Away on the wind~
I'm going to throw my support behind this too. I really don't see why we need this page here at all.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
SURPRISE
Thirding this in that it seems to be more relegated to Fetish Fuel, which, as we know, got purged. Also, pretty fanwanky.
edited 15th May '11 1:52:14 AM by Jackerel
Was Jack Mackerel. | i rite gud
Curtain Call
Why the fuck is Incest Yay still around anyway?
Well, I hate to break it to you, but there is no "big lie", there is no "system". The universe is indifferent.
Cut.
edited 15th May '11 2:08:07 AM by SpellBlade
Dreaming out loud.
Ditto.
Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure Science.
Okay, I'll move it.
I don't agree that this is the same as Fetish Fuel. It's examples of subtext. People are pointing out because they think it's being shown in the work, not because they personally find it appealing to themselves. There are going to be some elements of appeal to fans because every trope has this, but that's not the main cause.
I wonder how many of the naysayers have watched the show (particularly the movie). Saying that there's incestuous subtext in this show is like saying there's homosexual subtext in Gundam Wing.
I moved it to Fetish Fuel Wiki anyways, just to be safe. It needs more love anyways.
But why would you move it to someplace it doesn't belong "just to be safe"? We don't put Ho Yay on Fetish Fuel, and this is basically the same thing, only with incest instead of homosexuality.
Edit: The main difference between this and Ho Yay is simply that a lot more series have homosexual subtext than have incestuous subtext. Oh, and more people find it creepy. But then, I find a lot of things done by shows creepy—but they're still done by the shows and still deserve mention.
And Fetish Fuel "needs more love' because the way it is set up makes for a bad user interface for actually sending people there, and user interface design has a huge influence on when and how something gets used. It is never going to leave the "needs more love" state until we can link to it from the main pages, which we can't.
edited 15th May '11 8:31:38 PM by arromdee
Except in most places (lots of Western cultures), incest is consider more Squickier than homosexuality. Besides, look how long in took someone to take the defensive side of this argument.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
This. Also, homosexuality could lead to STDs like heterosexuality, but incest could lead to way Squickier heights, like genetic problems...
edited 15th May '11 8:32:53 PM by chihuahua0
Incest and homosexuality are in no way equal.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
They aren't "equal" in the sense that they're not equally good/bad. But the argument's not about being good/bad—it's that they're in the original work, and therefore aren't fetish fuel. You don't have to like homosexuality to say that Gundam Wing has Ho Yay in it, and you don't have to like incest to point out that Wizards Of Waverly Place has Incest Yay. Whether liking those is right or wrong is beside the point.
And plenty of shows contain things that are as bad as incest, but which don't merit cutting. We'd never prohibit anyone from saying that Birth Of A Nation has pro-KKK subtext and relegate that to Fetish Fuel on the grounds that being pro-KKK is creepy. It's not the viewer who's being pro-KKK, it's the film.
Also, previous thread:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=m62iyz0ii0k50s4v55i48bwe
It just doesn't make sense for Incest Yay to be in Fetish Fuel while the other Yay tropes are on the main wiki (whether as YMMV or not).
edited 15th May '11 8:51:44 PM by arromdee
cut fanwank, keep analysis of subtext
There is no subtext once the fanwank is cut.
Also! Now that it's been moved, can we get rid of it on this site, please?
edited 15th May '11 10:17:12 PM by EnglishIvy
Away on the wind~
I've seen the show looking for this, and I agree, there's maybe two examples that could be counted as actual subtext.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Definitely cut this. Issues of squick aside, I don't think this site is the place for ship manifestos. I mean, no other pairing has an entire page devoted to analyzing the subtext between them, does it? There are lots of other places on the internet for people to do that if they want to.
I don't know anything about the show, but it's a Disney series, right? Then I seriously doubt there is any subtext in it other then what the "fans" want to see.
However, I should note that it's been established that "creepy and disgusting" is not a reason to cut a trope - otherwise I'd have axed both Token Loli and the entire Rape Tropes index long before. If - unlikely as it seems - there is genuine, non-fanwanked subtext in the show, then the page should not be cut. I'm not sure how that could be proven, though.
"Creepy"
Oh ffs, not again. Just put this page back already.
Every few months or so there's always one person who sees this page and gets squicked out enough to cause a fuss about it and try to get it deleted. The point has already been made, Incest Yay is not strictly fetish fuel, it's a trope. This shouldn't be a discussion.
This particular page isn't a trope, it's a fetish fuel page. And since it's been moved, it can be cutlisted here.
"it's a fetish fuel page"
Thank you for your opinion, but it's not. Find an example of someone expressing delight from something on this page, in any way, then make that claim.
There's no more natter on this page than there is on most Getting Crap Past the Radar pages.
edited 16th May '11 2:08:29 AM by SoRiku
Away on the wind~
Point me towards any other work with an entire page dedicated to one ship.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
There's a difference between getting rid of a page because it doesn't fit, and attempting to get rid of a page because it makes you uncomfortable. The latter is what's going on right now, clearly.
Look at ANY of the other 'Yay' pages, you'll find nothing different here. There's blatant prejudice going on against this page, and if we start scrapping all the pages people are uncomfortable with, T Vtropes would barely exist.
And @ above: this isn't a shipping page; I monitor this page as well as the other Wizards Of Waverly Place sections to make sure that type of fanwank isn't squeezed in anywhere. Most of the Incest Yay in this show goes on between two people, and if there's any instances where it happened with anyone else, it would go here as well. I'm pretty sure there are one or two examples that aren't the 'ship' you're referring to, actually.
edited 16th May '11 2:26:13 AM by SoRiku
Away on the wind~
- A lot of the undertones can be blamed on the fact that when the show was first being pitched, Justin was intended to be in a group with Harper and Alex as Two Girls and a Guy, and Alex and Justin were meant to be the Slap-Slap-Kiss couple.
- Heavily Lampshaded in Family Game Night where Alex and Harper (who has a serious crush on Justin) switch bodies and "Alex" spends the episode being blatantly jealous of Justin's girlfriend and making remarks about how dreamy his eyes are.
- Don't forget Justin, who attempts to get rid of his clingy girlfriend by flirting with Harper's brain, that is in Alex's body, resulting in Justin grabbing Alex's hip and wiggling his eyebrows at her, muttering seductively "Hey, Harper. Come on in".
- Or that Alex constantly smiles at him, fluttering her eyes, looks enthusiastically at his hand when he touches her and permanently compliments him, making lovey-dovey faces.
- This could also be a serious case of UST between the actors that play the characters (which wouldn't be unprecedented).
- The actors have◊ a◊ really◊ close◊ friendship◊, so this might have affected their characters' relationship as well.
- Selena Gomez(Alex Russo) has admitted in a recent interview that she has in fact had a crush on David Henrie(Justin Russo).
- The actors have
- Or in another episode where Harper and Justin become friends and Alex spends the episode trying to break them up. Apparently she's jealous of Justin spending time with her best friend but it really comes off as Alex being jealous of Harper spending time with him (and the fact that Alex is fully aware of the crush does not help matters).
- What takes the cake is the episode Justin's Little Sister, in which Alex accidentally wished that everyone forgot who Justin was, so everyone thinks of him as a complete stranger. Cue Alex and Justin's own mother saying that they would make a cute couple. That is definitely Getting Crap Past the Radar.
- Or Harper(who has a crush on Justin) getting mad at Alex because Justin has already moved to Alex's house, thinking that Alex has convinced him to do that because she tries to become Justin's girlfriend.
- In the same episode, Justin becomes invisible and he takes off his pajamas, so that he could become completely invisible. While he's in the room with Alex. And despite of the fact that he tells her not to look, she still peeks over her shoulder, before guiltily looking away.
- Not to mention the fact that the reason Justin told her not to look in the first place is because he noticed Alex's eyes were clearly going south as soon as he took off his pants. She definitely seemed curious...
- Another line:
- In Fashion Week, Alex, in a mini dress, parades in front of her mirror and Justin walks in, looking as if he checks her out. They argue (as usual), she pushes a tray of food on him and he gets revenge by spinning her around and pressing their bodies together so that he can mess up her dress. Because that's how a brother would get revenge on his little, hot sister, who is dressed in a mini, If You Know What I Mean.
- In The Movie, the producers seem to constantly insert incestuous double entendres into the more heartwarming scenes. Or perhaps, they have actually forgotten that Justin and Alex are supposed to be brother and sister... Or they returned to their first idea. (Justin and Alex were originally supposed to be best friends, not brother and sister. The script was changed later).
- What The Buck hilariously lampshades and points out the subtext in his review.
- This line breaks the record:
- What The Buck
Justin: You're my little sister. I shouldn't be on you as much.
- Some moments from The Movie left many people baffled and created several controversies and debates within the fandom. The most ambiguous one is the campfire scene between Alex and Justin, which left many fans wondering about the nature of their relationship. The second one is the scene where Justin loses his memory and Alex becomes desperate and begs him not to leave her, to which he replies that he will never do that, even though he doesn't know her, implying that their love is so strong, that even the memory loss can't stand in its way.
- In reference to the campfire scene, this troper watched the movie, and even though she knew they were brother and sister, she still thought they might kiss.
- "Quinceanera". Never minding the fact that Justin switched his body with a 30 years old dance instructor, or that Alex switched bodies with her mother, Justin's lines couldn't get any weirder, when he started dancing with his younger sister:
Alex: Okay, that's really weird.
- Or:
Alex: (smiling) Really?
Justin: I've got you, baby.
- A WoWP staple, whenever their characters switch bodies or they pretend to be someone they're not, Justin and Alex always end up flirting.
- In the recent episode, Franken Girl, Justin is really eager to make Alex a cheerleader (as revenge, of course) and he is extremely, quite suspiciously happy when she appears dressed as one (*cough* in a very short skirt *cough*) and starts dancing. He even video tapes her and yells enthusiastically: "Yeah, that's my sister!"
- The camera (his, not the show's) follows her when the titular Frankengirl throws her up in the air and she gets stuck in the ceiling. Um, yeah...
- In one episode, instead of throwing snarky comments, they growl at each other. Seriously.
- And no, it's not just a simple one-shot growl, it's an increasingly violent growl-a-thon until Alex is so angry she can't stand to be in the same room as him.
- In general, have you noticed that any time one of them gets a boyfriend/girlfriend, the other starts acting really jealous?
- Yeah, especially that time when Alex asks Justin and Max what they found out from her journal and Justin answers hotly and fiercely that he knows she has a crush on Dean. And later, he even yells at her to get over him.
- Or when Alex tries to warn Justin that his girlfriend is a dog and he replies, smug and satisfied, that she doesn't like the fact that he is falling in love.
- In Max's Secret Girlfriend, Alex snarkily tells Justin that all his girlfriends have been so embarrassing, that they surpassed even their own parents.
- In another episode Alex mentions that she has never liked any of Justin's girlfriends, but she can make an exception just for Juliet and that's probably because Justin is serious about her, whereas every time Max has a girlfriend she is really happy for him.
- In the episode where Mason betrays Alex, Justin is the only one from Alex's family who is extremely turned against him and gets angry every time he comes near her. Mason notices this as well:
Justin: That's where you're right. You and I are not cool. (getting angrily in his face) Now back away from my sister.
Alex: (pushing him scared) Justin, it's okay!
- There's another funny exchange of lines:
Alex: You don't know what goes in my mouth.
- In a live chat, the creator answers some fan questions and he finds one that doesn't surprise him at all:
- Thus he answered with non-denial denial.
- He got so used to Jalex, that he even joked about it later, stating that if he ever ran out of ideas, he would do a whole season of Jalex-filled episodes.
- Thus he answered with non-denial denial.
- Season 3, episode Dollhouse. Alex is wearing a cute, fifties-style doll dress. She eagerly jumps into Justin's arms. He hugs her so tightly that she cries "Ooh, Justin, you're hurting me!". He makes a 'mmm' sound, sounding really satisfied. In the end, Justin releases her and tells her, "Yeah, I do feel better now, thank you." She smiles. Whoah, innuendo much?
- Not to mention it happens after she deliberately and explicitly provokes him into a fight, including the line "There's the fight I was looking for!", said happily which leads to the above scene. Because make up...hugging is so much better.
- That's what Disney calls safe sex, through the radar. Found here, at about 7:40, for those of you who are curious. Try watching with your eyes closed for added effect.
- What makes it even worse better is that you can clearly see through the dress that Alex is not, in fact, wearing a bra.
- In the new episode Wizard Vs Werewolves, both the main love interests for each are pretty much Put on a Bus to Hell, and the episode ended with a suggestive exchange between the two.
Alex: No. He loved me.
Justin: And I found her...only to lose her again.
Alex: Promise me we'll find normal people.
Justin: We're not normal people...
(cue adorable headleaning)
- The promos both Disney and Family Channel (in Canada) put out are all very centered on Justin/Alex. One of the recent promos for the aforementioned episode, Wizard Vs Werewolves, featured Alex leaning on his shoulders (to a voice over that said "relationships will be tested," no less), Justin fighting her boyfriend to protect her, and Ship Sinking all their canon relationships, including one the Peter Murrieta said was the love of Justin's life.
- One episode has Alex and Justin transported into a horror movie. Their parents get at the cinema and hear two guys mention that Alex and Justin in the movie have ''such chemistry''. Their parents' eyes widen in terror when they hear it, and only after they play the laughs, the guys go on to say "it's like they grew up together".
- In the episode 'Eat To The Beat', Justin tells Alex "dance with me" and grabs her when a jazz band is playing. This is Played for Laughs, naturally, and Alex rejects him because she was mad, also Played for Laughs.
- In 'Third Wheel', Justin uses magic to transform himself into Alex. This results in Alex!Justin wearing Justin's clothing.
- And the Unfortunate Implications visit the show again.
Justin in Alex's body: Because...I'm a dirty little thief.
- In Western Show, Justin innocently names his horse Scout. What does Alex decide to name her horse (as she's riding it)? Justin.
- Cue "Alex is riding Justin" jokes.
- And, on top of all this, Justin and Alex have recently proven in Max's Secret Girlfriend that they have no problem in pretending to be husband and wife and have three kids.
- To elaborate further, Alex comes up with the plan, asking Justin to pretend to be Max's father and her husband. Justin replies with "Why should I?" Alex pretty much responds by saying "Because all your other girlfriends were embarrassing." To which Justin agrees and goes along with her plan.
- Also of note, there were no suggestions of anyone else potentially pretending to be Max's parents. Harper was there, she could have happily pretended to be married to Justin; heck, they could have gotten two random people off the street and put spells on them. It's hard to not think the writers do these things just for the Justin/Alex shippers.
- To elaborate further, Alex comes up with the plan, asking Justin to pretend to be Max's father and her husband. Justin replies with "Why should I?" Alex pretty much responds by saying "Because all your other girlfriends were embarrassing." To which Justin agrees and goes along with her plan.
- In Delinquent Justin, Alex announces that she got Justin a present, at which point their parents flee the room in fear, accusing her of doing something destructive. After defending herself, Alex slowly walks up to Justin, muttering the following words in a quiet, seductive tone:
- Cue everyone's minds going straight to the gutter. This Troper feared they were finally crossing that line, and was scared to see what happened next.
- So what did happen next?
- Alex made a copy of him four years ago and sent it to college so Justin wouldn't have to leave her.
- Only this show could make a CMoH that also qualifies as a Crowning Moment of Incest Yay.
- Cue everyone's minds going straight to the gutter. This Troper feared they were finally crossing that line, and was scared to see what happened next.
Justin: We've had a lot of pretty good fights, huh? I think we've still got a few good ones left in us. (smirking) What do you think?
Alex: (smiling) I hope so...
- Pushed Up To Eleven at the end of the episode:
Alex and Justin (in unison): "NO, WE DON'T!" (both leap quickly away from one another to opposite sides of the couch)
- A scene that can be viewed in here, at 7:12.
- A scene that can be viewed in here
- Seen in Alex Russo, Matchmaker? Alex apparently sometimes uses magic to read Justin's thoughts. Can't you just hear the sound of a thousand fanfics being born?
-cue Alex's devilish (and satisfied) smile, that she always tends to put on whenever she's riled Justin up-
- There has been evidence that Justin finds girls similar in appearance to Alex attractive.
- In Season 1, Justin dates a rebellious girl who looks like she could be Alex's sister. Or twin, even.
- A magical talking zit even supports the idea, when it tells Alex that Justin goes out with a girl almost as pretty as her.
- Of special note, after Miranda caught Justin's attention, Alex dyed streaks into her hair exactly the same way Miranda's was. This is one of the earliest signs that Alex does things simply for Justin's attention.
- In Movies, Alex tries to make a fake ID to get into an R-rated movie with Justin and his new friends. Justin makes a comment about her fake ID just being some construction paper and cut out picture of that new weather girl he just called "hot" earlier in the episode, with the next thing he exclaims being "you went in my room without asking!"... For one, why would Justin already have a picture of her in his room? And two, does she really look that similar to Alex, or was she just using her image for other, more personal reasons? Either way...
- In Max's Secret Girlfriend, when Alex finally gets the chance to pretend to be Justin's wife, what does she name herself? Diane Sawyer. Famous TV newscaster and former weather girl. This conveniently and cleverly matches Max's 'Tom Sawyer' fake name.
- In Season 1, Justin dates a rebellious girl who looks like she could be Alex's sister. Or twin, even.
- In Alex In The Middle, Alex (anonymously) writes love notes to Justin and puts them in his locker. Granted, it was for a prank but aren't there better pranks that don't require writing love notes to your own brother?
- In a recent episode Back To Max, Maxine says nice and flattering things about Max to a girl he likes in an effort to win her over. It works, but consequently said girl believes Maxine has a crush on Max. The sentence before that, she mentioned they were cousins. Apparently Disney is so focused on Justin and Alex that any other incest innuendo slips right past the radar.
- In Captain Jim Bob Sherwood, Alex pulls off schemes again just to work with Justin on some comic book. Naturally, they constantly fight over everything, so, when they turn to their parents for advice, Theresa's answer is this:
- Then she carries on with something that ticks off Jerry, before they start to bicker just like a usual couple, in the same manner Justin and Alex do, which intends to show the fact that Justin and Alex's relationship is identical to those of married couples. This idea is even accentuated in Max's Secret Girlfriend, when Justin and Alex actually pretend to be married and do bicker like an usual couple.
- When Harper pretends to be Justin's ex-girlfriend, Juliet, so that she can help him move on, she tells him later the truth, that she is actually Harper who has taken Juliet's form, but Justin automatically assumes that she's actually Alex, implying the fact that it's normal for Alex to pose as her brother's girlfriend.*
Nope, it's all the one ship.
And... Yeah, I disagree that this isn't a shipping page.
... For my evidence, I present, well, the above.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
So. With all of the fetish fuel articles moving off of the wiki, why was this not sent packing, as well? It's really disturbing, and has no place on the site. It should be cut, immediately.