During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Wild Child
First of all, this needs to be resolved.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Damus.
Regarding MLP, while I seriously doubt anyone is going to qualify, I'd say the one who has the biggest shot of counting in the future is Chrysalis.
Why so serious?
Easy to Damus.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
At least they finally had a villain reject the opportunity to redeem themselves.
Also, Gerald Damus.
edited 28th Oct '16 11:08:52 AM by Camberf
A bit belated, but I'm voting no on Nitro. I don't think he passes the Marvel universe's heinousness standard when his worst action is more callous indifference than deliberate.
Lizzid people!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Demus I think. I found a low-quality version of the film online, and can't figure out why he doesn't just drop the baby anyway, but whatever.
I am thinking of bringing up a candidate, but I have to know, can a short video on You Tube have a candidate?
jjj
As long as it's an actual film, sure.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@Clown-Face: Even though there aren't many votes, everyone who has voted has unanimously picked Shoichi, so I think we got our image.
Demus.
@ Lightysnake: Oh, there are a few folks I've suggested who didn't make it, such as Dwight Renfield and Sid 6.7. I'm sure we all have.
YMMV.Garo lists this zero context example in addition to the entry that we approved who probably wasn't discussed here:
- Complete Monster: The Big Bad of season 1, the evil, power-hungry Barago, was once a member of the Makai Knights who are dedicated to defend humanity from the demonic Horrors. Nearly every horrible thing in the series can be traced back to Barago. He made the innocent heroine of the series into a vessel for a demonic being known as Messiah, which would allow Messiah to consume both the girl and then the world (for nothing more than his personal gain). He murdered series hero Kouga's father, and The Lancer Rei's family to manipulate them further in the future. To prove he has no attachment to humanity or human beings, Barago cuts down a mirage of his own mother to prove that his family means less to him than power. Barago is willing to allow humanity be devoured for his own gain, and carelessly uses and discards whoever is in his way. When one hero begs Barago to remember why he once joined the order of the Makai Knights, Barago's only response is to coldly say he can't even remember.
- The Monster of the Week in episode 21 of Makai no Hana. Raiga was NOT amused.
edited 28th Oct '16 1:24:38 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
The Unknown Unknown
Demus.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, that one was not approved. Tousei and Mendoza were the only others besides Barago.
to Gerald Damus.
Okay that's five and Zero ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Ricky Hanson.
Okay my fifth and probably final candidate from the New Tricks is Annabel Skinner from Season Ten’s “Little Brother”; which was also Brian Lane’s last appearance in the series.
Who is she:
Annabel Skinner is a former accomplice of Larry Gofton AKA Laurence Archer, a notorious Con artist and criminal. Together they conspired to steal rich businesswoman Florence Epstein’s money. To set up the crime, Gofton became a patient of Florence’s husband Jonathan (he was a dentist), then introduced him to Annabel. He also set Peter Sale up to be Florence’s accountant.
Annabel seduced Jonathan, until he was so in love with her that he agreed to kill Florence and steal her money, believing they would use it to run off together. They imprisoned and tortured Florence until she gave up her bank account details. Then they murdered her with a hammer.
Once she no longer needed him Annabel turned Jonathan over to the police and ran for it. However in a case of irony, Gofton double crossed her and Sale, and ran off with the money.
Furious Annabel brutally strangled Sale’s sister, Margaret Kirby (due to Margaret having a spinal degenerative disease, this was especially vicious as she managed to outright snap Margaret’s neck), and hid the body in a storage container belonging to Sale. She then stole Margaret’s identity and began searching for Gofton and Sale, wanting revenge for being cheated out of the money.
What does she do:
After six years of searching she managed to track down Gofton but couldn’t find any trace of Sale. So she devised a plan to manipulating people more capable at detection than her to find him for her. First she purposely got herself acquainted with Ester Lane, Brian’s wife, by joining her book club and then staging a chance meeting. Through Ester she met up with Brian (who had recently been forced to leave UCOS) and asked him to try and find Sale, claiming she wanted to see her "brother" because her son had recently had a baby and wanted him to know he was now an uncle.
She also called the police giving them an anonymous tip that Gofton was now using the name Laurence Archer, thus getting UCOS on the trail as Gofton was behind multiple unclosed cases. Brian managed to track down Archer, but Skinner had been following him and beat him to the address. There she strangled Gofton was a cord, and set up the next clue, a notebook containing his company’s name (a front), for Brian to find.
Brian arrived to find Gofton’s body and the book. Skinner proceeded to bludgeon him over the head from behind and stole back the book before escaping. (Fitting with the series relative realism, it averted a Tap on the Head with Brian only being unconscious for five minutes yet needing a medical examination and still being somewhat impaired a whole day later).
Still impersonating Margaret, Skinner met up with Brian and Ester for the update, and put on an act about being so sorry for getting him involved in something potentially dangerous. She also pretended to have met Gofton (in the persona of Archer) and Annabel Skinner.
She was later brought in by UCOS to discuss developments, still keeping her Margaret act she retold the majority of the information she told Brian. But taking what they said, she put the idea that Annabel Skinner was hunting Sale in their heads, and acting the concerned sister urged them to find him as his life was in danger.
Following the clues she had left for him Brian managed to discover Margaret’s decaying body. Taking it into the Police, they were fooled into believing she was Annabel, due to Skinner stashing her identity bracelet with the body thus duping them into thinking Sale must be the murderer.
Having searched everywhere and still failing to find anything on him, they realised that the only explanation was that Peter Sale must be in witness protection (hence why Skinner had been unable to find him) and finally managed to track him down. That night Brian and Ester gave Skinner the updates on all they had discovered. While pretending to be sad, Skinner finally had her target.
The next day she followed Sandra and Steve MacAndrew to Sale, planning to strangle him as soon as they realised he couldn’t be the killer and left. However Brian realised the body he had found was really Margaret’s, and that Skinner had fooled them. Realising her plan he managed to warn Sandra and Steve, as well as alert the local police.
Seeing the police arrive, Skinner snuck off into a churchyard. However Brian spotted her and gave case. Trying to follow them Sandra, Steve and Gerry led the other cops to begin searching the churchyard and surrounding area for her.
While they were distracted Skinner instead doubled back to Sale’s house. To get inside she disabled the officer on guard (it’s not clear if she killed him or just knocked him out cold. We only see him lying face down on the grass).
Once inside she assaulted Sale attempting to murder him as well (for context sake Peter Sale is an elderly man who had the same serious debilitating spinal disorder as his sister, leaving with a weak body and in a wheelchair), but was interrupted by Brian entering Sale’s house.
Sneaking up behind him, Skinner tried to strangle Brian, and came dangerously close to killing him, when she was attacked by Ester from behind, disabling her and saving Brian. Skinner was arrested.
Any Freudian Excuse or redeeming traits:
Absolutely none. She wants revenge for being cheated out of money which she stole by torturing and murdering an innocent woman; and to top it off, she also wants to kill Peter Sale despite him being only an accountant and being cheated as well.
Now it’s possible she believes he was in on the deal, but considering she knows he was forced into witness protection (basically he was led to believe the money would be used to repay a debt he and Gofton had with a pair of dangerous gangsters, when Gofton ran off his only choice was to testify against them and abandon his entire life), it’s not likely. And besides even if he was, it wouldn’t justify her wanting to murder him.
Now in her Margaret persona Skinner comes across as a gentle, sweet kind lady. Who is a caring sister, and concerned friend. But it’s entirely an act, all so she can track down Sale. A pretty impressive performance and a great Wolf in Sheep's Clothing act sure, but nothing but that.
While pretending to be Margaret she takes every opportunity given to describe herself as a horribly unpleasant woman, who you could tell from the way she looked at you had something “fundamentally nasty about her”. Save perhaps some unnecessary prompting, this provides no real assistance to her plans, and suggests a disturbing level of self-awareness about (or even pride in) what sort of person she is.
Heinous Standard:
Skinner murdered three people (possibly four), all through pretty violent methods. While it’s not clear whether it was her or Jonathan who delivered the killing blows to Florence, its heavily implied it was her as she proves to be a brutal murderer while Jonathan comes across as a lovesick sap (to the point that he’s still deeply in love with her and refuses to believe she was only using him or betrayed him even after leaving him to rot in prison for six years) and honestly a surprising nice guy considering. Regardless though, the fact Florence died was down to her.
Three (possibly four) murders and two attempted murders, puts Skinner well above the majority of the shows antagonists.
Of her group she easily comes across as the worst. Now Goftman was a thief and a conman sure, but almost all of what he did falls into off-screen villainy, and even then its robberies and cons. Apart from with Florence there is no mention of him being involved in any other deaths, and even in this case he had nothing to do with physically killing Florence.
Sale was, according to him, just the accountant who set up the offshore bank account and transferred the money. He claimed to have no idea what the other two were doing, or anything to do with Florence’s death (we know for a fact he wasn’t physically involved with killing her). Even if he’s lying about knowing what they were doing, he still comes across a lot better than Skinner.
Off-Screen Villainy:
Not a problem. We see plenty of graphic photos of what she did to Florence. We see Margaret’s broken rotting body, with an in-depth examination of severe fracture to her neck Skinner killed her with. We see Goftman’s freshly murdered corpse, complete a lingering close up on the marks around his neck where she strangled him; and we get to watch as she tries to strangle Brian.
The only thing that is off screen for Skinner is how she seduced Jonathan, and we still see the effects of that, with Jonathan still being under her spell years after she dropped him in the drink.
Conclusion:
I think Annabel Skinner is a keeper. She’s a brutal homicidal woman, a talented liar and actress whose only motivations are Greed and unjustifiable vengeance.
Still what do you think, does she count or not?
edited 28th Oct '16 1:55:30 PM by MGD107
It's an animated short about Bluebeard. It can be seen here. I won't bother with an effort post since it's only about 6 minutes long, instead, I will sum up what Bluebeard does and why I think there might be enough of a difference from the original to warrant discussion.
The short starts with Bluebeard giving a woman a necklace with four heart symbols on it and asking for her hand in marriage. She accepts, and they are married. When they arrive at Bluebeard's mansion, he tells his wife that she can unlock all of the rooms except one, stating that it must never be opened and that he has the key with him at all times. Three months later, Bluebeard is about to leave on a journey. He tells his wife this. While they are kissing, she pickpockets the key from him. After he goes out the door, she takes the key and unlocks the room. Inside, she finds a bunch of balconies. Traveling to the top, she finds a mirror. This is a Magic Mirror that shows skulls in the heart symbols on her necklace, revealing that Bluebeard murders his wives and creates heart necklaces as gifts for his new wives, adding one heart for each wife he kills. Bluebeard than appears (presumably having noticed that his key was missing before he could fully leave), and he kills her by ripping her heart out of her bare chest. The Stinger reveals that he is presenting a necklace with five heart symbols on it to his sixth wife.
I think this version might differ enough from the original to warrant discussion. The magic mirror and the heart necklaces are exclusive to this version, and this version has a The Bad Guy Wins ending. Another change is that the wife actually steals the key from him. I'm uncertain about it since it's an animated You Tube short, but that's why I am asking about it.
jjj
Not sure about this. Quoting FAQ:
- OK, there's one thing you need to consider: Does the film have a substantive plot? By this, we mean a plot that's more than "depraved person tortures people For the Evulz."
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Skinner and Damus
edited 28th Oct '16 3:12:53 PM by G-Editor
And frankly, his track record on this is very poor.
I'll throw in a for Damus.
Well that was rude.
Plan to propose the first Halloween post tonight, or tomorrow with several others.
damus and skinner
Wild Child
Damus.
Also, I have a couple things to say regarding the Warrior Cats examples. First of all, I think the entries are pretty bad, with lines "Scourge is probably the worst" and "Don't feel too bad for Tigerstar though." I don't think CM entries should be compared to each other like that.
Second of all...I think Tigerstar should be cut. Now, I haven't read this series, but we have these entries on his character page:
- Abusive Parents: He is an asshole to his son Hawkfrost, but he does love Brambleclaw.
- Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas: A fan asked on Vicky Holmes' Facebook page "Does Tigerstar love his mommy?" The answer was "Oh yes."
- Even Evil Has Loved Ones: He had two mates and five kits. And he loved most of them.
- According to Word of God, he truly did respect and feel affection for Goldenflower and Sasha, which is huge for him.
- Perhaps showcased best when, in Tigerclaw's Fury, he runs over to the Thunder Clan camp when he hears it's on fire to make sure Goldenflower and their kits escaped.
- To drive it home, in Tigerclaw's Fury Tigerclaw was practically begging Fireheart to escape the fire, because he was the only one who was there to save Bramblekit.
- Pet the Dog: He gave Ravenpaw a genuine compliment in Into the Wild.
- Ran into the blazing Thunder Clan camp to save his son in Tigerclaw's Fury, and made sure his mate and daughter were alright before he left.
Now, once again, I know nothing about this series so I could be wrong, but these all sound way to mitigating.
Why so serious?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, maybe, but the second one could rely too much on Word of God.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Honestly, at this point I'm fine with just cutting Tigerstar.
I don't think I've ever seen a villain you've proposed that didn't count, Morgen. This is no exception.