During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@Scraggle Yeah, gotta be honest... May 31st is my birthday so I wanted to change my pfp into something birthday related. So I came with this pfp...I like it btw :D The clown while crudely drawn is rather cute and I'm charmed by it. But too bad it'll be temporary for now and yes, I'm turning 19 this month. I felt rather young in here. 
As for birthday present, I think I'm cool if I check Detonator Orgun. Even if it doesnt have any keepers. Im cool with that
edited 30th May '18 7:49:42 PM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I am the King!
Xaviax is one hell of an Alien Bastard and much worse counterpart to Shiro Kanzaki. In other words, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Happy early birthday than. Clown pic huh ? That's just perfect...
All of the above. I'll take the word of what was said on Riverdale above. I don't really watch it but my sisters bananas over that show.
edited 30th May '18 7:58:40 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
The Unknown Unknown
Everyone above.
Yes to Manero.
So it has been two weeks since season fours finale of Gotham and as such time to talk about who stays, who goes and who's new. This season is subtitled A Dark Knight and among its many subplots that I don't know where to begin, sees Bruce Wayne much closer on his journey to become Batman, as well as reconciling what he is now that he got closure from his parents deaths (in other words a swinging douchebag millionaire trying to fill a hole). On the flipside, Batman's rouge gallery is in full swing and as such we got quite the mess with numerous Bait-and-Switch villains, but ultimately it boils down to a Big Bad Duumvirate between Ra's Al Ghul and The Joker.
Now among the returning villains, Hugo Strange stays, but doesn't do anything significant other than being hired out to preform a surgery and shows that he's gonna go back to his old tricks in the next season. As for new comers, I have been tempted to talk about Sofia Falcone, this season's Disc-One Final Boss, but as much as a Hate Sink she is, she doesn't really match up to the shows heinous standard in my book. Ra's is someone I have been tempted and considered talking about, but he's got redeeming qualities that feel too genuine or ambiguous, plus I'm not too familiar with the comic incarnation of Ra's to make a judgement on the character considering most of what I see of the character are in adaptions. If you anyone here disagrees on Ra's or Sofia or wants to take then off my hands be my guest, but I have my eye on twin prizes this season.
So let's talk about this other returning antagonist; Jerome Valeska.
Yes, as to be expected Jerome returns after being sent to Arkham Asylum back in season 3 and effectively runs the inmates there as their leader. He doesn't really do anything significant until late into the season though, but is reintroduced when Sofia frames Oswald Cobblepott for killing a child. Oswald is sent to Arkham where he meets Jerome who pesters and subjects him to some humiliating tasks to try to drive Oswald insane. Oswald later escapes after learning of Jerome's plans later this season.
Jerome puts his plans into action, launching and leading an escape from Arkham, alongside Jonathan Crane aka The Scarecrow and Jervis Tetch aka The Mad Hatter. Havoc is wrecked on the city, mainly thanks to the Mad Hatter, but it turns out that Jerome is specifically looking for someone. Bruce plans to confront Jerome as he feels responsible for not killing him in their previous fight. Jerome tracks down his abusive uncle, who tries to kill Jerome when Bruce arrives. Bruce decides to Save the Villain in the ensuing showdown, but this results in Jerome killing his uncle after learning where his target works. Next, Jerome shoots up Wayne Enterprises before learning the location of target, and is driven off by Gordon and Bullock, who track down Jerome's target; his own twin brother Jeremiah Valeska. Now Jeremiah is a paranoid guy who was anticipating Jerome to come after him and set up a trap his twin, but Jerome escapes again when Scarecrow and the Mad Hatter show up. We also find out that Jerome has had Scarecrow make a familiar venom...
The next episode, Jerome holds a music festival hostage, alongside Gotham officials and the rich and powerful. Jerome has a blimp filled with the Joker venom with the plan on setting the gas loose all over Gotham. Jerome demands both his brother and Bruce Wayne be taken to him as part of his hostages, and the two are taking to Jerome's stage. GCPD snipers attempt to take out Jerome but he already sees this coming and has his men take them out. Jerome wants to prove that his good twin brother is just as crazy as he is and gives him a knife, telling Jeremiah to "take your best shot". But when Jeremiah tries to stab Jerome, he gets beaten down for his trouble. While all this is going on, Gordan has the area evacuated and shoots Jerome in the shoulder. Gordon chases Jerome to the roof of a nearby building where Jerome tries to radio the blimps pilot (not knowing it was taken over by Cobblepot) and gets shot two more times by Gordon. Jerome falls off the building, but grabs onto a flag pole. Jerome reaches up and dares Gordon to play the good guy and save him, but when Gordon reaches down Jerome pulls his reaching hand away, congratulating Gordon got playing by the rules, but declaring that he is more of an idea than a man and that his own legacy will outlive Gordon. Jerome lets go of the flag pole and falls to his death, laughing all the way.
In the aftermath, Jeremiah finds a gift from Jerome in his secret office. Part of the gift is a recorded message from Jerome, of how Jeremiah will be his successor; the other part being a special dose of venom which bleaches Jeremiah's skin white, his lips red and hair dark green. Now be fair, ever since Jerome was introduced, I did bet on him being an obvious Red Herring (although I was proven wrong years ago who would take up the Joker mantle), but amusingly enough the commercials they used to introduce him did say he was "No Joke".
But as for Jerome, he isn't given any redeeming qualities. He and his brother despise each other and Jerome only sees Jeremiah as a continuation of his legacy at best. Jerome mentions that he has loved his family in the past, but it's exactly that- the past. For a Freudian Excuse, it does turn out that Jerome's uncle was certainly abusive, but when they actually build up an Alas, Poor Villain moment, Jerome immediately throws it out the window with a joke when Bruce came to save him; "With my uncle Zack, the beatings never stopped, but no one came to help. It makes me wonder....what the hell is wrong with you ?" before amusing himself with Bruce nearly getting himself killed moments later. It doesn't help that they mention that Jerome was always psychotic, and that he was one of those kids who'd torture and mutilate small animals for fun - it's implied that's the whole reason he had an abusive childhood in the first place. The only thing they try to give Jerome that come close to a valid excuse is that Jeremiah turned Jerome's family against him, and even then that's undermined by the above mentioned "Jerome was a psycho all the way back when he was a kid" and doesn't come close to justify all the mayhem he caused.
Now what's interesting is Jeremiah...turns out to be a bit of a subversion of a Tragic Villain, as I'll explain in a few hours or so.
edited 30th May '18 9:51:19 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
...they finally properly revealed the Joker is in that show? Huh.
Gentle Laborer
If i recall correctly, Jeremiah admitted that the gas did not affect him at all, it only served to release the beast inside of him. Whether this is true or simply Jeremiah trolling us (he is the Joker afterall) is up to interpretation i guess, but i'm sure you will explore this aspect of his.
The problem is how they introduced Jeremiah. The guy is an amazing character and antagonist, but cmon, the "twin brother that was never mentioned before" is just disappointing, to say the least.
Jeremiah and Jerome are two sides of the same coin, or in this case, spectrum of sociopathy: One is a loud, ruthless savage, while the other is a controlled, cold-hearted mastermind.
Cameron Monaghan is an incredible actor btw, love him.
edited 30th May '18 9:24:25 PM by TheMadCr0w
Time for my remaining thoughts on Designated Survivor Season 2, which in addition to briefly continuing the storyline from Season 1 has multiple storylines, bringing the show in directions that clearly try to make it more like Scandal for the most part. Please refer to his write up for his Season 1 crimes.
What does Patrick Lloyd do in Season 2?
Lloyd is now on the run for all the atrocities he committed in Season 1. He goes to contacts in other countries to achieve resources and this usually results in him killing said contacts to cover his tracks. He eventually makes his way back to D.C. and breaks into and tosses the home of President Tom Kirkman's mother-in-law while she's there. It's clear that he can get to Kirkman and his family anytime he wants. He does this though for the purpose of uncovering a file that implicates Kirkman's mother-in-law in taking a bribe from a security company of some kind, which leads to an investigation into her and then later Kirkman's wife Alex.
Alex is able to clear herself of suspicion, but by incredibly bad luck is killed in a car crash by a driver who was sending a text message. Lloyd continues to evade authorities until holing himself up in a bunker and demanding to be set free in a certain time period and threatens to unleash a deadly nerve gas if he is not given the chance to overturn the government. Kirkman tries to appeal to Lloyd's fatherly instincts when he gets the White House to patch him through to the bunker to make contact, but Lloyd refuses. After overcoming some bureaucratic red tape, Kirkman orders an airstrike and the bunker is blown up. It's confirmed that they find Lloyd's body in the wreckage.
Heinous standard?
He doesn't do much here compared to Season 1 (if at all), but he's still the most heinous villain in the series by far given all the crimes he committed in Season 1 and no one else in the season counts because they're actions individually flail in comparison to his.
Redeeming qualities? Mitigating factors?
It's revealed that Lloyd's reasons for his vendetta against the country and his desire to take it over is because his father was locked up years ago for a crime that he apparently didn't commit and died in prison as a result. That said though, he hasn't just hurt people associated with the government with his acts of violence. Not to mention he's planned acts of violence against civilians too (the blueprints of the Golden Gate Bridge blowing up and his massive arsenal of bombs to be more exact) and his attempts to control the country's nuclear weapons goes towards a bigger plan to cause even more bloodshed be it in country or out. There's also the mention of him having a son, contacting him and sending him money, but he gives his son no second thought after that and chooses his ideology when Kirkman tries to relate with him about also being a father who would do anything for his kids.
Lloyd also gives no thought to others' kids given he ordered Atwood's son to be abducted and later killed. His son is an afterthought much like Leon Vorgitch's dying mother was an afterthought to him in the Law & Order episode Deadlock. It's because of this that He Who Fights Monsters doesn't quite apply to him because his relationship with his son is otherwise nonexistent. You Killed My Father doesn't really apply either because the weight of everything he's done shows him taking his anger out on everyone and not just the people responsible for what happened to his father. His actions in exposing the file I at first thought maybe it warned of a greater threat to look out for in the future. Nothing really comes of it though and it seems to only exist to cause Kirkman more trouble by bringing his Presidency into question and creating more challenges for him. Even through what seems to be selfless acts, Lloyd still comes off as having an unreasonable It's All About Me complex. He seems to firmly refuse to believe there's anyone who has it worse than he does.
Verdict?
There's just enough I think to justify that he stays, so tentative . He probably doesn't need an expansion though. I'll leave it to the vote to decide what happens either way though.
edited 30th May '18 9:34:29 PM by futuremoviewriter
Ehhh... I'm gonna have to say cut Lloyd. He's awful for sure, but does seem to care about his father even if not all his crimes are motivated by it.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Now I'm not arguing we should remove Jerome but that stuff about him torturing animals is told to us by Jeremiah who is later shown to be an unreliable narrator. I'm not tryng to say he's a tragic villain but in my eyes hes more of a Jerkass Woobie like the live action Hunter zoloman. Sophia in my eyes just BARELY escapes being this trope because of her love of her brother the only one of her redeemable qualities she doesn't throw out the window(although as he's dead so it's not clear if he would be expendable or not) even if given her murder of her father it makes her a hypocrite. Personally I think we should keep an eye out for Jeremiah himself. Even if its ambiguous wether he was always evil his actions as the joker(Shooting selina,faking torturing Alfred,Almost blowing up the town) can make him this trope face heel turn or no. The only thing to me keeping him off the list is Even Evil Has Loved Ones with ecco but well have to wait to see if its genuine(Especially knowing who she's based off of)
edited 30th May '18 10:16:25 PM by Kylotrope
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Yeah, cut Lloyd, it doesn't matter that not all of his crimes are about a person that mattered to him, the problem is his father mattered to him and a number of his crimes ARE motivated by that and nothing has been said to counter that characteristic.
I would have prefered we saved talking about Jerome's details when I finished the effortpost (especially if they spoil some of what I'm about it explain) But since it's done, continuing the Gotham discussion.
Now for Jerome's "good twin" brother, Jerimiah aka The Joker (but due to legal reasons the show's not allowed to use the name for some reason). He is also the Joker pic I am currently using for my profile at the time of this effortpost.
Who is he ?
As previously mentioned, Jeremiah is Jerome's identical twin brother. The two where seemingly polar opposites with Jerome being the obviously Ax-Crazy brother and Jeremiah being strait laced, collected and mild mannered. As a child, Jeremiah had a hobby of drawing mazes, while Jerome had a hobby of killing cats. Jerome loves chaos, Jeremiah believes in order. One day, Jeremiah was sent away from his family for protection from Jerome, where he got a high class education and adopted the alias Xander Wilde, becoming a highly skilled engineer and associate of Wayne Enterprises. As Xander he never appears in public, only working through his assistant/proxy in a young woman named Harle- ahem Ecco. As mentioned in Jerome's update, Jerome has been tracking his brother down and took him hostage along with Bruce Wayne and some city officials, and ends up befriending Bruce after Jerome's death and the two talk about electric generators that Jeremiah designed to control all of Gotham's electricity, but when Jeremiah returns to his office, he gets sprayed by a surprise gas left behind by his brother.
This is where things get interesting.
What Does He Do ?
Jeremiah sends Ecco to Jerome's grave dressed as a jester. Jerome's mourning followers are there where Ecco plays a message seemingly from Jerome, telling them to throw a wake at the GCPD. There a video seems to be of Jerome announcing his plans for his funeral as his followers start a fight with the police. Gordon races to Jeremiah's bunker where he finds another tape recording of Jerome. That is up until "Jerome" begins wiping the makeup off his face and talking in a more subdued manner saying "Jerome is dead. Long live me." As all this is happening, Bruce pays Jeremiah a visit, where Jeremiah claims to have been haunted by visions of Jerome. Bruce takes Jeremiah to his brothers gravesite, only to find an empty grave. Jeremiah has a panic attack claiming Jerome is alive and even accusing Bruce of being Jerome before his brothers cult show up. One of them starts praising Jeremiah as the new Jerome, which prompts an annoyed Jeremiah to shoot said cult member before wiping the makeup off his face, revealing it to be bleached white. Jeremiah reveals his plans to one up Jerome's and do so with order to prove that he's the better brother. It's revealed that the generators he created are actually high powered bombs, and he left Gordon into a trap to kill him with one of these bombs (Gordon survives due to plot armor). Jeremiah sarcastically calls Bruce his "best friend" before knocking him into the grave and leaving. The episode caps off with Jeremiah and Ecco killing two Wayne Enterprise executives and stealing the other generators.
The next episode has Jeremiah completely take over and reinvent Jerome's cult (and dresses up in purple outfits) where he approaches the GCPD to announce his plans to destroy Gotham and rebuild it in his own image. He gives them six hours to evacuate the city as he placed bombs all over the city and to show how serious he is, sets off one of the bombs. Jeremiah also states that if the police does anything to harm him, he'll immediately set off all the bombs. Jeremiah also calls Bruce and tells him he kidnaped Alfred. Bruce races to find where Alfred is being held, only to be dosed by a fear toxin and having to watch live feeds of Alfred being tortured. Bruce seems to find Alfred who has gone mad and begun to self mutilate and tries to kill Bruce. The fight is cut short when the real Alfred shows up (having been rescued earlier by Selina) and kills the decoy. Meanwhile, Oswald Cobbelpott, Butch Gilzen, Barbara Kean and Tabitha Galavan come up with a plan to get close to Jeremiah in a ruse to kill him, demanding an additional hour to evacuate the city and 50 million dollars, taking one of his henchmen hostage. Jeremiah kills said henchmen with a rocket launcher and announces he's changed his mind and will detonate the bombs immediately when he's a safe distance from the city, calling off the evacuation deal.
Later Jeremiah prepares to detonate the bombs with his followers all there to witness this, only for the trigger to fail since Bullock disabled the bombs, as a news broadcast airs confirming Gordon's survival. Jeremiah's followers turns against him for his failure, and Jeremiah has them all sealed in a chamber and incinerated. Finding himself back at square one, Jeremiah is approached by Ra's Al Ghul, who offers a Villain Team-Up to help fulfill a vision the latter had. Jeremiah accepts and shows up at Wayne Manner just after Bruce and Selina have their Big Damn Kiss, and shoots Selina in the stomach. The episode closes with Alfred beating the crap out of Jeremiah while Bruce goes to comfort Selina.
In the season finale, Selina is being hospitalized while Jeremiah has been arrested. Jeremiah keeps demanding to see Bruce and with his team up with Ra's Al Ghul going on, Jeremiah's bombing plan is back in action. This time the military steps in to enforce a martial law and lead an total evacuation of the city. Bruce is eventually taken in to talk with Jeremiah and they have a Not So Different discussion typical of what we see from Batman and the Joker. This turns out to be a distraction for Ra's to abduct them back to his base of operations. It turns out Ra's and Jeremiah's plans where to put bombs on the evacuation bridges surrounding Gotham. Ra's believes that through the cities destruction, a Dark Knight will rise in Bruce, while Jeremiah believes this is simply the beginning of a longstanding rivalry between the two. Soon, Barbara, Tabitha, Oswald and Alfred show up and a fight ensues. In the confusion, Jeremiah tries to kill Tabitha but is shot a few times and wounded by Oswald. The fight culminates in Barbara and Bruce stabbing Ra's to death, killing him seemingly once and for all, but the bombs go off and the bridges are destroyed. Jeremiah briefly laughs at this before pulling an Exit Villain, Stage Left.
The season ends with the military being forced to pull out of Gotham, with the city now cut off from the rest of the world, allowing its criminals, especially Batman's rouge gallery, beginning to cause havoc. Gotham has become No Man's Land, with many being successfully evacuated but Bruce, Gordon, Bullock and Lucius Fox stay behind to protect the city. And with Bruce one step closer (since next season's supposed to be the final one) to becoming Batman, he's looking for Jeremiah especially.
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?
Now at first Jeremiah seems like the good twin of the Valeska brothers, being the mild mannered, paranoid strait laced brother. Even when he becomes the Joker you think he's gonna be some tragic figure of have some moral agency issues to be being dosed with Joker venom...
And boy did they pull the rug out from under us! Because when we next see Jeremiah after his Joker transformation and when Bruce tries to tell him to fight what the venom did to him, Jeremiah states that Jerome's joker venom did little nothing by alter his appearance, bleaching his skin pale white, his lips red and hair dark green. The only time he acts like you'd expect someone to be under the venoms influence to be, it's when he pretends to be Jerome on camera and when he feigns paranoia and panic to Bruce about Jerome coming back. In actuality, Jeremiah's joker mode is pretty much the exact same personality as his normal one; he's calm, collected and one of the most Cold Ham versions of the Joker I have ever seen since John DiMaggio's version. Only real difference is Jeremiah is acting more outwardly evil. Jerome claims that Jeremiah is just as bad as he is behind his mild mannered persona, and even back then Jeremiah is presented as a suspicious figure, so this lends more credence to the interpretation that Jeremiah was Evil All Along and all Jerome's joker gas did to him was alter is appearance.
When Jeremiah is introduced he claims the reason he separated from Jerome was because he told his family that Jerome was always threatening and bullying him, but Jeremiah later admits in that same episode that he was lying to his family about that part (although he was paranoid of Jerome due to his behaviour as a child). There is clear animosity between the two brothers everytime the two interact, and as it turns out Jeremiah's motivations as the Joker was not to be just a copy of his brother (in fact being compared to Jerome is Jeremiah's Berserk Button) but rather one up Jerome in his plans and prove himself "better" than his brother. He doesn't want to continue Jerome's legacy, he wants to usurp it.
As for additional factors; Jeremiah shows no care towards Ecco, she's just a henchman to him - literally a discount Harley Quinn; he causally burns all his followers to death when they turn against him and kills one of them for comparing him to Jerome; he also brings with him that Love/Hate factor towards Bruce that we see sometimes with Batman and the Joker; during his team up with Ra's Al Ghul, he expresses no interest in the latter's prophecies and vision regarding Bruce, only he wants to bring Bruce's dark side out and mould it like a big brother; while he does give Gotham six hours to evacuate, it comes off as more Pragmatic Villainy than a genuine Pet the Dog moment since he admits he doesn't mind if people die when he blows up the city, just that they don't have to. It doesn't help his case that he says he'll destroy the city immediately if anyone tries to stop or harm him and attempts to make good on that threat after a botched attempt to kill him. Doubly so since he and Ra's make deliberate attempts to bomb evacuation bridges.
Heinousness
He does have a sizeable bodycount in the last few episodes that I estimate is at least in the dozens, tortures a guy and Mind Rape another and twice threatens to destroy all of Gotham with a hundreds of powerful bombs. The second time Jeremiah threatens the city, he succeeds in halting much of the evacuation by blowing up the bridges, forcing the military to retreat and cutting Gotham off the rest of the world, turning Gotham into No Man's Land where Batman's future rouge gallery is free to run amuck.
Although the second time he does this he's in a Big Bad Duumvirate with Ra's Al Ghul and I may go on bit of a rant here; I've always been in the opinion that if two villains are working together either as a Big Bad Duumvirate or the Big Bad and The Dragon, they share the heinousness, provided the lesser half has enough independence as a villain, especially in crimes and agenda (although that's the same argument I used for Tamara Monroe, so clearly it doesn't always work). I am rarely if ever a believer in arguments of "X just The Dragon" or "X not the Big Bad and therefore not heinous enough". I only bring this up because while Ra's acts as the dominate villain in their team up, Jeremiah does act on his own at first and even during his team up with Ra's, makes it clear that he has his own goals and agenda while the two pose the same threat.
Only hang up is Jeremiah is still alive and on the loose as the cliffhanger villain of the season. Season five is also supposed to be the last.
It also has come to my attention the the next big Arrowverse crossover event is gonna officially implement Gotham City into its franchise. Now I know it's unlikely that Fox and the CW are gonna end up working out a deal, but hey a fanboy can dream right ?
edited 30th May '18 10:35:39 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Jeremiah... is one I'd say wait on. I don't really think he has much in the way of solid redeeming qualities, but his arc isn't over yet and frankly Jerome is so freaking bad and deals in such a similar style of villainy I genuinely don't think Jeremiah actually crosses the standard yet.
Put him on the wait-and-see.
Wait and see for Jeremiah for now.
edited 30th May '18 10:52:37 PM by Knack
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Wait and see for Jeremiah
Abstain on Lloyd
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Now I think we should wait til season 5 to completely cement jeremiah as a CM Now on the one hand even if He WAS a genuinely good person like Bruce, As the Joker His actions are SO screwed up That regardless of who he USED to be hes still a monster either way. And to me at least his actions are Evil on a much more personal level then Jerome who was more random HOWEVER, There's still one factor left, ecco. You say him "caring" about her is mere pragmatic villainy however its shown before he became joker that he was willing to risk his life rather then abandon her(Which ironically is more sympathetic if he was Evil All Along as if it was a Face Heel Turn one could assume his love for ecco would go with his goodness) So perhaps there's is more similar to the suicide sqaud versions of joker and Harley Quiin's relationship then others I heard someone say that monaghan wanted to explore there relationship more so perhaps well get an answer in season 5
Now Sophia falcone as discussed above I dont think she misses the heinous standard(threatens children,kills father, cruelly manipulates people, Sadistically breaking Lee's hands,ECT) But her love for her brother is the only redeemable quality she doesn't mitigate, But I have a question does Even Evil Has Standards count if its a case of Hypocrosy? After all despite her hatred of gordan for killing her brother she shows she's fine with sacrificing family for power so what do you guys think?
edited 30th May '18 11:12:09 PM by Kylotrope
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Being a hypocrite is not a bar to it.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
But isnt the entire point of Even Evil Has Standards that its a line a villain wouldnt cross?
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Yeah put Jeremiah on the wait and see list.
Speaking of Gotham I was thinking about Professor Pyg from the first half Season 4. I was wondering if he does enough to qualify?
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Pyg im not completely sure about he seems like an(Extremely ruthless) Well Intentioned Extremist As the only time he threatens another one of the poor is with Martin(and its not clear if he was bluffing) And seamt legitimately mentally ill. Although that all depends on how much was really about the poor and how much was an excuse to satisfy his sadism or even how much he believed his own rhehortic and how much was just part of the performance The only thing I can truly say about him is his loyalty to Sophia and never backstabs her which if you assume hes genuine in his desires to kill the rich to end corruption may have thought Sophia did as well
edited 30th May '18 11:57:21 PM by Kylotrope
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
On the possibility of An arrowverse corssover I should note they introduced a version of rhas there. But they could easily get rid of that with flashpoint(especially as that version of rhas is The Scrappy)
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Wait on Jeremiah.
Goku Black
wait on jerimiah
Xaviax and Manero.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Not really. They implied that he was always evil and this is him just getting a new look.
edited 31st May '18 8:31:15 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Honestly, his mindset needs to be explored. He doesn't want to "save" his planet because he truly loves Karsh and its citizens like Eubulon does, he wants to bring it back because he deems Karsh to be superior to every other planet, and in his mind, non-Karshians need to rebuild it, even if it means enslaving them and destroying their planets. A superior race having to do the hard work? That's not on his list. And it's not like other Karshians agree with him or see him as a hero fighting for a noble cause either, his methods were extreme even to Eubulon, one of the most experienced Karshians on the planet. He is the worst hypocrite of them all, not only does he consider Karsh to be superior to everything else, he specifically sees himself as superior to other Karshians, the war only started because of his rivalry with the southern Karshians, and then he ordered Eubulon to create weapons for him, what was the result? Both the north and the south were devastated by his actions. In conclusion, he doesn't want to rebuild Karsh for his people as you might be thinking, he wants to rebuild Karsh for him.
@Elfen It's your birthday fam? Congrats my dude, best wishes.
edited 30th May '18 7:48:53 PM by TheMadCr0w