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Yeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhh....gonna stay out of the Marshall vote.....

Luke Dixon.

@Awesomekid 42: Personally, Saw devolved into Torture Porn. It didn't start as that, but around the fourth or fifth movie, you can tell the creators stopped giving a shit and just made the films as gross and gory as possible. Admittedly, it's good torture porn, and nothing like That One Film Named After That One Country, but it's still torture porn. To me, anyway. I seriously doubt the eighth film will have a candidate anyway, in large part because the two main villains in the series come off as complete hypocrites already and have an absurdly high body count. But hey. Suppose it could happen.

I apologize for the delay in proposing the Mafia III examples. For those who don't know, Mafia III is set in the Sixties, in the fictional Southern city of New Bourdeaux, and focuses on Lincoln Clay, the adopted son of the leader of the Black Mob. After returning from fighting in Vietnam, Lincoln participates in the robbery of the Federal Reserve, which is a joint operation by the Black Mob and the Marcano Crime Family. Once the heist is completed, Sal Marcano betrays and murders his allies, taking all the money for himself. The Black Mob is wiped out except for Lincoln, who survives being shot in the head and left for dead. From then on, the game focuses on Lincoln getting revenge for his adopted family's death and establishing his own criminal empire. Without further delay, here's the first candidate from the game: Ritchie Doucet.

Who is Ritchie Doucet and what has he done?

Ritchie Doucet is the head of the Dixie Mob, a neo-Confederate criminal group that’s in league with the Marcano Crime Family. He's also the Starter Villain of the game. Following the success of the Federal Reserve robbery, Doucet participates in the betrayal of the Black Mob, personally stabbing Ellis, Lincoln's younger brother, to death. As a reward for his help, Doucet and the Dixie Mafia take over the Black Mob’s old territory, Delray's Hollow.

The Dixie Mob's two predominant money-making rackets are prostitution and heroin. Ritchie runs his prostitution racket by abducting black women, addicting them to heroin, then forcing them into sexual slavery to service white patrons. As an added dick move, Ritchie turned Pearla's Theatre, named after the deceased wife of the Black Mob's leader, into his brothel. He also uses black women as slave labor for his drug manufacturing. The player gets to see both of his operations in-depth with Lincoln freeing girls held captive in his brothel, overhear them pleading to be let go, and finding notes where the girls describe what they endure.

Is he heinous by the standard of the story?

I'd say yes. In the two previous games, no one ever really did anything outstandingly heinous, just generic mobster crimes. Doucet's different in that he leads a sexual slavery ring. Sal Marcano, the Big Bad of Mafia III, profits from a lot of heinous acts committed by his lieutenants and their underbosses, but it seems less like he’s personally dictating their rackets and more letting them do whatever it takes to turn a profit. In fact, Sal's ultimate "evil plan" is to build a casino and get gambling legalized so he can go legitimate and secure a good future for himself and his son.

The only other villains whose actions Doucet is comparable to, are "Uncle" Lou Marcano and Remy Duvall (who I’ll propose tomorrow). "Uncle" Lou runs a high-end prostitution racket, a facet of which is allowing VIPs to do enact whatever sick fantasies they have with the girls, even if it involves abuse, literal torture, murder, or clown sex (yes, that’s not a joke, and if the mere thought of it doesn’t horrify you to your very core, clearly nothing will). However, while that’s a part of Lou's operation, Doucet's whole racket depends on forcing unwilling women to be drugged up sex slaves, so it seems he dwarfs Lou in that respect, even though Lou is higher than him in the organization and has more resources.

As for the protagonist's actions, while this is another game where the lead is building his own criminal empire, it’s not like GTA or Saint’s Row, where they screw with the heinous standard because the heroes can commit far worse acts than the villains. In fact, Lincoln's portrayed more as a "noble criminal" who avoids hurting innocent people and has a lot of Pet the Dog moments. Hell, you can even choose between lethal and non-lethal takedowns. The only time it falters in this portrayal is with the mission to assassinate "Uncle" Lou. Lincoln arranges an opportunity to get at his target by causing a boat Lou's holding a fundraiser on to sink, not caring about the dozens of innocent socialites he endangers in the process. Because of Lincoln, dozens of people drown, burn alive, or are eaten alive by gators. It’s actually kind of jarring because the game doesn’t seem to treat this as a bad thing Lincoln does, but treats Lou trying to save his own ass by stopping the party guests from leaving (despite knowing full well they’ll die), so they can slow Lincoln down, as a Kick the Dog moment on his part. It’s a misstep but it’s the only one I noticed in the game, and otherwise doesn’t succumb to Protagonist-Centered Morality.

So yes, I’d say Doucet is heinous by the standards of the story since he heads a very disgusting and uncommon (for the franchise) criminal enterprise.

Does he have any Freudian Excuse or redeeming qualities?

While no Freudian Excuse or redeeming qualities are shown in the game, this is mostly because he doesn’t have much screen time. In fact, the only thing I can think of that might make it difficult for him to qualify is that he’s not really a fleshed out character. Usually the villains in the game get a cutscene or two to establish their personality, but Doucet doesn’t. He only gets focus during his death scene, otherwise he’s just throwing out threats and insults to Lincoln as he makes his way through Doucet’s men. The only time he has substantial screen time is during his death scene where he reveals himself as a Dirty Coward. He begs for mercy, lies that he wasn’t involved in the Black Mob’s death, then when Lincoln tells him he personally saw him, Doucet tries to feebly defend himself by saying he was just following orders. He ends up tied up to the Ferris Wheel with a rope around his neck and his Last Request is for enough time to make a final prayer. Lincoln’s reply? "You can pray on the way up." So yeah, Doucet isn’t a really developed character, but I don’t know if he has to be to qualify. He just has the bare bones of a personality: racist, arrogant and cowardly.

Conclusion?

Really the only thing that has me doubting his inclusion is his lack of screen time, but other than that, I'd lean yes. He’s a small fry in the actual game, the Starter Villain as Lincoln begins his Roaring Rampage of Revenge, but his operations cover a special kind of evil that no others in the series has committed, and we get to see his operation's gruesome crimes firsthand.

I don't think I can vote yes to Marshall, on the basis of this film being blatant Anti-American, anti-semitic propoganda.

Anyways, once more, will anyone cast a vote here?

Alrighty, catch up...

Yes to big Lucifer from Lady Death...film sucks, but he counts.

RE Edward Chambers: This is a hard one for me, since so much is offscreen but so relevant to the plot. I'm going to give a tentative yea, but I want to see how bad the others are.

Now, Emperors...I think when you're considering proposing a character who's blatantly anti-semitic propaganda, that should give pause. Even then, Marshal seems to be so crazy, and have some weirdly twisted good intentions that setting aside the terrible propaganda I can't really vote yea to him.

@ Dr. Psyche: Oh dear me, Aguirre is a great film! Aguirre, I agree, cannot count, though.

I'll say yes to Luke Dixon, but I'm gonna start getting skeptical of Law and Order monsters now, all things considered.

@ OE: Yes to Doucet. Unreservedly. What a fucking bastard.

I'll Ritchie Doucet. Having the Anti-Hero commit one notable evil act that endangers the lives of innocents doesn't make him just as bad as the villains.

Doucet.

Huh. I figured that sexual slavery would have been a fairly common thing with a game about Mafia gangs. I'll give a I guess

edited 24th Oct '16 9:43:18 PM by Awesomekid42

So, here's an entry I wasn't too sure on: Pinkie Brown from Brighton Rock's most recent entry.

Who Is He? What's He Done?

Pinkie is a teenage sociopath and British gang member. Murdering a gangster who killed his mentor and boss, Pinkie realizes there's a witness, in a young woman named Rose has seen just enough to piece it back to him. Pinkie debates between killing Rose, but unwilling to draw more attention his way, he opts to romance Rose, sweeping her off her feet, and proposing marriage to her. In a stroke of brilliance, this means Rose cannot be compelled to give testimony against him should he be questioned or go to trial.

Pinkie later murders others as 'loose ends' outside of the gang. A journalist named Ida seemingly recognizes Pinkie for the sociopath he is and recognizes Rose is in mortal danger, as Pinkie is a ticking time bomb. Realizing the walls are closing in, and no longer trusting Rose to keep her mouth shut, Pinkie devises a scheme of swaying her into a mutual suicide pact so they can be 'together forever,' convincing her he's in trouble and being framed...Pinkie plans to have her shoot herself, then not fulfill his end of the bargain, and dash off. Ida, and another member of the gang named Dallow whose morality is piqued by Pinkie's cruelty interfere. Pinkie promptly attempts to murder all of them, before struggling with Dallow and uses bottle of acid he'd been keeping through the film to try to burn Dallow's face off. In the struggle, the acid is instead splashed into Pinkie's face, causing him to run, hysterical with pain, over the cliff they're on, falling to his death.

Unfortunately, at the end, Rose remains in a home for unwed and destitute mothers, with a record her only memento of Pinkie. Earlier she'd asked him to make a recording for her on it. When alone, Pinkie spitefully says, and I quote exact: "You wanted a recording of my voice, well here it is. What you want me to say is, 'I love you'. Well I don't. I hate you, you little slut."

...however, the record is scratched and, damaged, only repeats "I love you" over and over, leaving Rose with the delusion Pinkie loved her.

Heinous Standard?

Nobody else in the film or novel comes close to ol' Pinkie here. Given that Dallow is a crooked mobster and realizes "oh my god, I can't let this happen," Pinkie is terrible by gangster standards...the issue is the baseline standard as Pinkie has a relatively limited bodycount. His real twisted actions, though, towards Rose are what just...repel me, though. It's an extra step of ridiculous cruelty and he attempts to murder her, Dallow and Ida with no remorse by the film's end.

Redeeming Qualities?

None that really hold up. Pinkie is an explicit sociopath who cannot care about others or form attachments. He's virulently misogynist and has deep issues regarding sex (in the novel, he used to be subjected to watching his parents have sex, which leave him with...hangups). He's just an awful individual and if you think he cares a damn for Rose, I refer you to the quote from earlier.

Conclusion?

Pinkie is a tough one for me. I'm leaning yes. What say we here?

Abstaining on Pinky since he murdered somebody for killing his mentor makes me think that might be a redeeming quality on his end.

edited 24th Oct '16 10:27:39 PM by Awesomekid42

It's not. He didn't care at all about the guy.

I mean, it's made very abundantly clear Pinkie is incapable of caring about human beings as people He killed the guy because it helped his cred in the gang and because he was removing a 'problem.'

Ok. Wasn't comfortable on voting him without knowing if the reason he murdered the guy who killed his mentor was to avenge him or not.

To Pinky then.

edited 24th Oct '16 10:31:39 PM by Awesomekid42

Playing serious catch-up....

'Yes' to Chang and Mona (Those films sound highly entertaining, BTW), Ernst, Lucifer, and Zeus.

Abstaining on Marshall due to....questionable content.

Also 'Yes' to Dixon, Richie Douc(h)et (Get it? Douchet? No? Alright then), and Pinkie. He may not have the highest bodycount we've seen, but his...dealings with Rose push him over the edge for me.

• Dixon, if only for the "unique" nature of his rapes.
• Doucet. I'm half-tempted to say "Uncle" Lou, since while it's only part of his organization, there's the whole, you know, torture and murder thing (and the clown sex thing ),
• VERY slight Pinkie. That last bit with the tape pushes him JUST beyond Kick the Dog into CM territory IMO.

for Pinky, Dixon, and Doucet

Occasional Exister: You know Lou might qualify as well try do him tomorrow or when you have time

Dixon, Doucet and Pinkie

to Luke Dixon, Ritchie Doucet and I guess Pinkie.

Are there any more votes for Chambers? So far I've got one , one tentative and one .

Now, still on Law & Order, I'd like to remove Bill Harris.

• William "Bill" Harris from season 12's "Behave" is responsible for nearly a dozen rapes. He developed a special interest in one of his victims, Vicki Sayers, and repeatedly tracked her down whenever she was on the verge of putting her life together.

In short, he raped twelve victims. But it falls short when compared to the others rapists on the page.

• Darryl Kern from season 2’s "Manhunt" is a serial rapist and serial killer who made a habit out of abducting, raping, torturing and killing women. He was a former soldier who was discharged because he believed soldiers liked killing. His journal states that he is planning to survive an upcoming radical war, and create a new generation from sex slaves, but later admits during questioning that he's simply having fun at the expense of the police. When his hideout is found, at least fifteen bodies are found buried in his yard alone. He also has his assistant, a mentally fragile man named Posey, help him kidnap a woman and her young daughter. Kern then kills Posey , and plans to kill his hostages but is arrested by Canadian police.

• Matthew Linwood Brodus, from season 3's "Execution", was a criminal on Death Row. Prior to being captured he was a Serial Killer and Serial Rapist who kidnapped women from different places and took them to his hideout. From there he would not only rape, but also torture them for several hours. The victims would succumb to this and die, at which point he would continue to rape their corpses. He has done this to at least 12 women, with the bodies mutilated and disfigured beyond identification. Before his execution could be performed, another victim appeared where he blinded her as well as performing his usual MO. When Detective Stabler sought to get a confession out him so that the victim's family could get closure, Brodus not only confessed to the deed, while showing absolutely no remorse about it, but as a way to spite him and the family he attacks the detective where prison guards to come then came and brutally beat him down severely injuring him, thus temporarily avoiding his execution.

• Charlie Baker from season 4's "Dominance" has murdered eleven people in about a week, after forcing them to have sex with each other first or raping the victims himself. Then he kidnapped two women, killed their boyfriends, and kept them captive on a roof. He's also been raping his little brother and beating his alcoholic father all along.

• Eugene Hoff, alias Abraham Ophion, from season 6’s "Charisma," is the pedophilic leader of a Corrupt Church of his 100 followers, which included his pre-teen victims and their families. Hoff separates the married couples, because he said that they couldn't be soldiers of God if they were slaves to the flesh, and uses all the women and girls of his cult for sexual favors, fathering 1 living and 6 dead children with them. His earliest victim was a 4-year-old Jamie Buchman, who her father caught in the same room with a near-naked Hoff, causing his family to leave the church. Growing paranoid, Hoff began to prepare his followers for war, filling their heads with the idea of the U.S. Government coming to kill them. He was also a greedy man, killing John Cramer and lying to his wife for John's million-dollar bank account and only keeping his latest victim Melanie alive so he can claim her two-million-dollar trust fund after their baby is born. Hoff is ultimately a depraved individual who believes himself to be greater than God.

• Victor Paul Gitano from season 7's "Fault" was a sadistic pedophile that lures kids in, then rapes, tortures, and kills them. He doesn't discriminate by gender either. On top of that, when trying to hunt Gitano down, things don't quite go as planned. Not only does he kill one of the two kids he had with him in a subway station full of people by slashing his throat, he almost killed Benson the same way. Then, when they corner Gitano in a warehouse, he manages to get behind Stabler and hold him at gunpoint with a shotgun. Gitano, despite knowing he'd get caught or killed at this point, outright boasts that he killed the other child he had (who was a girl) and bragged that she was a "slut" and a "real little whore" before killing her, even though he never got the chance to molest her.

• Adam Grafton, from season 12's "Pursuit", is a sadistic Serial Killer and Serial Rapist with over forty victims to his name over at least 25 years. Starting as a teenager, Adam would claim his victims—some of whom, including TV host Alicia Harding's younger sister Vanessa, were in their mid-teens at most—in clumps and paralyze them from the chest down by stabbing them in a certain area, rape them repeatedly, and viciously stab them to death to finish them off, but not before stabbing them in their lung, collapsing it and preventing the victim from screaming for help. In the present day, Adam's obsessed with mentally toying with Alicia about his role in her sister's death by stalking her and sending her bloody pieces of old evidence from the case. When Alicia insults him on live TV, Adam flies into a rage and brutally murders EADA Sonya Paxton, including before trying to hunt down and murder Alicia, which leads to his arrest. At the end of the episode, even on Death Row, he coldly and smugly, if not gleefully, tells Detective Benson about all the women he's killed without so much as a hint of remors.

• William Lewis from the season 14 finale and season 15 is a serial rapist and sadistic torturer. His MO is going from state to state, kidnapping, raping and torturing women for hours and even days on end under different aliases, regardless of age. When he was young he watched his babysitter get raped and killed in front of him; he describes it as the best day of his life. Eventually he kidnaps Detective Olivia Benson, forces her to watch as he kills the father and rapes the mother of his defense attorney. After killing a cop and taking Benson to a house to rape her, he takes a maid and young girl hostage. When Benson turns the tables on him, he deliberately tries to provoke her to kill him. During his trial, he makes Olivia relive the experience. After his escape, he kills another cop, rapes a nurse and kidnaps a young girl. When Benson confronts him, he takes her hostage again, but becomes turned off by his initial molestations, so he decides to force her into a game of Russian Roulette.

Even the recently discussed Luke Dixon outclass him in heinousness (the list of his crimes are on the previous page for those who didn't read it yet).

To me, Bill Harris shouldn't count.

EDIT: for doucet and pinkie.

edited 25th Oct '16 4:18:43 AM by MiraiYuji

Dixon, Doucet and Pinkie.

Now that season 4 of Web Animation/RWBY is out, should we remove Cinder since she's still alive and her story isn't over yet? Or does the two-week rule apply to removing characters too?

On the subject of monsters whose stories aren't over yet, I'd also suggest removing Dr. Hatch since there's one more book in the series to go,.

Doucet

If something redeeming about either villain pops up, we'll remove them. But they can stay for now; there's no point in removing someone because their arc isn't over, and then putting them back up when it turns out nothing new pops up to disqualify them. Hence why Ramsay Snow stayed up even before Season 5 and 6 finished airing.

edited 25th Oct '16 5:52:52 AM by Tyk5919

Chang

Mona

Zeus

Lucifer

Dixon

Richie Doucet

Pinkie Brown

• And for that matter why the book version is still up.
• I'm inclined to agree about Harris. Unless stalking that one victim is enough. I wonder about Charlie Baker too. The others have either sheer quantity, and/or Would Hurt a Child. Here's another likely candidate, if anyone wants to see the eps.
• I'm still iffy on Zeus's agency. If he counts though, I believe it'd be Michael Ironside's third CM.

I recently noticed that Beast the One from Ultraman is listed as a CM on Live-Action TV. While I think he counts, he is from the movie and not the series. Maybe we should move him.

edited 25th Oct '16 6:38:40 AM by emperors

Yes to Pixie, Doucet, and Dixon. The Marshall's territory I'm uncomfortable getting into.