Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

@25505: I would agree with Exdeath being a CM too. The closest example I can think of a being like him would be Armus, the oil slick from Star Trek: TNG, who was also created when a society decided to dispose of all their evil in one place. Armus has the kind-of sympathetic quality in that he can't help being awful and he's a sentient being who was abandoned by his creators, but Exdeath never shows any kind of self-awareness/self-pity for being Made of Evil. He just revels in it and goes out of his way to Kick the Dog by Voiding a bunch of places that have nothing to do with his plans, solely for the saking of hurting the heroes.

He's also able to get the loyalty of some demons who weren't created by people, so in my opinion he has more moral agency and sentience than your standard Made of Evil monstrosity. He could just hang around the Forest of Moore being a monster, but he goes above and beyond the call of duty and has a goal that was shared by an ancient, non-Made of Evil villain.

(And re: Tortall: will do a proper writeup of Imajane and Roger after work if we agree that they fits with CM still?)

edited 18th May '14 8:29:13 AM by eowynjedi

Can you please rewrite the Tortall keepers as a whole? I lend my support to them now. i say yea to Book!Jack too

As for Exdeath, going back over previous conversations, I'm not sure he was ever discussed in depth. Footsteps gave a tepid 'cut' back when and nobody really seemed to discuss him, except trigger Loaded who didn't focus on his attempts.

That said...I can see him counting. Omnicidal Maniac on par with Kefka, lots of torture, using his victims' corpses as building material. Moral Agency was never the issue, just heinousness, and it seems he passes

edited 18th May '14 10:09:17 AM by Lightysnake

@Morgenthaler For Jack the Ripper, here's the issue regarding Elizabeth. He tells Frankenstein he keeps Elizabeth "warm and fed" and he'll return her to safety if he gives him an indestructible body. Frankenstein is skeptical whether he'll actually do this.

We don't find out because ultimately Frankenstein outsmarts him. Instead of creating a body for him, he creates a creature made from the parts of the women Jack killed. The female creature attacks Jack and Frankenstein uses this opportunity to force him to reveal Elizabeth's whereabouts. So we don't know if he would have kept his promise. Although when he's fleeing the female creature, he wants to "find Frankenstein and take care of his bitch of a wife".

Also, what were referring to when you said Pragmatic Villainy?

I can't help but think 'take care' is a euphemism for something very sinister in that context

Exactly. So even though we don't find out if he would have returned her, he later plans to "take care" of her.

Oh, and good CHERUB rewrites!

Since Senguji seems to qualify, here's a writeup:

• Toyohisa Senguji is another of Makishima's associates. An old man who has converted most of his body to cybernetics to achieve immortality, Senguji has found himself experiencing incredible boredom. To alleviate it, he's turned to being a unique type of Serial Killer: the kind that hunts human beings. Senguji enjoys releasing his prey into the large sewers underneath the city and hunting them down while dressed as a Victorian hunter, along with his cybernetic robotic dogs which he uses to savage his prey before he executes them. Senguji's only passion is hunting people like this, and he has wracked up dozens of victims. When done, he harvests the bodies to make tools out of their bones. With his immense wealth keeping him out of reach of the law, Senguji cares only about exciting himself by playing his twisted game.

• Okay, family and I just got back from a fun weekend in NYC; I've missed stuff here. So Walking Dead dude tries to kill his own son? Never mind the loving him part; seems like he just thinks of him as property. Enough to change my vote to a .
  • (His character page may need to be edited though).
• Lighty, any thoughts on Malekith?

Oh right, any more thoughts on Joe?

edited 18th May '14 5:59:56 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Aaaaannnd I'm finally back, after months of bad luck trying to get my computer repaired (no really - frauds and incompetents everywhere, to the point I barely trust anyone who claims to be good with computers - managed to borrow a laptop for a while). And PS 3 is not a very good net navigation substitute.

Anyway, I'll vote on Pompeii's senator Corvus - he's one of those cartoonishly overdone, Bad Writing-created CMs, but he's one nonetheless. Asshole through and through, no redeeming qualities, plenty of onscreen heinousness.

I'll admit that New!Freddy is a bit of a tough nut to crack, but that ambiguity makes me say nay for the time being, though I could change my mind if a good enough argument was made (and as for good ol' Nyarly, well, in some ways being the "soul" of the entities embodying the fundamentals of life, the universe and everything -which should, normally, be conceptually unaligned and unaffected by morals or ethics, meaning ixnay on the Made of Evil-ay- and possessing the corresponding willpower and intellect, I'd say he likely has far more moral agency than a human can fathom, but still uses it to dick with everyone and everything, going so far as to relish weird amounts of attention on an Insignificant Little Blue Planet and its barely-evolved primate inhabitants pretty much just for shits'n giggles).

@25502 and 25511: Good writeups once again by Randomtroper. All look like keepers.

No on Gestahl, due to definitely not measuring up to Kefka's black hole of evil. Exdeath does seem like a good candidate though; he at least warrants further discussion.

Book!Jack The Ripper: Eh, he very well could be, but not quite clear due to issues mentionned; a bit of clarification/additional details would help.

That Walking Dead guy looks like quite the keeper as well.

And I know squat about Psychopass, but that Senguji kid seems to fit the bill.

edited 18th May '14 8:09:54 PM by Paireon

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.

PAIREON! Hells to the yes!

Got my message on Chaosic Rune, btw? And btw, watch Psycho Pass, you'll thank me.

edited 18th May '14 6:12:11 PM by Lightysnake

@25514:

• Duke Roger, Alanna's Arch-Nemesis from the first quartet. Originally heir of his cousin King Roald, the birth of Prince Jon bumped him out of line and he stops at nothing to get his place back. He creates a Mystical Plague that kills many in the city of Corus before it reaches its intended target, the royal family. When Alanna cures Jon, Roger goads Jon into getting himself killed by exploring a cursed city. Alanna foils this too, so Roger sends multiple Animal Assassins after her, tries to drown her, turns her friend Alex against her so that he tries to kill her while sparring, and helps create a war with Tusaine so he can pull a Uriah Gambit on both of them. Then he gives the Queen a wasting illness. When Alanna uncovers this she kills him in a duel, but that doesn't end it. He returns as an Omnicidal Maniac who gives up regaining the throne in favor of destroying Tortall entirely with an earthquake—not that he tells his own followers this, who still think they're participating in a standard usurper plot and don't realize he cares nothing for them either.
• Vinson of Genlith was already a bully in Joren's gang, but we learn in Page that he's also a sexual predator, attempting to rape Lalasa. In Squire, the Chamber of the Ordeal forces him to confess to raping two commoner women and beating a third by inflicting on him the injuries he inflicted on them—the text describes numerous ugly cuts and bruises occuring on his body, so we know just what he did to them. Even then, he doesn't have any actual remorse and tries to blame them for somehow inciting him to attack.
• Imajane Rittevon is an example of The Caligula being a genetic trait. Anyone she deems rebellious, even former friends or longtime aides, is subject to being nailed to a post on the docks as an Example. Hundreds of raka in the countryside are killed by stretching an already awful law beyond its limit, and city raka who gather even under innocent circumstances are violently dispersed. When Duke Nomru politely suggests being mildly less horrible, she throws him in prison. Finally, she and Rubinyan have Dunevon and Elsren assassinated to make themselves the sole monarchs and do so in a cruel, sloppy way that endangers others. Though her husband Rubinyan shares in most of these (including the last one) and have the nerve to pretend sympathy over it, he at least tries to restrain her more impolitic cruelties and might have had some genuine friendship for the Balitangs in the past.
• Pearl Skinner, the Big Bad of Bloodhound. She uses her surname as her signature method of dealing with her enemies (starting with her own family). She's thoroughly selfish, ruling by brute force and refusing to fulfill the Rogue's unspoken duty to stockpile affordable grain for the winter, threatening violence against anyone who questions her and demanding high tribute from any petitioners. She rules Port Caynn's poor with an iron fist with no inerference from their Provost, having terrified him into impotence by threatning his family. She soaks the market in counterfeit money for no more reason than that she wants to call herself the richest person in the land and uses this to retaliate against people by framing them (the lightest punishment for passing coles is a severed hand). When the Dogs start gathering evidence against her, she responds by having her accomplices, including a pregnant woman and a childhood friend, brutally murdered. When she actually displays a liking for Beka's dog Achoo, Beka's plain weirded out because Pearl is so reprehensible in every other respect.

While I'm at it, I'm going to propose Crookshank from Terrier too:

Who is he?

Ammon "Crookshank" Lofts, a fencer of stolen goods and slumlord.

What does he do?

Aside from being a slumlord who has no sympathy for any of his impovrished tenants (at least one was Driven to Suicide and I'm pretty sure he's sold debtors into slavery at least once), he secretly mines fire opals under the city by using his abandoned houses by quietly hiring poor people in batches of 6 - 10 and having them murdered when the mine is spent, rinse repeat. He repeats this several times. When Beka tries to talk him into paying the ransom for her friend's sake, he threatens to have her raped and murdered.

Freudian Excuse / Redeeming Traits: His grandson is eventually kidnapped by the book's other serial killer who demands fire opals in exchange for his safe return. Even when it's made crystal-clear that his son will die if he doesn't pay, he values his secret fire opals and pride above it. So he has a family, but given this + his daughter-in-law talks about enduring him, it's implied he's not fun to live with.

Heinous by the standards of the story? Yes. He preys on poor people specifically and has murdered about thirty people by the end of the book. His case is one of the books two major crime plots and the one that the police spend the most effort on and when his crimes become public, it starts a riot.

edited 18th May '14 7:25:25 PM by eowynjedi

@Lighty: Got it and responded.

@25522 Outch, that many scum for one series? In any case I'd say they're all keepers, including that Crookshank fellow.

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.

Thanks, Pai. I'm in for keeping the above, too.

Crookshank sounds like a keeper

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.

Besides my comments here, the writeups probably need some revising, but I'll take care of that when Lighty or whoever requests them (though Perseus Friend needs a Morally Ambiguous Doctorate Pot Hole and/or the type of doctor he is).

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

I think Perseus Friend is a biologist. Since we only see him act as a scientist in Silverfin, and not in By Royal Command, the book where he shows his monster credentials, I think we can do away with the word "doctor".

edited 19th May '14 4:25:08 AM by randomtroper89

Maybe Dr. Perseus Friend?

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Alright, I'll add them to the request thread now.

Definite to Emperor Gestahl. He was an underdeveloped character who looks tame next to Kefka.

to Exdeath, though. Much like Cell and Super Buu from DBZ, the circumstances of his birth might be close to Made of Evil but what he does afterwards is shown to be entirely his choice. Plus, his lair is a Body Horror made from living creatures, mostly people. That is one of the sickest things I heard out of any Final Fantasy game.

President Shinra was also mentioned in that post. He's an "on the fence" one for me, since aside from Hojo and Fuhito (and JENOVA if we knew more about her/him/it and it's moral agency) he's the only other villain from that game I'd consider being worthy of the title. The main thing is due to how Not So Similar he is to Barrett and AVALANCHE. The latter's actions in bombing reactors is confirmed to have cost many innocent lives, but Barrett was never thinking of those consequences because he was fixated on his goals and never did until Cait Sith told it to him straight up. Shinra, on the other hand, knew full well how many lives he would be taking when he was planning his attack, was told as much by Reeve, but he just didn't care as long as he could shift the blame to AVALANCHE and further his agenda with the citizens on his side. Also, he's the one who enabled Hojo to experiment on Aerith (and lord knows who or what else) to start with. And he'd be perfectly willing to wipe out his own city for the Neo Midgar project, and kill much more of the planet on the side, for the sake of money and power.

edited 19th May '14 8:01:28 AM by ANewMan

@25523 Yup :P I like Pierce quite a bit, but she doesn't usually go in for grey areas with her villains.

• Crookshank, one of the two serial killers from Terrier. He's already a slumlord who forced at least one debtor to sell his wife into slavery, driving her to suicide. He's rich, but when he discovers fire opals under the city he lures in jobless poor folk to mine them in secret, then kills them all and starts over when each mine is spent. He does this several times over the course of the book, killing seven to ten people each time. His great-grandson Rolond is killed by the Shadow Snake when Crookshank refuses to pay a ransom of opals. When the Snake takes his grandson Herrun, Crookshank continues to refuse out of pride and greed—when Beka tries talking some sense into him, he threatens to have her raped and murdered. Little wonder that his crimes spark a riot and he's burned to death in his house.

Also did a writeup for Exdeath while I'm at it:

• Exdeath started existence as a tree used to seal away evil spirits, but he goes above and beyond the call of villainy by trying to gain the reality-destroying power of the Void. He caused a huge amount of damage to Galuf's home thirty years ago before being sealed away. He kills and possesses numerous individuals to shatter the seal and promises vengeance on Galuf's home. Then he kills Galuf in battle. The party has to traverse his castle, which is made out of the pulsating bodies of his innumerable victims. When he does gain the Void he destroys Tycoon and the Ancient Library, which at least contain his enemies, but he forces the party to watch and then attacks several places which have nothing to do with him, including the Moogle Forest and Bartz's hometown, simply to be cruel. He also gathers an army of ancient demons and promises to create a world full of monsters for them. He shows both an intelligent and autonomous capacity for deliberate evil and absolute glee in perpetuating it, taunting the party all the way.

edited 19th May '14 9:27:05 AM by eowynjedi

Do not use 'Made of Evil' in these entries, it's an automatic disqualifier. People in FF have had similar origins and still have agency, so we can say Exdeath has made his own choices, but that needs to go.

I agree with Lighty's sentiments on this.

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.

^^ Gotcha, nixed the phrase.

No problems. Just to let you know: a major requirement is the capacity to form moral decisions. It's why, say, the Ebon Dragon of Exalted was disqualified, because it's a being born of pure darkness created to be evil, and has to strive to hurt everything, even itself, because it can't deny its nature.

By contrast, other beings are born from darkness or evil, and can still have moral decisions because beings similar to them are seen making moral choices (Mephisto in Marvel comics, Hakumen no Mono of Ushio And Tora and others)

Or Darkseid and Dormammu?

edited 19th May '14 9:56:39 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Yes.

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.