Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

@11880: Agree with cutting all the Great Expectations examples.

@11881: Sounds like a cinematic masterpiece. Cut everyone except Breckel.

@11882: Those are both great entries for XaXa and Johnny Black.

@11885: Sorry about that, my mistake.

@11889: Once again, I agree with everything lightysnake says about those Being Human examples.

@11899: It sounds like none of those Phantasmagoria 2 examples count. The first one says he sends his patients to their deaths for Warner's experiments, but Warner's entry makes no mention of him killing these people, only of him being a colossal dick. And the third one's a Tragic Monster so obviously it can't count either.

@11917: Cut manga!Mitsuko's stepfather and mother, and cut book!Yuko's father since all sound like Offscreen Villainy, and even if they aren't, all sound like they fail the heinous standard. Also, cut book!Mitsuko's mother unless she's shown in flashback.

@11920: Yep, that seems to be the consensus on those Monster.Live Action TV examples. Lightysnake also brought up that Grayza from Farscape had an unborn child that she seems to care about so she probably doesn't count either. And, thinking more on it, I agree that the pair of drug dealers from Breaking Bad don't sound heinous enough for the setting, since a lot of character seem to hurt kids.

@11924: Agree with cutting Androids 17 and 18 for caring about each other.

edited 20th Apr '13 1:53:32 PM by OccasionalExister

Dragon Ball Z: Oh boy, here we go.

Current contenders on the series' CM page:

• Taopaipai: Keep.
• Freeza: Keep.
• Chilled: Seems far less heinous than either of his brothers, who did a lot more Bad Stuff. Cut.
• Dr Gero: Responsible for all the bad shit in the Androids and Cell Sagas, yes, but he was ultimately completely out of his depth in all timelines, where all his creations pulled an Eviler than Thou. Plus he does a lot less than Freeza or Cell. Cut.
• Alternate!Androids 17 and 18: If they care about each other it's a Cut. their entry is a mess anyway.
• Cell: If he was made evil due to evil genes, that implies impaired moral agency; not sure if it's truly the case, though. on the fence.
• Babidi: Does more heinous stuff than Gero, but I doubt he reaches the same depths as Freeza or Cell, and like Gero, is ultimately overshadowed and destroyed by his creation. On the fence, but leaning Cut.
• Bibidi: Offscreen Villainy IIRC. Unless proven otherwise, Cut.
• Super Buu: Bit less problematic than Cell IMO, so leaning Keep for now.

Plus, generalised problem with italics, Bold Inflation and ALL CAPS, which would require a bit of rewriting.

No OVA villains there, but my 2 cents is they don't count since they're almost all dime-store versions of the TV series' villains with not enough characterization; Broly IMO is a pretty standard Generic Doomsday Villain.

EDIT: @randomtroper89: You're gonna handle those? Great.

edited 20th Apr '13 2:29:18 PM by Paireon

Chilled is there ancestor, not there brother. irrelavent I know, I just fealt the need to inform you. On Bibidi, while he is a backstory villain, we see his actions via flashback. Also, Cell is evil by his own choice, Frieza's genes have nothing to do with it.

edited 20th Apr '13 2:42:20 PM by bobg

I removed Carla from Burn Notice, but I decided to check the YMMV page for Burn Notice for other examples there, and I found this:

• Complete Monster: Carla, Larry, Gilroy, Simon, Tyler, Anson. The list goes on really.

Carla was just removed from the list, Larry does seem to want to help Michael at times, Simon was once on this list before getting removed, and Tyler does care about his daughter. That leaves Gilroy and Anson.

edited 20th Apr '13 3:28:04 PM by randomtroper89

I'm voting against Movie Cooler from counting as a DBZ CM, mostly because his actions in the first movie put him on par with every DBZ villian ever, while his second appearance is worse, but chopping Namekians up to use as a power source isn't that much different from Cell sucking the life force out of them, and most of what's listed against him is offscreen or eventual plans instead of what he's actually done.

@Another Duck

"So you could basically have a world where everyone brutally kills everyone, but since it's only in the backstory, the one person who's actually shown brutally killing someone is a Complete Monster, because everything else is just Offstage Villainy?"

Give me an example of a series like that. If you had a bunch of criminals sitting around the table, talking about all the people they raped and tortured, and one of them has a flashback and the others don't, then no, we probably wouldn't count that guy. The tone of the work alone would be way too dark. Same would go for any work meeting the description you provided.

It's also irrelevant to the work you and I were discussing because, guess what? PoH may have a huge offscreen bodycount, but so do XaXa and Johnny, who were just behind him in bodycount when SAO ended. Throw in their onscreen crimes and they are ahead of him. So it doesn't matter at all for discussing that example.

"You don't understand my opinion, I don't understand yours. Let's leave it at that. And don't call me gung-ho; I really don't care that much."

It's not I don't understand your opinion or argument, it's that you don't have one. First you wanted Kuradeel in, and claimed XaXa and Johnny weren't worse then him. Then you tried to claim other people were worse then XaXa and Johnny, but couldn't name any until I provided the names. Then you got fixated on offscreen villainy. Make an actual argument, and I will cheerfully understand it. All I'm getting is a sense of sour grapes.

"I'm disillusioned. That's completely ignoring the setting."

Except that's not what we're doing, and that'd be very obvious if you look at how short the pages for Berserk, A Song Of Ice And Fire, etc are. As for your being disillusioned, with what? The fact that the forum and trope don't match your expectations?

RE: DBZ

Going to say no to Cooler. Keep Taopaipai, Frieza, Kid Buu, and maybe Cell. Burn the rest.

RE: Live Action TV.

Go for it Paireon.

RE: Sundowner.

Really on the fence now. Shaoken and Laculus have both made good arguments.

RE: Great Expectations

Cut it.

edited 20th Apr '13 3:43:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

It is that you don't understand, which you so eloquently demonstrated here. You should also stop assuming and taking things out of context. That's just lying, so please stop that. As I said before, I'm done.

Currently on the fence on both Babadi and Cooler. Babadi could be more heinous but Frieza has a worse and more heinous bodycount.

Also this example from Where On Earth Is Carmen Sandiego needs to be checked upon:

• Complete Monster: Lee Jordan, who attempts to kill Zack and Ivy, and in the last episode of the series, blackmails Carmen into working for him by holding her possible father hostage and threatening to kill him if she doesn't do what he says.

If this is the case, than he's no different or worse off from any villain actually if that's all he does. This needs MAJOR expansion or BIWF.

edited 20th Apr '13 4:26:31 PM by xie323

All I could think of there was the Quidditch commentator guy going on a killing spree.

I think that even in the DBZ universe, gleefully going around blowing up entire cities is enough to meet the show's heinous standard.

As for Dr. Gero, I'd personally also say that he qualifies because 1. he has no redeeming qualities and is driven entirely by his own desire for revenge, and 2. unlike Cell or Buu, he wasn't created to be a monster, and unlike Freeza, he wasn't part of a long line of monsters and brought up to be one. Not that Cell, Super Buu and Freeza don't qualify, but I think that knowing he's just a normal human with complete control of his actions who is willing to dedicate his life to building machines designed to mass murder just to get back at Goku for defeating the Red Ribbon Army is enough to qualify him.

I've not seen the show in it's entirety (I read the manga), but I do know that Bibidi is actually shown in the anime instead of just being talked about. I don't know what he does onscreen or if he qualifies, though.

Future 18 and 17 should be Cut because they care somewhat for each other and they have a Freudian Excuse. But I still hate them.

edited 20th Apr '13 5:50:38 PM by Camberf

DBZ time...

Tao Pai Pai: Discussed him before. We keep

Freeza: easy keep

Cell: Easy keep. Androids and artificial beings have full moral agency, as 16 has proven. Chilled: Cut

Dr. Gero: Cut. here's the thing...what did he want? To kill the bad guys and take over the world.Collateral damage was involved, sure, but he never goes the extra mile. He didn't intend for a lot of atrocities to happen either, he was just wholly out of his depth

Can someone confirm if Buu has agency? he was created by Babidi after all

edited 20th Apr '13 4:42:13 PM by Lightysnake

Well Gero did blow that city up himself for no real reason, wouldn't that qualify as "going the extra mile"?

BIWF? Burn it with...fire? What else would you burn it with?

Anyway, Marvel: Someone can expand Dormammu and Carnage, but the entries for Cavella and Rawlins look fine to me...

EDIT: Speaking of Dormammu, what about Shuma-Gorath? Or is that Blue-and-Orange Morality or Made of Evil or whatever?

edited 20th Apr '13 5:14:12 PM by ACW

Cities got destroyed all the time in Dragonball. Piccolo Daimyo destroyed one, the first thing Nappa did was destroy one, Cell destroyed them (in the form of killing everyone in them), Freeza destroyed planets, Vegeta slaughtered civilian villages of Namekians (and in the enemy vaporized a planet for no reason whatsoever)...And Majin Buu? Well...

"Blows up a city" is bog standard in DBZ

But all of those other characters have disqualifying characteristics (other than the ones we all agree qualify).

If Gero is willing to commit mass murder personally, he must have been aware of how dangerous his machines were.

edited 20th Apr '13 5:34:13 PM by Camberf

where all his creations pulled an Eviler than Thou.

In the case of his evillest creation, Cell, however, Cell's words suggest that being on Omnicidal Maniac on a galactic scale was the full extent of his design that Gero knowingly created him to fulfill. IMHO, cutting him because Cell and the Androids do more than him would be like cutting Hojo because Sephiroth does more than him.

Broly IMO is a pretty standard Generic Doomsday Villain.

In his first movie, at least, he was described by other characters and himself as "pure evil" or "a devil." And though he was Ax-Crazy, he was fully aware of the things he was doing. He taunted the worker aliens with their longing to go back to their planet before blowing said planet up from a distance, he asked "Tell me, Kakarott? How much do you love your son?" when intending to kill Gohan, and he knew what his father was trying to do in his rocketpod, which he then crushed, crushing his father to death.

Also, Cell is evil by his own choice, Frieza's genes have nothing to do with it.

It's part of his design. Freeza's cells help to give him the same moral agency as Freeza. However, this does not disqualify him since he does choose to pursue the fulfillment of his ultimate design (Androids 16, 17, and 18 show that androids are capable of making moral choices too, and 16 was a pure robot!), and his means of absorbing people and sucking them dry for their energy, plus how little he thinks of it, is one of the most truly horrifying things in the whole series.

Keep Taopaipai, Frieza, Kid Buu, and maybe Cell

Super Buu, you mean. Kid Buu was evil by default: he had no moral agency.

You should also stop assuming and taking things out of context.

Don't bother. For some reason, Ambar seems to always sees the worst in the person he's debating with.

If this is the case, than he's no different or worse off from any villain actually if that's all he does.

I don't remember exactly what he did in his two appearances, but I do remember that by the standards of the show he was more heinous than any of VILE's villain, Carmen was mortified by his actions, and he was a straight up psychopathic criminal in a way that was surprisingly dark for the show. The kicker? His motives for going above and beyond the show's standard villainy was petty glory hounding. I'm on the fence, leaning towards keep.

I think that even in the DBZ universe, gleefully going around blowing up entire cities is enough to meet the show's heinous standard.

Who's this referring to? Babidi? He didn't blow up any cities. He broadcasted a psychic terrorist message to all the people of Earth, then had Buu turn a city's population into candy to eat, and even when some terrified citizens gave him the info he was asking for, he had Buu candify them and eat them anyway. And he was giddy about doing this the whole while.

Can someone confirm if Buu has agency? he was created by Babidi after all

He was created by Bibidi, actually. And the entry outright says that Kid Buu (Buu as he was originally created) had no moral agency, while Fat Buu was an innocent Psychopathic Man Child. Evil Buu/Super Buu, who was a manifistation of Buu's dark side brought out by a psycho criminal shooting Mr. Satan...well, just look at the picture on the DB CM page.

edited 21st Apr '13 8:47:43 AM by AnewMan

"It is that you don't understand, which you so eloquently demonstrated here. You should also stop assuming and taking things out of context. That's just lying, so please stop that. As I said before, I'm done."

So you don't explain yourself. Then you accuse me of not understanding your point, whatever it might have been. And then you accuse me of lying. All after having said that you were going to drop it. You are welcome to stop anytime. But you don't get to take a parting shot like that, and then try to present yourself as a moral victor. You notice that nobody has agreed with you? Clearly, whatever point you are trying to make, it ain't just me who doesn't get it. Explain yourself or don't. Stick around or don't. But accusations of lying? Really?

lighty I think you mean the anime, not the enemy.

Typos aside, I agree that Gero doesn't qualify. We may normally apply tiers, but Gero has delusions of playing at Frieza or Cell's level, and can't hack it. That means we have to judge him by their standards, and since he can't pull it off, I think he's gotta go. Bad guy, but not at CM level.

@randomtroper89

That's a terrible entry. If all those people who you say don't qualify don't qualify, then by all means, get rid of it. Can you elaborate on the two who you thought might?

@Paireon

You figure out a way for us to work that extra stuff about Suguo into the entry?

edited 20th Apr '13 5:41:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Well, with my votes, X Fllo's votes (@11894, 11919), Occasional Exister's votes (@11926), and Ambar's votes (@11931), I think that's enough to chop the Great Expectations examples. I'll leave a commented out note that any attempts to re-add them should be brought here.

May make a sweep of the pages for the handful of other Dickens novels I've read at some point; his works are all so dark that even if the good usually end happily and the bad unhappily, to paraphrase his non-fan Oscar Wilde, there are few villains who stand out as true monsters.

EDITED TO ADD: Having swept the three or four others I've actually read, the only one I found was Bill Sikes from Oliver Twist. Here's the entry as written on YMMV.Oliver Twist:

• Complete Monster: While Fagin is the better-remembered villain, Bill Sikes plays this role in the book. Everyone is terrified of him and he performs the only deeds of true brutality in the story. None of the other villains (Fagin, Monks, or what have you) come close to matching him in being an utter bastard.

Said acts of true brutality including killing Nancy in cold blood for trying to save Oliver from being dragged back into Fagin's gang for a third time (albeit because Fagin made him think she'd informed on the gang to the authorities). It is true that all of the book's other criminals are scared of him and his violent temper (Fagin especially), and while he and Nancy may be in a sort of relationship, the only actual affection is on her side - he's just as violent toward her even before he kills her as he is toward anyone.

It looks as though Sikes was discussed once or twice before in this thread (most recently on Pages 394 and following), but the discussions never quite reached a resolution. I'm inclined to vote "keep" myself, and he's probably the only example from a Dickens book that I would vote to keep.

edited 20th Apr '13 6:05:29 PM by mlsmithca

For DBZ, I'm willing to keep Freeza, not sure about the others since I have only seen a few episodes of the show and from those episodes in addition to some supplementary material I found on this site, Freeza's proved himself more than worthy of the title of Complete Monster. Also is it Freeza or Frieza? I believe the show pronounces it Freeza, but I never see a consistency when it comes to that characters name. (Like Tidus from Final Fantasy X)

Also I assume Grubba's a no then? He pales in comparison to the Shadow Queen, but what he did was a definite Moral Event Horizon for him.

Also we've got some examples from Fire Emblem Jugdral that need to be looked over:

• Hilda tortures and kills Tiltyu, then brutally abuses Tinny (and if in any case Tiltyu died during the first generation, Hilda would instead torture and kill Tiltyu's little sister Ethnia; then abuses the hell out of Tinny's substitute/Ethinia's daughter Linda), goes on child-hunting for fun (and that's when her husband Blume, Tiltyu's brother, had second thoughts of child-hunting despite being an overall bastard as well. She also manipulates her and Blume's Dark Magical Girl daughter Ishtar into marrying the guy she loves, Julius, solely because Hilda wants to use said marriage to get more power for herself..
• Travant barely avoids this in Genealogy with a Heel Realization, but still came across as one in general in the first half, during which he already crosses the Moral Event Horizon with his method of killing Quan and his wife Ethlyn, then capturing and raising their daughter Altena..
• Archbishop Manfloy is responsible, directly or indirectly, for almost everything that happens in the plot, to the point that he's pretty much the game's Big Bad.
  • First Generation: He manipulated various rulers and dukes, causing the war against Isaach by using Duke Reptor of Freege to assassinate Ira's father, King Mananan, while also manipulating King Chagall into killing his father and sending his envoy Sandima to stir trouble in Verdane. During this time he worked primarily with Arvis, whom he was blackmailing with knowledge of Arvis's Loptyr blood in addition to his Fala heritage, thus poisoning him with hatred and envy. Later, he kidnaps and brainwashes Sigurd's wife Deirdre (and in one of the mangas, he outright mind rapes her and laughs about it), then manipulated her and the emotionally-weakened Arvis so they'd marry and have children who could be used as Loptyr vessels (and they're half-siblings, by the way). And as the cherry on top, he killed Lewyn of Selisse with his own hands in the Battle of Belhalla (With Forseti becoming a Dragon Ex Machina to let him escape death).
  • Second Generation: A while before it started, he gave Prince Julius the Loptyr tome, causing him to become the vessel for the Dark God and kill his mother Deirdre while attempting to kill his twin sister Julia (who Deirdre is just barely able to save with her dying breath), shaping him into the horrible rival we'd meet later, and also attacked his pregnant daughter and his son-in-law purely because they broke his Parental Marriage Veto, killing him and driving her into insanity, which would cause his soon-to-be granddaughter Sara to be pissed off at him forever. And after all of that? He organized and helped commit the horrible child hunts already mentioned, and later he kidnapped Julia (who had been taken in by Lewyn, and later by Seliph's army) and brainwashed her so she'd become his and Julius's Apocalypse Maiden. Go. To. HELL. Manfloy.

I THINK Hilda and Manfloy are on the page already, but the jury's out on Travant.

Manfloy's entry definitely needs a rewrite if we are to keep him. That entry is a lot larger than it needs to be.

edited 20th Apr '13 6:29:51 PM by Klavice

Sikes sounds like a keep. It's been a long while since I've read it, but I do remember past a certain point Monks basically recruits all the other villains, so it might be pertinent to note which if any of Sikes's misdeeds Monks signed off on. Can't recall myself.

I'd actually cut Hilda due to wanting to avenge her (admittedly plenty evil themselves) husband and son. Manfroy, though, is a solid keep. Take Nergal, strip away all his altruistic goals, and make him The Man Behind the Man to almost every country on the continent, and you have Manfroy. He doesn't even have the Freudian Excuse the other cultists do, nor does he think the cult's god is good like them; he knows it's evil and wants to summon it anyway.

edited 20th Apr '13 6:10:02 PM by HamburgerTime

@ Another Duck

I also don't understand what point you are trying to make. If you can provdie evidence to support your opinion I might be able to understand it better. Ambar was asking for the same thing. Also I would like to point out your accuasation "That's just lying, so please stop that" is unfounded and uncalled for. Someone not understanding your position and asking for clarification is not an attack on the person holding the position. This is a forum where the complete monster status of characters is debated requiring people of differing opinions provide evidence to support their side. This is used to allow people who may not have seen/read the work to be able to form an opinion. This is needed for the forum to move forward.

Well, it's been about a decade and a bit since I read it, I'd have to refresh my memory as well. (And in contrast to the Great Expectations examples, Sikes has a lot more "page time", so there would be more appearances to leaf through.) Still, this thread isn't going away any time soon, certainly not before I can re-read the relevant parts of the book.

edited 20th Apr '13 6:09:25 PM by mlsmithca

Somebody must really be fond of adding possible Complete Monsters to Fire Emblem, because I found more on the Akaneia page.

Here we have Lang, Gharnef, Dozer, and Judah, all of which are not only not on the page but also Zero Context Examples.

edited 20th Apr '13 6:13:09 PM by Klavice

Thank you Sophia. Having an opinion and having an argument, are not the same thing. An issue we've been having on and off, as I see it, is a small number of people throwing out opinions, without presenting evidence to back it up, and then latching onto one partial idea after another in an effort to validate the opinion in question. I've been proved wrong plenty of times in this forum. There have been times when my opinion has not matched the evidence, and other posters have pointed it out to me. And I accept that fact. The majority of people here, accept that fact. It's the only way we can get things done.

@mlsmithca

I could see Sykes qualifying, though I confess to being more familiar with the Oliver And Company version then with the actual book.

@Klavice

Lord that needs an edit.

edited 20th Apr '13 8:52:43 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Hilda...no. She didn't care for her family. Just the power they give her. Easy keep