Misused: Shadow Archetype

I was browsing through tropes when I found this page. I may be missing something, but to me, it seems like the Shadow Archetype page seems like it is being misused rather badly.

The trope is about a character that embodies something that a character doesn't like about themselves, things they try to deny or hide; a good example being the shadows in Persona 4. Now, I may be taking the trope to literially because of the shadow examples, but as the trope description for them goes...

• all the main characters, except the Heroic Mime lead, encounter their inner Shadow Archetype at one point. These shadow archetypes follow the Jungian archetype and represent whatever the characters may have repressed. They will loudly exclaim these repressed feelings to the world, and do not take kindly to being denied. Accepting and embracing the flaws the shadow archetypes represent is how the party members obtain their persona, another call-out to Jung.

However, from what I'm reading, most people seem to think this means:

• ''X' character who is similar to 'Y' character, but with a major difference!'

Or;

• ''X' character fits because s/he's the complete opposite of 'Y'!'

Some examples of this include...

• Samurai Jack: There is also The Scotsman. Like Jack he is a frighteningly skilled wandering warrior with no name, an enchanted sword, and is talented in a plethora of fighting techniques. However in contrast he is rude, boisterously loud, shows little respect to his enemies, and could really use a shower and a toothbrush. In a rare example they're both good guys and become allies after a 24-hour battle and a quick fight with some bounty hunters.

This does not fit the trope description. Rather, it fits both the 'like 'X' character, but with 'Y's difference!'. Never once do we see Jack trying to repress feelings of wanting to be loud and rude, and is rather annoyed by characters like that that.

• My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic: Both Gilda and Lightning Dust are just as competitive and self-centered as Rainbow Dash, but with none of her Undying Loyalty, being straight Jerk Jocks (and a borderline-sociopath who crosses the Moral Event Horizon with an uncaring smile and pride, in the latter's case) instead of Rainbow's Jerk with a Heart of Gold.

Again, ''X' character BUT WITH 'Y' DIFFERENCE!' Rainbow Dash isn't ashamed of being a bit of a competitive or boastful. A better example would be a character that embodies her insecurities with preforming in crowds, of which none had been on the show, but I digress.

• If his name wasn't a dead enough giveaway, Shadow the Hedgehog represents this for the eponymous main character. Specifically, Shadow is what Sonic would be if he was willing to go through some extremes to get the job the done.

Having part of the trope name in their name does not make them an example. Again, ''X' character but with 'Y' DIFFERENCE!'. Also two tons more emo and an overly tragic backstory, but I digress again.

• In Pokémon Special, Lance is this to Yellow. Both were born in Viridian Forest, and both have the power to heal pokemon and listen to their thoughts. While Yellow is a pacifistic Friend to All Living Things who just wants everyone to live in peace as a result of this, Lance is a brutal Well-Intentioned Extremist who plans to wipe out all of humanity because he believes Pokémon and humanity to be completely incompatible with each other. (And when they clash? Good. Lord.)

Again, ''X' character BUT WITH 'Y' DIFFERENCE!'

• In Haruhi Suzumiya, the title character and Kyon are shadows of each other - Haruhi is the Daydream Believer that Kyon keeps locked away in his mind, and Kyon is the rational aspect of Haruhi that she tries to ignore.

This fits the ''X' is completely different from 'Y'!' misuse I stated above.

Also, doing a wick check, there's also a surprising amount on other pages as well.

• Bob's Burgers: He's (Jimmy) everything that Bob is not. While he's successful, he's also divorced, petty, disconnected from his kids, a sexual deviant, and a lousy cook. The few things he has in common with Bob is a penchant for puns and the fact that they both run restaurants and have kids.

Again, ''X' is completely different from 'Y'! I also question how well this trope applies to animated sitcom.

• Batman: The Brave and the Bold: Besides being a Zero Context Example, the character it's referring to (Owlman) is a Mirror Universe Evil Counterpart to Batman, which doesn't fit this trope, really.

• Dead Space: {Nolan is this) To Isaac. Isaac and Stross were both brought to the same colony and suffer from similar delusions under the Marker's influence. However, Isaac accepts his girlfriend's death and stays sane, while Stross let's his guilt consume him.

Again, ''X' character BUT WITH 'Y' DIFFERENCE!'

And so on and so forth. Again, I may be taking the example literally from the shadows in Persona 4, so before I likely embarrass myself because of that, at least take my two cents into consideration: A Shadow Archetype should at least have the character acknowledge the character who is suppose to be their archetype of their repressed emotions is something their guilty of deep down too, even if they don't show it. Characters who fall into what I consider misuse as stated above shouldn't fit this trope.

Similarities but a major difference, or just being completely different from one another, shouldn't fit this trope. If they don't acknowledge it in someway, or it's even hinted at In-Universe, then it's not a Shadow Archetype in my mind.

edited 13th Feb '15 9:03:10 AM by TokoWH

Oh, good lord. That's horribly misused.

This sound like a cleanup job; looking at the page, the definition is fairly clear; the bad example appear to be editors who either haven't paid attention to the definition, or Entry Pimping shoehorns.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I feel like we should also mention that most actual examples are usually acknowledged In-Universe, even if it isn't limited to In Universe Examples Only. Since it's usually a major plot point when it pops up, that may help cut down on the rampant accidental misuse.

Does this need discussion, or should we just move it straight to Final Action and clean the examples/wicks?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I feel like the description could be a bit clearer. It lists tropes that could overlap with it, but I feel like that gives the wrong impression of what the trope is about, and why there are so many misused examples.

I could probably write a better description that gives a better idea of what the trope is about, with the tropes listed there being mentioned at the end. Stuff like Classic Villain, Contrasting Sequel Main Character, and Evil Counterpart, while could possibly overlap, are possibly why there's so many 'like 'X', but with 'Y' difference' misused example on the page.

I feel like special mention should be made for those that, while they can overlap, it is by no means a requirement. Might not completely cut down on possible future misuse, but I feel that at the least it would help in that regard.

Things that I noticed:

• This trope is partly a psychology trope, dealing with the character's inner thoughts
• This trope isn't limited to the heroes, so bad guys may have their own "shadow" that is good
• this is also a plot trope about said character embracing their "shadow", accepting their inner self as part of themselves. (May be optional)

Am I getting it right?

MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW

That's what I got from it.

That's it, in a nutshell.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Continued Denial of said inner self will almost always cause the person to jump off the deep end in some form of Self Destructing way.

Also, "shadow" doesn't have to be morality, but that's the easiest way to construct it.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Sorry if I'm a bit slow to reply. I'm a tad bit busy at the moment.

I'll see if I can try writing a better description soon. In the meantime, at the very least, cleanup is really needed on the page and on it's wicks too.

Sorry this took so long! Either way, rewrote the description as to how I view this trope, in hopes that it would help clear up confusion in the future.

---

Explain Shadow Archetype here.

No problem! I got this! Leave it to me! ^* Do I really have too? I'm no good at writing trope descriptions. I'd much rather be playing a game, and I'm going to make damn sure myself knows that!

Shadow Archetype is a specific type of trope dealing with a characters inner feelings given form. In essence, it can be closely linked to the Stepford Smiler trope. On the surface, they may seem cool, calm, and collected, but deep down their repressing their true emotions, and most of the time... said emotions are rarely ever happy about that.

While the more straight forward example of this trope would usually follow the Jungian archetype of this trope, in which the repressed emotions are given form, they do not always have to be this way. For example, there can be a normal character who represents the emotions the other character represses, but in order for it to qualify, said character usually acknowledges this In-Universe. Additionally, since there's a common misconception over what a Shadow Archetype is, please read the following before adding an example.

A Shadow Archetype isn't the following:

• 'Like 'X' character, but WITH A MAJOR DIFFERENCE!' That's usually reserved for The Rival, which does not automatically qualify it for this trope.
• X' is completely different from 'Y', so it has to be this trope!' While it could possible overlap, being completely different does not automatically qualify it for this trope. This is only qualified if'' X acknowledges that Y represents a lot of emotions they repress In-Universe.

Similarly, while these Tropes can overlap, being one of these tropes does not automatically qualify it for this trope! As above, X must acknowledge this In-Universe for it to qualify.

• Classic Villain
• Contrasting Sequel Main Character
• The Cowl to The Cape
• The Dark Magical Girl to the Magical Girl heroine
• Enemy Within
• Enemy Without
• Evil Counterpart
• Evil Twin
• Jekyll & Hyde
• Some Psycho Rangers to the Five-Man Band
• Some, but not all Superpowered Evil Sides
• Anti Heroic Shadows also tend to be cast as The Lancer or The Rival to The Hero. More villainous Shadows often become The Dragon, though rarely the Big Bad. Naturally, not all Lancers, Rivals, and Dragons are Shadows.

A common theme involves the Self accepting their Shadow, metaphorically coming to terms with their flaw. That is, The Hero refuses to kill the Shadow, given the opportunity, or outright refuses to fight it. In Enemy Within, Enemy Without, and Evil Twin situations, the Self and Shadow sometimes even merge towards the end for an endgame powerup, further emphasizing the symbolism.

Note that in Jungian psychology, the Shadow Archetype includes positive as well as negative things, anything suppressed or denied in the personality. You seldom have such manifestations in fiction, which sticks to Shadow Is Dark, and Dark Is Evil.

Also, as if it wasn't stated enough already, this trope is usually acknowledged In-Universe. While it doesn't need to be to qualify, please keep this in mind while adding examples.

---

Honestly, I feel like there are a few tropes listed in the overlap that really don't overlap most of the time. I was debating removing a few of them since I feel it might be a reason this trope is being misused, but felt I should still keep them in just incase...

edited 24th Feb '15 7:44:28 AM by TokoWH

No, that definition is significantly worse. The most the current definition needs is maybe a sentence or two clarifying that it's largely a psychological trope and that it's not simply a character who is a Foil to another. Plus, you should never blatantly tell someone how to write an example in the description; that's an indication of a weak definition. Just clean up the misuse so people stop seeing wrong examples and assuming the trope is something it's not.

Rocks fall, everyone miraculously survives.

And no self demonstrating please...

If anything, the description is more confusing then it was before.

Alright, so just clean up for now. If it ends up becoming a problem again, I feel like a new description is needed. If nothing else, at least having the tropes that can overlap not listed in bullet points, but rather handle it like most trope pages do 'see/compare' at the end of their description. I feel like that's what's contributing to the misuse the most.

That I can agree with. Rewrite that bullet list as a "Can, but doesn't always, overlap with..." paragraph.

Rocks fall, everyone miraculously survives.

Clock is set.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

So have the edits been applied? What about the misuses?

MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW

Maybe we should have a similar Trope that is what people think Shadow Archetype is, with an I Thought It Meant disclaimer at the top of both pages, and then just split them. Seems there's enough erroneous examples to justify it.

Proposal:

---

The Shadow Archetype is the "shadow" of a character's personality (or the "Self"), everything that the Self dislikes about themselves, the parts of their personality that they try to hide. It can also be applied to settings, which are a related trope called Shadowland, where everything negative about a place is shown in stark relief.

Jungian psychology does not limit the Shadow Archetype to negative emotions/traits. Positive and negative traits apply, anything that is suppressed or denied by the Self is the definition of the Shadow. You seldom have such manifestations in fiction, which sticks to Shadow Is Dark, and Dark Is Evil. In fiction, a Foil must be introduced to embody the things the character denies about themselves, and usually the character is a hero, who denies villainous traits.

A common theme involves the Self accepting their Shadow, metaphorically coming to terms with their flaw. That is, The Hero refuses to kill the Shadow, given the opportunity, or outright refuses to fight it. In Enemy Within, Enemy Without, and Evil Twin situations, the Self and Shadow sometimes even merge towards the end for an endgame powerup, further emphasizing the symbolism.

Sometimes, the realization that the Shadow is part of the Self comes with a Not So Different declaration from one to the other.

---

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I have a question? Could a Useful Notes/ page on Shadow Archetype (or Jungian physiology in general) help curb the misuse?

I dunno. Is the latter frequently referenced in fiction?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Sorry for disappearing on this. Things got a bit busy here for me.

I personally like the proposed description rewrite. I also think a useful notes page would help cut down on misuse as well. Most actual Shadow Archetypes usually fall into the Jungian side, so that may help.

The trope is often used to mean a villain who has similar traits to the hero but they are turned to evil. The hero's victory over the villain represents his better side rising up over his flaws. Should this be under Evil Counterpart instead?

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

I think its important to note that the key is not the difference between the two, but the things that they share. The shadow isn't the mirror opposite of a character, but an similar-yet-different counterpart reflecting their secret fears, desires, flaws, inner conflicts, and untapped strengths.

• The Martial Pacifist finally calls out the Blood Knight for his excessively violent nature- who fires back by pointing out that a man devoted to peace shouldn't be cracking jokes after a good fight. (I realize the moment is Not So Different, its just to illustrate the "denying part of him enjoys it" thing)
• The Knight in Shining Armor struggles to deal with the fact that he agrees with all of the things that the Knight Templar stands for, and that he has sometimes wanted to do some of the things that the templar does. He questions whether his adherence to chivalry is a weakness holding him back.
• A Motherly Scientist and The Engineer create a group of sapient robots. The scientist feels guilty when she finds herself thinking of them as machines, the engineer chastises himself when he finds himself forgetting that they are machines.

Basically its all about the fact that two characters are radically different in important ways...but at their core, they're Not So Different after all.

edited 10th May '15 12:14:01 PM by Scorpion451