage Reborn is one of those stories.
edited 20th Jul '15 12:52:05 PM by Swordofknowledge
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
Male and female protagonists from the story I wanna make
Name(s):: Drew Perry and Katherine (Kat) Styx
Setting: (Fictional) Country known as Kalros, specifically New Way City, where most of the storyline takes place. Magical, 1940s-esque city, with cars, guns, gangs, politicians, like an alternate 40s New York. Humans, half-elves, elves, and many others abound.
Who Are They:
Drew Perry is the main character of the story. When he was seven years old, his family was attacked and killed by a werewolf, with him personally being bitten. After shifting through shelters and general homelessness, Drew finally arrives at the New Way City Academy of Magic, where he studies and trains in an attempt to become the greatest (fire) Mage of all time. Despite his dream, Drew is rather untalented and unskilled, but achieves greatness through his sheer bravery.
Katherine Styx is the main heroine of the story. Abandoned in infancy, Kat was found and raised by a man named Gillead Kross, an ancient immortal knight that lead an organization known as the Silver Blade. Trained from infancy to be nothing more than a weapon for Kross, Kat is a skilled martial artist, specializing in bladed weaponry. Kat is a prodigy of the Silver Blade, and Kross's most prized possession. At one point she becomes infected with vampirism.
How Did They Meet: Kat begins attending the Academy midway in the school year, as one of the non-magical members. Despite passing off as merely a bright and beautiful school girl eager to learn, Kat's true purpose was to first obtain a Soul Gem for Kross and perform the ritual to fill it with the souls of the unsuspecting students, in an attempt to lengthen Kross's immortality. Drew originally got to know her through classes, but eventually became entangled in her, or rather, Kross's insidious plot.
What Is The Status of Their Relationship When The Story Begins: They don't really have one, Drew doesn't know Kat and she doesn't know him. Although he is somewhat jealous of her status as the top student in his classes. Kat originally ignores Drew but grows frustrated with his attempts to screw up her leader's plot.
Problems: Kat and Drew are obviously enemies throughout the first part of the series. After Kat becomes a vampire things become more complex. Kat is now being targeted as an abomination for the very organization she was raised by and still has Drew against her. After he Heel–Face Turn, Kat has major issues socializing and forming bonds, especially Drew, due to her childhood as a Tyke Bomb.
What Do They Want: Kat's original goal is to secure and fill a soul gem for her master, Gillead, and Drew just wants to study and become strong so he can't be pushed around anymore. As time goes on, Drew's goals change to making a positive difference in the screwed up society he lives in and Kat's become more or less to protect the world and the friends she began making, like Drew.
- Resolution: Well, they begin a romantic relationship in the end of the series
- Other Things To Consider: This is meant to be more of an action adventure series, so, my plan was to have romantic feelings develop in the characters through the struggles and adventures they go through together.
Awwww. Well, at least it's not too much of a shock.
A mage and a vampire? Interesting pairing.
You should probably explain why the characters pull off a Heel-Face Turn as well.
They seem to only fall into a romantic relationship at the end of the story, which might work, but I'm not sure how their chemistry is.
You should probably give examples of how their experiences cause them to develop romantic feelings for one another.
_____
Names: Lewis and Vera
Setting: A sci-fi fantasy setting. Guns and robots coexist with magical elves and dragons.
Who Are They?: Lewis is a by-the-book police officer/secret agent In the five-man band, he's the Hero. He's a bit Gung Holier Than Thou, and a Wide-Eyed Idealist. He also tends to play straight man to the other characters. He's a very chivilarous gentleman. However, he's a little socially awkward (and generally, a bit of a dork).
Vera is a Robot Girl, who takes Religious Robot Up To Eleven, with her being a magical cleric. Mind you, the religion she follows is a downplayed machine cult (It considers math sacred, and is generally pro-intellectual. However, it doesn't consider technology holy, merely the intellectualism the creates technology). However, she is something of an oddity, as robots are usually nothing more than servants. A robot who teaches religion is nearly unheard of, and rather controversial. As such, she's usually relegated to preaching to other robots. Her personality is based on Yuuko from XXX Holic. She flips from eccentric and theatrical, to displaying otherworldly wisdom.
Lewis seems to consider Vera a "Magical Girlfriend" of sorts, with him being the "geeky loser".
Vera likes the fact that Lewis is a gentleman to everyone, even someone who would usually be considered an inferior to him. He's even a little submissive towards her (initially, the reason for this is that Lewis reasons that a church leader, human or not, deserves his respect and humility). A human acting submissive to her is a very novel concept to her, which she likes.
How did they meet?: Lewis is/was a deacon at her church, which is where they met. They started talking to each other, and eventually began dating.
What is the status of their relationship when the story begins?: They're boy/girlfriends at the start. They live together, but cannot legally get married at the start of the story.
Problems: Mostly fantastic racism and similar oddities of a human-robot relationship. Even they themselves aren't entirely immune to it. Aside from that though, they occasionally have trouble understanding how the other thinks (Vera experiences a kind of Machine Empathy. She finds lamps and table fans to be more aesthetically pleasing than flowers are, for example. She also finds certain appliances "cute". She would probably consider a place like Aperture Science to be the Garden of Eden).
As said below, Vera's inability get pregnant might lead to some drama (though, to me it seems like a no-brainer, both the problem and the solution).
They cannot legally get married. The local megacorp fears that legalizing marriage with a robot would imply that robots are people, which would cause a whole slew of problems for both them and society at large.
What do they want?: Romantically, they want to start a family. This is a little complicated by the fact that Vera can't get pregnant.
Other things to note: This is actually a sideplot. The actual plot involves fighting Dirty Communists armed with unholy powers.
Resolution: They do get married eventually, and they do form their family (they adopt the Tag Along Kid of the five-man band. The other characters take on familial roles, so to speak, such as uncle or grandfather).
edited 26th Jul '15 1:09:36 PM by Protagonist506
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
The reason Kat changed was because Drew taught her that she was more than just Kross's weapon, that she was her own person. Because of this, Drew became her first real friend. On the other end, Kat supported Drew when he was grieving over his mentor and father-figure's death, as well as his best friend's defection to the villains.
The two have a very Fire-Forged Friends type romance to them, like, Kat teaches Drew martial arts, for instance, they fight in many battles alongside one another, and sometimes, they're the only real support for the other. For my story, the real tipping point that brings it from just friends to something romantic is when Drew's brother grievously wounds Kat to force Drew to undergo a rage-fueled werewolf transformation (this is the point when he also kills Drew's mentor). Another is probably when Drew forces Kat to feed on him so she doesn't die from sunlight, and she carries him back to a hospital so he doesn't die from blood loss.
Also, I wanted to be a bit ironic, for Kat, the reason she grows more human throughout the series is because she was a vampire. Had she never been infected, Kross wouldn't have tried to have her killed, which made her realize how disposable she and the rest of her comrades really were to him.
That's an interesting concept, nice to see a different tone from the really dark dramatic stuff throughout the thread, it sounds more like a rom-com to me with some dramatic elements. I like the little details on how even the main characters aren't immune from discrimination, despite being an...inter-organic? couple. One question...how does the robot have a sex drive and how do they get it on (only asking because these are general requirements for any form of attraction)?
Also seems like you intentionally tied it into interracial marriage and the recent gay marriage issue, nice way to tie it into real social context.
edited 23rd Jul '15 7:43:39 PM by OmniGoat
This shall be my true, Start of Darkness
RE: Lewis and Vera
Reading your description I have a good idea of who Vera is and think that she has the potential to be a very interesting character. You haven't really posted enough on Lewis though, for me to get a feel for who he is, or even what he's doing in the relationship. What attracts him to Vera? For that matter, what attracts her to him?
I can tell you you've got one excellent character, but not much about the relationship feels to me.
These two are from an Urban Fantasy story I was working on, but abandoned last year. I'm considering doing some work on it again, but am curious as to what others have to say about one of its two romance arcs.
Names: Chase Winfield and Cassandra (Cassie)
Who are they? Chase is dhampir who ran away from home at the age of five or so after realising that his vampire mother was planning to use him as part of a World Domination plot. He eventually tracked down his half-sister Gracie, and ever since the two have been on the run, one step ahead of his mother's hunting parties. Since Chase doesn't have a birth certificate or any other proof of his existence (having been born after his mother was in the ground), he's been forced to take work as a monster hunter, using the money to put Gracie through university, so that she can get a good paying job and the two of them can build an actual life. A six foot eight inch aficionado of guns and clubs, Chase is sarcastic, self-deprecating, and possessed of hard-left political views that his non-living status prevents him from being able to act on.
Cassandra is eleven foot five inch cyclops who lives in Chase and Gracie's basement. Too large to ever go out in public, she spends most of her time religiously watching soap operas, imagining having a life in the outside world, and crushing on Chase. She's about as sweet and bubbly as a carnivorous giant can be, and is Gracie's best and closest friend. Appearance wise picture a very tall, very pretty blonde who likes to wear dresses made out of curtains, had one long-lashed green eye in the middle of her forehead, and a shy smile that would be adorable were it not for row after row of shark-like teeth.
How did they meet? Chase and Gracie found Cassandra living behind a slaughterhouse and eating the waste meat that was thrown away. At the time Chase was 10, Gracie 7, and Cassie 6 (and already pushing six feet tall). They took her in and for a while, dressed her up and had her pretend to be their mother whenever they needed to check into a hotel, or rent an apartment. She's since grown far too large for that, so they pay her back by keeping her in the enormous basement of their new home (purchased with cash from a particularly awful, but lucrative, exterminating job).
What Is The Status Of The Relationship When The Story Begins? Cassie has been in love with Chase for years now. The crush has waxed and waned but never gone away, mostly because he's the only guy she regularly interacts with. Chase for his part, cares about Cassandra a lot, and spends a great deal of time in her company, cooking for her, talking about his jobs, and letting her prattle on about TV plots he could not possibly care less about. Gracie, for the record, knows about Cassie's crush and has tried to encourage her, but the cyclops is just too shy and anxious to do anything about it yet.
Problems? Chase simply isn't registering Cassandra as a possible sexual partner/girlfriend, or even, for that matter, noticing that she's interested in him. Part of this is because Chase has exactly zero experience with dating, partly because she's his little sister's best friend, and mostly, of course, because she's an eleven foot tall member of a different species and that she even could be interested in him that way is going, pardon the pun, over his head. Cassie, for her part, is far too self-conscious about what she is—and especially her size—to push the issue, while Gracie—who honestly wishes they'd just figure it out—is too circumspect, and too good a friend, to tell Chase without Cassie's permission.
Resolution? Somebody needs to tell Chase how Cassie feels. Once they do, his own strong liking for the girl will do the rest. My question is, who should it be? Gracie? Cassandra herself? An outsider?
She is physically capable of sexual relationships. Her body was probably either modified from an off-the-shelf bot that had it as a side feature, or she decided to upgrade herself with it.
She has a reason for pursuing and enjoying sexual/romantic relationships, but I was thinking of playing with the angle of her not having a human-like sex drive per say. I was thinking perhaps her sex-drive might be more of a Sense Freak thing (she likes touching people). Also, I was thinking she might find the notion of a gentleman (Lewis being very much a gentleman) being attracted to her appealing (to someone from a servant class, a guy who buys you flowers and opens doors for you would certainly be appealing).
You're certainly right about Lewis. I should flesh his role out in this relationship more. I'll get right on that, tomorrow or so.
I guess I'll try my hand at this. This is the "main" couple from my story Archmage Reborn.
Who Are They?:: Veil is a soft-spoken but confident young man who belongs to the city of Evermerry's River Clan. Because he is the heir to its main family, he is destined to never leave the walls and instead help maintain its waterways for the rest of his life. He resents this lack of freedom but is very proud of his family and tries his best to uphold its values. Because he inherited the Empathic Weapon of the setting's Crystal Dragon Jesus he is thrust outside the city on a whirlwind adventure. Because of his sheltered lifestyle he is quite naive, though he has a general grasp of how the world outside works, if not its details and nuances.
Mia is a sword-for-hire who works for a large mercenary guild. She is an Erzarian, a feared Proud Warrior Race thought to have vanished with their homeland a thousand years ago. Mia is cold and often impatient with others, harshly criticizing their shortcomings, though she is just as merciless with herself. She is very Social Darwinist, though not entirely without pity for others. Unbeknownst to anyone, Mia is one of two human containers for the "Keys" that allow magic to function in the world, and fled her hidden homeland to avoid being kept there like a guarded treasure.
edited 10th Jul '15 11:42:21 PM by Swordofknowledge
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace