During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oZqSaba34o
Marquis de Sade
What is the work?
Waxwork, a 1988 horror-comedy that's about a group of teens who visit a waxwork built by a seemingly immortal (or not) man hellbent on world domination. The wax figures include many iconic horror villains, who were apparently once real people (or non-people) In-Universe.
Who is he?
Certainly everyone here knows about the Marquis de Sade? The libertine author of Justine, Juliette, and 120 Days of Sodom. Works so obscene and perverse that even I wouldn't touch them with a 100,000 foot pole. Here, though, he's given a Historical Villain Upgrade and is made into one of the most evil people who ever lived, and is sort of the Big Bad Wannabe, while being surprisingly more revolting than the actual Big Bad.
What did he do?
Sarah, the deuteragonist and later Mark's love interest, finds herself obsessing over him. Her fascination comes back to bite her in the ass HARD late into the movie when she is entranced by his sculpture and walks onto the set and into his world, where she is captured and tied up while de Sade whips her repeatedly to bring her to orgasm, all the while promising to hand her over to the Prince of England when she's done "to be used like the whore [she is]." And knowing what I know of his works, that would probably be entail something really nasty. He's also shown to have an entire harem of women, presumably who received the same treatment as Sarah and have developed an attachment to their "master". Eventually, he's told that Sarah will die if he beats her again. This doesn't fetter him at all.
After Mark escapes a horde of zombies, he walks into de Sade's world and tries to get Sarah — who has developed the same Stockholm Syndrome as the rest of his harem — out of there, all the while calling him out on his cowardice for "being afraid of a fair fight and only beating up little girls." With some persuasion and revealing to Sarah that Your Mind Makes It Real, the two flee and de Sade vows revenge against Mark for humiliating him.
Towards the end, after David Lincoln (the Big Bad) throws a couple of Mark's friends James and Gemma (who previously had fled the waxwork at the beginning after being creeped out) into the zombie exhibit and the de Sade exhibit, respectively meant for Mark and Sarah, it's shown the de Sade succeeded in killing Gemma. Once Lincoln's sculptures come to life, de Sade lives up to his vow and fences with Mark, eventually cornering him, and Sarah kills him by chucking an axe at his back.
Heinous standard?
Now, this is a movie that features vampires (including Dracula himself), werewolves, zombies, Starfish Aliens, mummies, killer lumberjacks, etc. And the Big Bad, although he murdered Mark's grandfather at the beginning and wants to unleash his creations upon the world, is more of a Generic Doomsday Villain than anything and also has a Pet the Dog moment after yelling at his servant for killing a police detective.
How seriously is he played?
Yes, this IS a horror-comedy. It's meant to be funny. But whereas most of the other baddies have their funny or comedic moments, de Sade is a Knight of Cerebus, and his promises to turn Sarah over to the Prince of England — while maybe over the top — are not Played for Laughs. Sarah almost ended up broken or dead because of him, and in the worst way possible in a movie filled with gruesome deaths.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
Nope. He's an even bigger prick here than he was in Real Lifenote
Final Verdict
Hmmmm ... I say keeper. What about you guys?
edited 16th Feb '17 8:40:59 AM by Stellarvore
Planeswalker
Hey guys, I've finally done a writeup for Innominat. I tried to keep it as spoiler free as possible, that's why it took as long as it did.
Innominat the Suppressor, a powerful Empyrean, mind rapes the entire malak population, turning them into Soulless Shells and slaves for the human population of the world. He takes great pleasure in both physically and psychologically torturing several victims, including the pirate Aifread and Velvet. When he gains enough power to do so he begins to Mind Rape humans into the same state as malakim, forcing anyone who’d ever sinned to commit Psychic-Assisted Suicide. He has no care for his followers, and when his uncle is killed he does not even shed a tear over him, instead taking a tantrum over being hungry.
edited 16th Feb '17 8:47:49 AM by PhiSat
Oissu!
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Marquis. Most of his acts are based on what we know from history but are offscreen. Only other thing he does onscreen is whip her. Also, he seemed to be somewhat honorable given each time the protagonist dropped his sword when they were fighting, he'd give it back to him to play fair, or something like that I believe.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
To the Drafts please.
Lizzid people!
The issue with the Marquis is the heinous standard. He's one of an ensemble of thirteen of the most evil people in history, all of whom, through the Waxworks, are seen claiming a victim. While he is going to whip the heroine to death, he only gives the hero back the sword to prove he's better than him in all way, so no real redeeming qualities.
It's just that most of what he does is offscreen villainy in the film, and he's firmly outheinousned by Lincoln, the Big Bad of the film...and Lincoln seems to care about one of his men.
Marquis, not because of the heinous standard (a pattern seems to be established), but because it sounds like he's a construct and not the real deal, so his agency is questionable.
YMMV page sweep P:
- Complete Monster: Comes up less frequently than you might expect in a horror podcast, but it does happen. Episode 520 'Dermot' gives a very well done example in the title character, who is far, far worse than the actual monsters in the story.
Borderline ZCE.
Planeswalker
Friend, Curwen, Satan. Abstaining on Marquis.
Ah, point taken.
Yes to Satan. No to de Sade.
Caesar
Gonna say "No' to De Sade for the reasons listed by Lighty.
Alrighty, next up from my Tim Powers binge, from the novel Last Call, meet Georges Leon. Not AS sure on him as am the former two, but I figure he's worth bringing up.
(Quick note: Powers has an OBSESSION with Immortality Immorality and Fat Bastard villains. Of the three books I have read so far, ALL have featured these tropes. Rather bizarre choices for Author Appeal, but oh well.)
Who is he?
Georges Leon is the Big Bad of the novel Last Call, a novel that can be best described as "High-stakes card games FOR YOUR SOULS!"
Daniel D'Arby, anyone?
What has he done?
Leon is the member of a secretive organization that deals in magic card games where people are assigned astrological signs and the like as their "rank" in the society. Leon desires to be the "Fisher King", the TOP dog of the organization.
Along with this, Leon greatly desires, what else, immortality, and by JOVE if he hasn't found a way to do it!
See, Leon's devised a way to use the card magic used throughout his society to tear out the souls any of his offspring, now or in the future, swallow them up in a magic abyss (Portrayed as the Fate Worse than Death it is), then inhabit their bodies at his leisure.
Now then, the novel opens with Leon spending time with his family, consisting of 5 year old Scott, 18 year old Richard, and his own wife. However, not all is as it seems, as Richard was Leon's first claimed soul after he hit a certain age, and Leon now uses his eldest's body as a meat puppet to keep watch over his possessions.
Leon also has recently assassinated numerous high ranking members of his society, before doing in the current Fisher King himself, leaving Leon as the best candidate for King-dom.
When Leon attempts to perform his soul jacking ritual on the 5 year old Scott as well to give himself another body to possess, he has a gun pulled on him by his wife, who has realized what he did to Richard and plans to do to Scott.
Leon, being the upstanding father he is, grabs Scott and uses him as a human shield, smugly taunting his wife about it. Too bad for Leon that 5 year olds aren't very big, leaving plenty of space open to be shot....very unfortunate places...
Leon's wife shoots him in his exposed groin area, shredding his...netheregions, and flees with Scott as Leon flings magic cards at her, succeeding only in putting out one of Scott's eyes.
With his plans to continuously propagate children whose souls he could steal now destroyed because of his....predicament, Leon devises another way to accomplish his goals: By tricking card players into wagering their very status as someone's child, Leon can technically proclaim them his children, ergo making them susceptible to his soul jacking plans.
Leon proceeds to do just this at a card game, successfully beating close to half a dozen people then claiming ownership over their souls....however, due to some weird Mumbo Jumbo magic hard to explain, he has to wait around 20 years to collect, and during that time, his debtees' lives will utterly fall apart, with their loves ones dying, animals getting into "accidents", and just all around bad luck plaguing them for the two decades until Leon steals their souls and inhabits their bodies.
Now, more than 20 years pass, and Leon has successfully stolen the bodies of those half-dozen people, their lives horribly ruined beforehand, and immediately begins using them to set up another card game, planning to basically continue this cycle for as long as he wants, staying forever immortal.
Throughout the novel, Leon has anyone who could stand in his way, even those completely unaware he even exists (Prophecies and all that), murdered, his own henchmen included just for knowing too much, and notably has a woman prophesied to stand against him murdered, with orders to kill her baby daughter as well to prevent any survivors of her line, however the daughter survives and later becomes a major hero against him (SHOCKER!) He attempts this same crime on the daughter when she is grown up, along with HER child.
As Leon begins his next poker game, he notices that one of the players reminds him very much of his lost son, Scott, but of course it's not him (It is. He's The Hero.), and continues to try and trick innocents out of their souls.
Scott manages to manipulate Leon into betting his own birthright thingy, and, after winning it, grants it to Leon's original body, a now decrepit, wheelchair bound body that is completely, blabbering insane (Not having a soul inside you because it ditched you for other bodies will do that). Leon was forced to keep it preserved all these years because, if his original body fails, his soul will die as well (He planned to surgically remove his old body's heart then leave it alone alive for as long as possible while he basically continued living in other bodies).
Leon spends his last moments screaming insanity about his past as all of the souls he had stolen fighting back plus being forced back into his original body drives him off the deep end, before his body finally dies from old age, ending his reign of soul stealing terror.
None. Leon is just a selfish man obsessed with power and living forever.
Other redeeming features?
Here's where any hesitations will spawn from.
First up, in the opening chapter where he plans to soul jack the infant Scott, Leon notes that he has actually grown to care for the boy, and takes a moment to consider the possibility of just forgetting his plans and running off with his wife and sons (One of whom is already a meat puppet, but still).
Leon proceeds to shrug it off, states he's come too far and cares too much about his own power to turn back now, and goes right back to being a smug little prick who would not only steal his child's soul, but also use him as a human shield while snarking about it.
It's a rather....complicated thing, really. I mean, after this opening scene? Leon never fondly recalls Scott or anything, showing nothing but anger that his original plan was stripped away from him, but still...him actively saying "Wow, I just realized how much I care about this kid. Maybe it's not too late...." COULD be a bit too redeeming, even though he DOES follow it up with basically "Nah, I'm in too deep now."
Next up, his friendship with his Dragon, Vaughan Trumbill. This seems.... oddly amicable, as they chat each other up often, get lunch together while discussing their plans, and all that good stuff. Trumbill has even made Leon promise to bury him in a very specific way should he ever die.
However....Leon's thought process reveals it's not as amicable as first thought, as his internal thoughts reveal he is often disgusted by his compatriots' fat, slovenly manner, believes him incompetent in numerous tasks, and just all around doesn't show actual care.
Heck, even when Trumbill is killed on a mission they both knew it was highly possible, Leon's thought process consists of nothing but an annoyed "Where are you when I ACTUALLY need you, Vaughan?"
And that's it. Leon never mentions Trumbill again, despite knowing he is for all intents and purposes dead, and continues being a Faux Affably Evil little prick as if nothing serious has changed in his life. As for the burial thing, Leon is never shown to get around to it. This is probably because it's never revealed if he even knows where Trumbill's body is (He was killed out in a desert", but it's still rather telling that he wasn't freaking out more that he couldn't find his body to bury it in the exact way Trumbill had discussed.
So that's another hard one. When he's around Trumbill, they seem friendly enough, so I could see some interpreting it as a Villainous Friendship, but Leon seems to view Trumbill as more of a highly competent operative to chat with rather than a genuine friend. Especially seeing as Leon has stated that he really cares for no one but himself.
Heinousness?
Worst in-story as the Big Bad.
Easily passes the baseline with his soul jacking schemes, notable especially since his first targets were his own children.
Final Verdict?
Eh....I'm gonna stay neutral for now. The potential redeeming features about him are rather complex, and while the novel itself doesn't treat Leon with any form of sympathy or redemptive aspects, I can see how someone would think those qualities listed are just a bit TOO possibly redeeming, so I'll leave it up to the thread as always.
edited 16th Feb '17 11:47:37 AM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm unsure. That whole work just seems weird. And that's not even mentioning the "Scott manages to manipulate Leon into betting his own birthright thingy." Wut.
Caesar
Whole thing makes more sense in context, and I tried to lay it all out as best I could while keeping it as condensed as possible, but that didn't do much, I can see. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
For that particular question , Leon's current and only youthful body was decaying and the game was taking too long, so, with a little prodding from Scott, he ditched all the foreplay with him, knowing he knew the truth, and went straight to "Playing for souls!" in a final attempt to end the game and potentially get his new bodies faster
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I've read that, too. Yes to Leon.
The guy's an egotist. He doesn't have 'real' relationships based on genuine care.
Yes to Satan and Leon.
Anyway, I've been talking about possibly proposing a candidate, but after reviewing the work he was from, I'm gonna have to retract my statement.
It would take way, WAY too long to explain (It's a WEIRD manga like I said), but I was going to propose an unnamed cult leader villain from the manga Hellstar Remina, but after re-aquainting myself with it, it became clear that due to its Humans Are Bastards moral and the downright savage nature humanity as a whole displays, nobody really counts.
edited 16th Feb '17 1:18:12 PM by FriedWarthog
to Georges Leon.
leon, abstain on marquis
edited 16th Feb '17 1:53:53 PM by Mediawatcher
Wild Child
Leon.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So I started American Vampire. Currently in "The Devil in the Sand" storyline. I like it so far, but I'm curious as to how Drac and the Trader fit into this.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I'm trying to take a break from these effortposts. Think I may be getting a little reckless with them. And while I'm at it, I'll have to read Until They Bring the Streetcars Back again so I can make something resembling a decent writeup for Otto. But I'm wondering, could Hevnoraak count? I know that posting that link may defeat the purpose of writing an effortpost (not saying I won't do one, just that the Wiki article says about as much about him as an effortpost would), but I'd like to know before I make one.
I will say, though, knowing that dragon cults have at least some sort of agency (like Vahlok, the only one who could be even remotely considered a good guy), and Hevnoraak and Rahgot are both pretty bad, even for Dragon Priests. Most of their heinousness is offscreen, but in-game materials and visuals don't really spare many details about them. I know that was the case for Vlaew as well, so I'm just wondering.
edited 16th Feb '17 6:07:15 PM by Stellarvore
No, I'm pretty sure every Dragon Priest, Hevnoraak included, fails to qualify because of major concerns of off-screen villainy. And none of them are saints, mind you... Rahgot, the one you compared, forced his entire cult to commit mass suicide. Including the children. He stills fails because that all occurred a long, long time before the plot started and the closest we get to it being on-screen is some abstract illustrations of it on the tomb's walls, if I recall correctly.
edited 16th Feb '17 6:20:59 PM by Scraggle
Yeah, that's why I was also strongly considering doing one for him. Though to be fair, a lot of them don't even have backstories, except that Ahzidal's family was murdered, and Otar the Mad — while also being one of the worst of the Priests — is, well ... mad.
edited 16th Feb '17 6:27:54 PM by Stellarvore
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Satan.
Why so serious?