Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

@11748: Since Sunlight Gardener loves his child I'd say cut. I think I'm kind of at the point that if an entry's just a stub, then it should be cut now and someone more familiar with it can bring up a rewrite later. For example, Dussander and Todd and the Sisters should just go since their entries literally say nothing they've done (I'm only familiar with the movie so I can't state if the sisters in the book are as bad).

Re Digimon: Cut Lilithmon (good qualities), Splashmon (Offscreen Villainy), Analogmon (less heinous than Kurata), Apollomon Whispered (impaired moral agency) and the D-Reaper (questionable moral agency).

@11773: Excellent entry for Suguo.

@11776: Agree on The Bloody Nine not counting for just being a side of Logen Ninefingers, not a character in his own right. Also agree that it sounds like Benna doesn't count. From what everyone has said about Bayaz, though, I'd vote for him if someone provided an entry.

@11790: I think that's a good start for Ka Anor's entry but I agree it feels like it should be longer.

@11793: Agree with including PoH and Johnny Black. They're a different flavor of monster from Suguo but no less evil.

@11861: Is Precia's goal still to revive her "real" daughter though? Because if it is I still think she'll have to be cut for caring about someone. As for Quattro and Jail, though, you've gotten me more on-the-fence about whether or not they count. I'll have to think more about them.

@11865: Much better entry for Berne. Thank you.

@11870: I agree with everything lightysnake said in regards to those Being Human examples.

Yes that's Aaron of Moor from Titus Andronicus. Thank you, I'll add your votes.

edited 19th Apr '13 8:58:28 PM by OccasionalExister

Sent Dr Pschyes example to the edit request page.

By Aaron of Moor is Aaron the Moor from Titus Andronicus meant? I would probably agree with cutting him- he's one of those 99% monsters I think, only redeemed by his love for his son.

Hmmmm in theory, loving his son to the point of being a Papa Wolf, and having a Morality Pet of any kind, should be in every way a total disqualification. But then again, consider his famous last words: "If one good deed in all my life I did / I do repent it from my very soul." If loving his son and fighting to protect him is to be considered a good deed, Aaron regrets it now. That 1% of non-monstrosity he had in him? Taken back. All gone.

Now one could argue that he's being all talk there, so maybe that's why the YMMV page says under Complete Monster: Depending on how it's played, Aaron could fit this. So basically, in literature he's too ambiguous to qualify. In theater, he could qualify if the actor plays those words of his before his death as dead seriously.

edited 19th Apr '13 9:47:18 PM by AnewMan

Here's a problem with Aaron...he doesn't...do that much next to everyone else...I mean put him next to Tamora, Titus, Charon and Demetrius...they're all much, much worse.

Speaking of literature, I found this on YMMV.Great Expectations (apologies for introducing yet another set of new examples when there are already so many on the go at once):

• Complete Monster: Orlick and Compeyson (especially Compeyson, who can be traced back to the source of all problems in the story.)
  • Also, Drummle

Leaving aside the fact that all three are Zero Context Examples, while they may be horrid people, Great Expectations isn't exactly a bright, sunlit world to begin with (it's Charles Dickens, what did you expect??). It's been quite some time since I read the book from start to finish, but taking them in order:

• Orlick is a cruel, jealous oaf, but his main act of actual villainy - attacking Pip's sister and leaving her a vegetable for the (short) remainder of her life - happens offscreen. He shows up later in the book intending to kill Pip as well, but doesn't actually succeed.
• Compeyson is probably a form of Magnificent Bastard, conspiring with Miss Havisham's half-brother Arthur to con her out of her fortune and leave her at the altar and trying to drag Magwitch down with him (literally, in their final confrontation), but, again, his worst crimes are only told in flashback by various characters (Herbert and Magwitch, I think) - he only appears in person in a few scenes and comes across more as a malevolent background presence between his two scuffles with Magwitch.
• And while Pip mentions in the epilogue that Drummle is an abusive husband to Estella, this, again, is largely told offscreen; when Pip encounters him in his "capacity" as a fellow ward of Jaggers and eventually as Estella's fiance, he is mostly just a brute and a bully, not a monster.

At the very least, they should be cut or commented out for being Zero Context Examples, but my first instinct would be to cut all three.

Okay, there's another example of a really, really bad movie that has an equally bad entry. It's The Condemned, and it lists three characters in order of increasing heinousness (warning bells right there): Saiga, Breckel, and McStarley. Saiga's a pretty easy cut, I should think, since he mostly just plays second fiddle to McStarley; McStarley himself by all accounts should qualify, being a Private Military Contractor sentenced to death row for raping and murdering an entire village and is responsible for most of the deaths in the film, but here's where the film's hypocritical terribleness comes in. The writers actually give him an asspull standards moment where he's shown to be grossed out by the audience of the webcast showing him killing everyone. The film is by and large a tract against violent movies, see. Despite being itself an extremely violent movie. So how's that for a Take That, Audience!? You like violent movies and you're literally worse than a mass-murdering, serial-raping mercenary. Oy.

Anyway, this leaves us with Breckel, and in my opinion he could qualify. He's the producer of the webcast where death row inmates like Saiga and McStarley (plus an obligatory wrongfully-convicted guy played by Steve Austin so we have someone to root for) fight each other to the death, murders his best friend when he objects, and gives McStarley unfair advantages over the other "contestants." Also, he admits all this on live TV and yet somehow isn't shipped off to death row himself. Like I said, bad, bad movie.

@Occasional Exister

You mean XaXa and Johnny Black? Because PoH hasn't done much (though if he ever does reappear, I can easily see him ending up here). Anyway, since the consensus seems to be going towards including them, I thought I'd do a pair of potential write-ups.

• Red Eyed XaXa (real name: Shoichi Shinkawa), one of the top three members of the Laughing Coffin Guild in SAO, and the Guild's Master Swordsman. During the Murder Investigation Arc in SAO, XaXa, alongside PoH, and Johnny Black ambushed and attempted to murder players Caynz, Yolko, and Schmitt; when Kirito intervened, the trio also tried to kill him. After making his way back to the real world, XaXa, bored, and seeking a way to kill again, took advantage of his younger brother Kyoji's fragile mental state, to convince Kyoji to create the online persona of Sterben/Death Gun in Gale Gun Online, ultimately hijacking Kyoji's desire to be "the strongest" for his own ends. Using Kyoji, and his old partner Johnny Black as aides, XaXa was able to arrange the murders of players Zekushiido, Usujio Tarako, Pale Rider, and Garret, before sending Kyoji to murder his own crush, Shino Asada. A sadist at heart, XaXa makes a point of crippling his opponents before delivering the coup de grace, and during his Sword Fight with Kirito in GGO does his best to cut him to ribbons, mocking him the entire time.

I focused most of this entry on XaXa's actions during GGO. Reading the light novel, you realise that as much as Kyoji goes on and on about how it was all his idea, he was XaXa's pawn the whole time. Kyoji insists he volunteered to kill Asada because he didn't want XaXa touching her, but given that he admits to not planning to kill her at all, then tries for a murder suicide, his word is questionable at best. Regardless, sending your brother to murder his own crush strikes me as pretty low.

• Johnny Black (real name: Atsushi Kanemoto), one of the top three members of the Laughing Coffin Guild in SAO. As the Guild's Master Poisoner, Johnny came up with a way to paralyse opponents so that they could then be tortured to death, and puts this poison into effect during his, XaXa, and PoH's attack on the members of the Golden Apple Guild. When discussing what they will do with the captured trio, Johnny expresses a desire to make them fight each other to the death, promising the survivor that he or she will be released; when PoH notes that Johnny will just kill the survivor, Johnny complains about how the Guild Leader has ruined the surprise. He subsequently attempts to poison Kirito when he comes to the Golden Apple trio's rescue. Escaping into the real world, Johnny was recruited by XaXa during the Death Gun murders, poisoning Pale Rider and Garret, before again making a getaway. He was finally arrested when, after having lain in wait for six months, he attacked Kirito and Asuna on the street, intending to inject them with poison from a syringe, and hospitalising Kirito. Unable to quit killing in the virtual world or the real world, Johnny is the show's definitive Psycho for Hire.

I didn't bother to mention the Kuradeel murders, as it's always possible (though I don't think it is likely) that Kuradeel got the poison from someone other then Johnny, or even made it himself. Not likely at all, but since it isn't confirmed either way, I didn't figure it was necessary. What Johnny wanted to do to the members of the Golden Apple Guild, his involvement in the Death Gun murders, and his final, totally unprovoked attempt at killing Kirito are among the worst things that anybody in the show has done.

In the interests of full disclosure, I will note that the actual poisoning of XaXa and Johnny's victims isn't shown. However, I don't think we can class it as Offscreen Villainy. In each case, Death Gun shoots the victim, and the next day, a corpse turns up. We see the murder, just not the exact method. Throw in the nature Johnny's attack on Kirito, Kyoji's attempt on Shino, and both of their detailed descriptions of how it worked, as well as the police report, and we've got a very clear and unsentimental depiction of just what went down.

edited 19th Apr '13 11:05:56 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Sorry, yes it was XaXa I meant not PoH.

S'all good. Do tell me what you think of the write-ups.

By the way, Occasional Exister, you misunderstood my concerns about Ma'ar. I was questioning whether he is intended to be seen as sympathetic, but I am now convinced that he is not. My vote is keep.

@Paireon:

I think Precia's final regret in the film highlights her emotions in the series the other way. It doesn't really show she was irredeemable, but rather, what she was actually considering. But that she's driven to madness because she lost her daughter does disqualify her in my opinion.

About Quattro's A Million Is a Statistic attitude, the same time she showed that was when she contrasted it against how many would be saved by what the doctor could do. Which may or may not be a lie, but if you consider that a lie, you should probably doubt the entire statement, and not just the part that suits your arguments. She's also loyal to her sisters, not just Jail. Not to-the-death loyal, but loyal. She did take the time to pick one of them up and fly away from Hayate's quite powerful spell, even if she was barely escaping herself.

Where do you get Jail's attitude from? There's nothing about that in the series proper, he doesn't seem to be on bad terms with them in the soundstage, and he wishes to arrange to pay respects for the anniversary of the death of one of them. If he really doesn't care about them, would he still bother with the pretense after they're dead?

I don't really mind any of them being labelled Complete Monster, but I just think they have too many redeeming factors.

@Ambar: Well, those two would be enough. In terms of killing people, XaXa and Johnny Black are not the worst. It doesn't really matter if it happens off-screen, since that still sets a standard for the story. I remain unconvinced. I just don't see how they differ significantly in flavour of heinousness from what's already there.

edited 19th Apr '13 11:25:16 PM by AnotherDuck

Offscreen Villainy doesn't count. So PoH's only countable crime is his participation in the attack on the Golden Apple Guild. And Kayaba's a bad comparison, because he kills nobody personally. He puts the players in the game, and waits to see what happens. He easily has the highest bodycount of any character in-series, but there's nothing personal or sadistic about it; in fact, Kayaba seems to expect people to enjoy the game. Contrast with XaXa and Johnny who are all about tormenting their victims.

For somebody who was all gung-ho about trying to include Kuradeel—who killed one person, tried to kill one more, and then died—you are oddly reluctant to include two characters who have the identical motivations, better fleshed out personalities, and a higher kill count. I'm still waiting for an actual explanation beyond "if Kuradeel doesn't count they can't". You've yet to explain how, as the villains of an entire arc, they don't stand out.

" I just don't see how they differ significantly in flavour of heinousness from what's already there."

From what's already where? And again, as compared to who? They're very different from Kayaba or Suguo in MO, goal, etc. The only other Psycho for Hire was Kuradeel, who doesn't come close to their bodycount. As compared to who or what?

I don't mind somebody disagreeing with me. I do mind when there is no clear answer as to why.

edited 19th Apr '13 11:32:50 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lighty: So after reading Hack/Slash, we've got that scientist, Guthrie, and Akakios? All 3 qualify? And only those 3?

The scientist's name is Rodin. Not only is he a murderer, but he also keeps sex slaves that he loans out for favors, among other nasty things.

For Ma'ar...solid keep here.

Now, for Being Human. God, this is a disaster area...

• Owen. Murderer, Domestic Abuser, Mind Rapist... unreliable landlord
• Also Kemp. Dead Little Sister excuse notwithstanding, he casually watches as a werewolf dies in the most gory manner imaginable, and persuades his accomplices to carry on with the work. For the unconvinced, his second series finale murdering of the psychic, of Lucy and of Annie in absolutely ice cold blood tipped him head first across the Moral Event Horizon.
• And then there's Herrick, who hasn't been shown as anything less than pure evil. Particularly so, as of episode 3.7; yes he killed MacNair in self defence, but he then proceeded to slaughter his way through an entire police armed response unit and terrorise Nina before brutally stabbing her in the kidney. His stated reason? People would say he'd gotten soft if he let them go.
  • Herrick deserves extra mention for having canonically been a monster before he was even a Vampire. He was turned into a Vampire by Hettie, while he was trying to sell her to a brothel. Hettie looks like a ten-year-old.
• Despite these examples, due to the nature of the show, it's kind of hard to label anyone a complete monster. It's more Black-and-Gray Morality.
  • You'd have a hard time arguing that now we've seen Kirby. To elaborate, Kirby is the ghost of a serial killer whose favoured method of killing was to seduce women by pretending to be great with kids and then murder the families once they trusted him. He turns the housemates against each other through manipulation and literally Breaks The Cutie (as in, into pieces) with Annie before performing a celebratory Happy Dance and immediately attempting to murder a baby.
• Hal used to be one of these. He broke Cutler after turning him by asking him to kill his wife and, when Cutler refused, killing her himself and getting Cutler to drink her blood. In an alternate future, Hal is basically vampire Hitler.
• Cutler does a similar trick to Hal involving Alex, helps in the plot to take over the world, threatens a woman's children to blackmail her, and rips her throat out when he finds her to be a nuisance.
• The Old Ones. They want to take over the world and subjugate humanity for fun. Mr Snow is a clear cut irredeemable bastard.
• Mitchell leans towards this, especially after the Box Tunnel 20 Massacre.
• Finally, we can add the Devil to this list (not that anyone should be surprised). He wants to split the world into four super-nations, one of which will be killed off completely, one of which will be infected with pestilence, one of which will become a constant warzone and one of which will be subject to abject famine. Why? He liked the Four Horsemen reference, that's all.

Okay, for those who don't know, Being Human is a show about a vampire, a werewolf and a ghost who are roommates.

- Owen...no, cut. Owen is the one who murdered the ghost, Annie, because he thought she was cheating on him (she wasn't). He has no redeeming features at all, but he's nowhere near as nasty as the supernatural monsters

- Kemp: Iffy. Kemp's excuse is he came home to find vampires feeding on his family, and repelled them. He's a brutal Knight Templar and murderer, but I haven't seen it in a long time to know if he even cared for his family or if he's just a Fantastic Racist. I'll cut for now, but we can come back to him later.

- Herrick. Oh, absolute keep. Herrick is as nasty as vampires get. He was also evil as a human, given he was turned trying to sell a child to a brothel. (his sire looks about ten). Herrick's got plenty of nasty murders and he absolutely delights in trying to make his fledgling Mitchell embrace his dark side.

- Kirby...yes. Serial killer in death, attempted baby murderer in death.

- Hal. CUT CUT CUT. Hal is one of the heroes. (in season 4, the original cast left the show and a new vamp/werewolf/ghost trio replaced them) and The Atoner many times

- Cutler: insufficient heinousness.

-The Old Ones. Group, cut. That said, their leader Mr. Snow is a good candidate. In the 'bad future' he's basically Vamp Hitler, an much more powerful and far reaching than Herrick.

- Mitchell. DEAR GOD NO. Mitchell is the hero of the show...well, sorta. The circumstances are complex...Mitchell in BH is a blood addict and while he tries to contain himself, it never works. When he gives in, it results in bloodshed because he's held back. In season 2 he and a vampire named Daisy lose control and slaughter the entire group of passengers in a train car. Mitchell, however, feels horrible later and it's one of the key things that leads to his choosing his own death

- The Devil/Mr. Hatch. Unfortunately, while Mr. Hatch is evil enough, it's stated that God created him that way to test and tempt humanity.

edited 20th Apr '13 12:05:31 AM by Lightysnake

So you could basically have a world where everyone brutally kills everyone, but since it's only in the backstory, the one person who's actually shown brutally killing someone is a Complete Monster, because everything else is just Offstage Villainy?

You don't understand my opinion, I don't understand yours. Let's leave it at that. And don't call me gung-ho; I really don't care that much.

edited 20th Apr '13 12:00:40 AM by AnotherDuck

Exactly. We might run into issues with relative heinousness, but if only one person is shown doing the stuff...

I'm disillusioned. That's completely ignoring the setting.

Here's my issue...it seems they two guys are worse in various ways...more evil deeds to their names, more nastiness and elaborate cruelty

@mlsmithca: about YMMV.Great Expectations:

• I agree with cutting Drummle and Oreyson.
• I'm undecided on Orlick. He might be a keep. (I don't recall precisely how he's played exactly in the story.)

edited 20th Apr '13 2:34:57 AM by XFllo

Alright, after doing some thinking, here's my last argument as to why I don't think Sundowner from Metal Gear Rising Revengeance counts as a Complete Monster.

In game, Sundowner kills two bodyguards and one unarmed civillian (President N'nami). Compared to other villians, Jetstream Sam kills at least one bodyguard and engages in combat with many more, the mooks kill some bodyguards and other mooks are in the process of executing a civillian (which happens at five different points in the game with different mooks and civillians). So in terms of onscreen bodycount Sundowner has the largest, which speaks to how few non-villians appear in a combat situation in the game. Still, he either has the largest or is tied with Jetstream Sam (who doesn't count for various reasons).

The next thing being marked against him is the program of kidnapping children, stripping their brains from their bodies and putting them in VR simulations to basically indoctrinate them into being child soldiers, based off what Solidus Snake from Metal Gear Solid 2 did in the series background except without the removing of children's brains and using real-life situations instead of VR, which our Protagonist Raiden was a victim of (note, Solidus is not a Complete Monster either due to various other reasons not related to Rising).

The problem is that Sundowner's role in that plot is utterly undefined. He's not the one behind the program, World Marshall (a PMC company) and and it's benefactor are, with said benefactor paying the bills and directing the program. Sundowner's not the one kidnapping kids or operating on them, he's not the one who bosses the scientist responsible around, or pays the bills, and the VR is conducting by World Marshall, whereas Sundowner works for Desperado, which is a smaller PMC but is currently answering to World Marshall's current benefactor.

So I don't think you can mark the child soldier training program against him on account of it being planned, funded and executed by someone else.

So that just leaves his general irredemability. He's a Blood Knight and enjoys keeping war going so he can continue to make a living off of it. Such a goal isn't unique to him (since it's Biss Boss' goal for the original two Metal Gear games, Liquid Snake's and Liquid Ocelot's goal for their respective games, etc.). With the other Complete Monster entries, The Patriots may not even be sentient (and I still maintain that they have no business being on the list, but I got outvoted on that one) and Volgin's goal wasn't to make a soldier's paradise but to increase his own power and crush the west (I'm unfamilar with the Ac!d villian to comment).

So he's pretty bad, but half of what is attributed to him is someone else's doing that only has his nod of approval with no input, and he falls short of Volgin's level of heniousness. Could he do worse? I'd say he could since in his first appearance there are several more civillians in the area (albiet off-camera, but they were in the limo he kidnapped the president from) but he only kills the bodyguards protecting his target and ignores the other easy kills, and in his next appearance he holds the brain of one of the kidnapped kids ominiously...then puts it back in it's case. He could have crushed it without negatively effecting World Marshall's plans since there are hundreds of brains in that room alone, and the program was still planning to kidnap a lot more children so it was replaceable. He's even considerate enough to go up to the roof so you can fight without putting any of the brains at risk, compared to the smarter move of fighting in that room to force Raiden to hold back lest he kill any of the kids.

So in my view, he could be a lot worse and henious.

But if somebody is the most heinous character, does the fact that they could be even more heinous disqualify them?

No.

Actually, the video recording Raiden finds in the underground labs mentions that Sundowner was personally responsible for picking the program used for the brainwashing. The scientist in charge of brain-extraction applauds him for his 'work'. He's a lot more involved in the 'recruitment' procedure than you suggest - Armstrong provides funding and general directions, whilst Sundowner manages the details and bullies people into making it happen. This is made quite clear in both that video and in the sequence where Raiden confronts him in World Marshall HQ.

It's also important to remember that Armstrong didn't create Desperado, but merely employed their services for his own goals. Their War for Fun and Profit agenda and the chaos it's created was Sundowner's idea - Armstrong just came along and pointed them in specific directions.

As for not killing the kids or seeking to endanger them, remember that greed is Sundowner's primary motive, and the children are a valuable resource. He fondles that brain like a miser with a bar of gold. There's no altruism in it, only sick, anticipatory joy at what he's creating.

edited 20th Apr '13 4:33:10 AM by Iaculus

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but has anyone taken a look at Phantasmagoria 2? It contains these Complete Monster examples:

• Complete Monster:
  • Doctor Marek, for torturing Curtis Craig, for treating his patients like their lives mean nothing, for using Doctor Harburg as a pawn, and for sending his own patients to their deaths as guinea pigs for Paul Allen Warner's experiment.
  • Paul Allen Warner, for murdering Curtis's father because he objected to the direction the experiment went in, for making his employees come to work the next day after one of their own was murdered, for treating Curtis like a guinea pig and not a human being, for sending Curtis through the dimensional portal, for using the dimension to create illegal drugs through his own pharmaceutical company, for bragging to Curtis about what he had done with smug satisfaction and not a flicker of remorse, and so on. Paul Allen Warner is simply so vile and repulsive that he totally deserved his ultimate fate (see the Body Horror entry).
  • Finally, the Hecatomb, for murdering five people (that is shown; it is strongly implied that there were more), and for traumatizing Curtis Craig in ways that Doctor Marek and Paul Allen Warner did not. However, the Hecatomb also has Tragic Monster mixed in there, due to events described in the Tomato in the Mirror entry in the main article.

Do any of these three really qualify?

edited 20th Apr '13 5:16:11 AM by TiggersAreGreat

No offense, but does anyone here think that Babidi should be cut for a Dragonball complete monster?

I noticed that fans don't hate him for the awful things he did, but they hate him for non-villainous things like being "annoying" and bratty, and never see him as evil as much as Frieza, Cell, or Buu.

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but still....