During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Dogen
Anthrax
Child murderer
Edited by KazuyaProta on Mar 31st 2020 at 11:38:41 AM
Watch me destroying my country
to Dogan and (tentatively) the Child Murderer
Add the great Yasuo Yamada to the list of actors who have both played and fought Complete Monsters, having voiced both The Man with No Name and Governor Wilhuff Tarkin (coincidentally, the original actor, Peter Cushing, also both played and fought Complete Monsters, having also done the former in the Hammer Frankenstein films and done the latter in Horror Express) in the respective Japanese dubs of the Dollars Trilogy and Star Wars.
Current mood: sick of your shit
Dogen, Anthrax, and the child killer
Lizzid people!
Tentative for the child killer and a for Anthrax
Dogen, Anthrax, and the child killer
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
"Nah, I think from hence on we're gonna have to litigate candidates by the standard of Spider-Man/Deadpool, as any grounded crime show should be."
Pfft, Spider-Man/Deadpool's standard has NOTHING on ''Criminal Minds'''s standard ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Oh, wait, you said GROUNDED
For Fortinbras, mention he's from the first and 4th game? Also, should Oda's entry be changed?
Mechanon; Anthrax; Dogan.
Yes, barely, to the child-killer.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Wilbur, Mordain, Vestus and Moriarty
Dogen, Anthrax and (tentatively) the child murderer.
—
So it's been two weeks since Eurogamer/Dicebreaker finished the latest arc of their current D&D campaign. I was thinking about nominating the Dinsdale lad, but it turns out his dad is The Man Behind the Man and most of the killings (held through "official" duels started on flimsy pretexts) were on his orders and actually designed to eliminate competition... I'm not sure he's heinous enough, especially for the second story alone. If anyone thinks I should still EP, cool, but otherwise I think I can write him off.
Edited by captainmarkle on Apr 1st 2020 at 2:53:15 AM
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Mechanon, Anthrax and Dogen. Weak to the child killer.
Goku Black
Dogen and Anthrax.
to Mechanon and Anthrax.
Mir: Yeah I guess its not an issue. Do they still need to be moved though?
Goku Black
I mean maybe If later they make it a thing to crossover regularly but I think for now it's fine to keep it separately.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yeah good point. I doubt that's going to happen, especially as they air on separate channels. Thank you.
Yes to Mechanon, the child killer, Anthrax, and Dogen.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Go for it.
Edited by falcontalons on Apr 1st 2020 at 4:32:32 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Which leads me to think, should the Chicago P.D. example be moved to the main TV page? Rausch is fine since that was a direct crossover.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Just move it out off the page. It's its own thing for the most part.
@G: Their a few guys I know off worth a shot.
Bob Clinton from the Chicago/ SVU crossover runs a child pornography ring.
Theirs also Adrian Gish , the serial arsonist.
I could do a few eps if you guys want?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Actually, it crossed over with SVU thrice and Fire with SVU once, so I THINK it's okay keeping it there.
I'll ask again: Should Oda's entry be rewritten since while Fortinbras WAS slain, he returned? Maybe make it "then-dead"? And I'm slotting Fortinbras at the top.
Edited by ACW on Apr 1st 2020 at 7:54:34 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Draftsman of Doom
In that case, I think it's safe to keep on the L&O page.
Once I am less busy with school work, Jackie and I are looking into New York Undercover.
I may or may not do an EP today.
Edit: Dogen, Anthrax, and the child killer.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 1st 2020 at 8:31:12 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Dogen, Anthrax, and the child killer.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
With the flashes of character cleared up I’ll say yes to the killer and yes to Dogen.
Yes to dogen. To get this done quickly...
What's the work?
Sherlock Holmes: Case of Evil is one of two upcoming Holmes themed EP's I have. The movie centers on Holmes, at the start of his career, tracking down his arch-foe Moriarty and shooting him dead. Moriarty's corpse falls into the water of the sewers and is never found....Holmes receives widespread acclaim, meeting Dr. Watson. The two investigate some mysterious deaths and Holmes begins to suspect Moriarty is not quite as dead as he had hoped...
Who is Moriarty?
Played with a huge helping of ham and cheese by Vincent D'Onofrio, Moriarty is a ruthless killer who also addicted Holmes' brother Mycroft to morphine as a spiteful gesture. Faking his death with a metal breastplate, Moriarty begins to murder multiple crime lords to take over their business, plotting to go into the morphine trade. Experimenting with the doses of morphine, Moriarty's ultimate scheme is to corner the drug market.
After multiple murders, Holmes uncovers Moriarty and is taken hostage, where Moriarty, being an egomaniac, reveals his true schemes: flood the market with his new specialized morphine. When Holmes points out the madness of relying on a legal product, Moriarty reveals he's going to alter the batches: see, a ton of people will overdose and die, and others will be addicted. The death toll will be so bad that Britain will have to make the drug illegal....and then he can jack the prices up for the addicts, corner the market and own a monopoly, becoming wealthy and powerful off all of the morphine. To experiment on a lethal dose? He injects Holmes with batches to torture him, leaving Holmes on an awful trip.
Holmes is rescued in time and recovers, tracking Moriarty down to stop him with the help of Watson and his lover, a prostitute/actress named Rebecca. Moriarty gives Holmes the slip and takes Rebecca hostage, gloating he wants Holmes to be subjected to a permanent living hell. After a short confrontation, he executes Rebecca in front of Holmes before setting to tortre Holmes to death. Watson intervenes and Holmes pursues Moriarty to Big ben, ending in a sword duel in the clock tower. Holmes impales Moriarty and hurls him out of the clock, plummeting to his death for good this time.
Mitigating Qualities?
Moriarty is a deranged egomaniac with a love of theatrics, but not a single good trait. He's incredibly nasty, to say the least and his schemes would cause a widespread array of death, nevermind how personal he gets with invoking fridging Rebecca.
Conclusion?
A new addition for the good professor.
Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 1st 2020 at 7:03:19 AM
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Moriarty.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Goku Black
Moriarty
Abstain on killer.
So, after putting this off for a while, here it is. My Dogen EP.
What's the work?
Senran Kagura is a series of Panty Fighter Beat 'em Up games with an anime and manga. It follows the shinobi, girls who are brought to do... secret mission stuff. There is a large cast of playable characters and such, naturally all-female for fanservice purposes. The shinobi are split up into good shinobi, who take legal contracts, and evil shinobi, who take illegal contracts.
So, the main plot, in terms of the timeline, initially concerns the schools of Hanzo and local Thug Dojo Hejibo going at war with each other. The second game has two new schools join in a battle royale, and the third game has a whole invasion plot at work. The man responsible for all three of these is our guy.
Who is Headmaster Dogen? What does he do?
Initially seen as just an investor of Hebijo, Burst, the first game, and Ninja Slash, The anima adaptation, reveals him to be the true mastermind of the conflict. He had manipulated the girls of Hebijo, who were once good shinobi that fell into hard times, into joining him. As Headmaster, he instills a brutal Training from Hell regime- to give an idea of how awful it is, his subordinates are seen in the anime stabbing some poor student with a shiruken or something just because she didn't stay submerged in the water long enough. Nobody helps her because Dogen has drilled into their heads that everyone should be out for themselves, friendship is useless, yadda yadda. So Dogen also takes in Rin, a particularly proud student of Hanzo, in after she fails a big mission. He saves her life, but even she admits he was just using her.
So, Dogen sends the girls to steal the Super Secret Ninja Scroll, which will give them a lot of power, from Hanzo. Of course, the resulting war between the dojos is but a smokescreen for his true goal- get as many shinobi killed as possible so he can feed them to Orochi, the local Eldritch Abomination (game)/the Yin and Yang scrolls (anime). Just to be sure the girls obey him, he puts a spell on them that basically allows him to kill them if they fail him. In the game, Homura realizes he's been playing them and kills him, but not before he feeds her four friends to Orochi (luckily, Homura gets them out). In the anime, all the girls fight and defeat him, so in frustration he activates a self-destruct button to destroy all of Hejibo, literally saying that he won't lose any sleep over the tons of people he'll be killing. Rin, the local Darth Vader Clone, echoes his redemption by sacrificing herself to kill the Palpatine-figure Dogen. (She actually makes it, though.)
Back to the game timeline. Though seemingly dead, Dogen somehow comes back. In Shinobi Versus, he retakes Hejibo, kidnaps the father of Miyabi to force her to work for him, then declares Homura and her squad traitors and starts a manhunt for them. He manipulates Gessen, a school of good shinobi, into fighting Hanzo Academy, starting the Battle Royale, in which the losing schools must be burned to the ground. In the Hejibo route, his girls win, but they end up turning against each other while he sits and watches. In the Crimson route, Homura confronts him and kills him again, but not before he kills Tsumuji, a friend of hers.
Finally, Deep Crimson has him return again, still in control of Hejibo. He begins unleashing the yoma, beings made of the despair of dead shinobi, and unleashes them to kill Homura and her friends while trying to guilt them for their mistakes. When they get to him, he reveals his plan- sell the yoma as weapons, make a bunch of money, cause wars, and when everyone is weak, swoop in with his yoma army and Take Over the World. Before fighting Homura, he eats a yoma fetus to power himself up, then tries to sic another yoma on her and Rin. He is killed.
So of course, he comes back again, because he is apparently immortal or something (his recoveries are never explained to my knowledge). He creates the yoma generals and has them invade Japan, causing mass chaos. His plan is to trick Kagura, the immortal woman whom the series is named after and whom is supposed to consume yoma, to consume enough yoma for the Reincarnation Sphere, her energy source, to gain a lot of power, so he can take the power for himself. Grandpa Hanzo, the founder of Hanzo Academy, fights him... and Dogen captures him, seemingly killing him. (Don’t worry, he comes back.) Asuka, The Heroine, and Homura face him one last time in an utterly brutal boss fight. He loses, summons some yoma and runs away, fuses with Orochi in a last attempt to win, is killed, world is saved, the end.
Heinousness?
Big Bad of the original trilogy, sets it. He is in a Big Bad Duumvirate with Orochi, but seeing as she and the other yoma are Made of Evil, they do not count. And just about every other 'villain' does nothing but attack the heroes, get beaten, and befriends them. Dogen is literally the only truly evil character. (Except Komichi, who has a grand total of one attempted murder). There is also Lady Fubuki, who tries to destroy all shinobi, but despite being a genuine villain, she is an Anti-Villain like the rest of them. Dogen is still the most evil. And for that role, mass-murder, Human Sacrifice, a bunch of attempted murder and extortion, taking a Thug Dojo and basically turning it into a cult... yeah, he passes the baseline.
Mitigating Qualities?
The only thing resembling a redeeming quality is that he once made a robot to sexually harass people online, but only verifiably legal ones. Of course, this is likely personal taste and trying not to get in TOO much trouble more than anything.
Also, I think he says at one point that he is simply trying to draw the yoma out so the shinobi can destroy them. If you have read the whole EP, you know that’s bs- he wants to control the yoma so he can conquer the world.
As for personality, he gets more than enough onscreen appearances to establish one. Granted, he is, to be honest, a typical, Take Over the World-style villain with not much going for him besides how evil and sadistic and megalomaniacal he is- I will admit that, unlike every other candidate I proposed who I found genuinely interesting, Dogen kinda bores me. That being said, he is not a Generic Doomsday Villain, at least according to the Tv Tropes definition. And I am sure we all have proposed candidates we found less-than-interesting.
Verdict?
Basically a male Kurara Tendo (except without the Faux Affably Evil personality that made her entertaining). Just glad to finally get him out of the way. Easiest keep I have ever proposed. Ever.
Edited by MasterN on Apr 1st 2020 at 7:47:07 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.