During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Third.
Fourth, at least.
I think The Screaming Skull''s Big Bad might be one, but it's been so damn long since I saw that movie that I don't remember.
Sometime ago, I mentioned Hunter Cain from Generator Rex had a pretty weak description.
Hunter Cain kills E.V.O.s left and right even when Rex is trying to cure them. Then he uses his goon squad to piss Rex off in an attempt in discrediting him, and finally, he clones E.V.O.s to lure Rex out, was prepared to sacrifice his own men, and then tried to murder Rex when he was unarmed. In his next appearance, he tries to slaughter a whole lot of children.
I didn't follow up on because I forgot about it. Then I saw his description again and started rewriting it on Microsoft Word until I made one I think looks better and brings up all of his appearances.
Hunter Cain used to have a normal life with his wife until she became an E.V.O. and he was forced to euthanize her. The event caused him to snap and he became a vigilante obsessed with killing E.V.O.s with his private militia, not caring if any of them were human or not. Hating Providence for not doing a better job and Rex for being an E.V.O., Cain opposed them and started spreading propaganda about them being the cause of the E.V.O.s. To discredit them further, he cloned an E.V.O. and made sure only his men and their weapons could destroy them. When the clones became too much to handle, Cain abandoned them for a chance to kill Rex. After ending up in prison, he bribed and his way out, becoming a mercenary with the few men who didn’t renounce him. He gets hired to drive a family of werewolf-E.V.O.s out of a Mexican village, but actually planned to kill them all, not caring any of them are children who don’t want to hurt anyone. He took delight at a chance at revenge on Rex, saving one anti-Nanite bullet for him. He was even willing to kill their non-E.V.O. caretaker for defending them. In his final appearance, he works alongside other enemies of Rex to get revenge, not caring that one of them, Noface, is an E.V.O. Rex even calls him out on it. He turns on them in an attempt to kill Rex himself. Violent and hypocritical, Hunter Cain may act like a hero of the people but is really a sociopath who will use any excuse and break even his own code to hurt anyone he hates.
Does this look good?
edited 29th Nov '15 3:08:11 PM by DuelMark
"Sam Manson is a terrible character."![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
I still say Hunter Caine shouldn't count since he loves his wife.
Yeah, I think I'm inclined to agree. Snapping due to that is a bit of a valid FE too. Especially compared to guys like Van Kleiss and Dr. Moses
Yeah... that sounds like too much of a tragic excuse.
How did Hunter Cain get approved in the first place?
Yeah, if he truly is motivated by loving his wife, he can't count. The writeup itself is good, though.
Speaking of Generator REX... Moses' writeup may be plagiarized.
I would say his Freudian Excuse doesn't justify since he willingly endangers non-Evos, including an old woman. He even aimed a gun at her. Also, he kills Evos because his wife turned into one. That doesn't really make sense as an Excuse to kill them. If an Evo killed his wife I'd understand, but it just seems like he's insane and full of hate. If anything, he comes off as a hypocrite.
edited 29th Nov '15 4:28:31 PM by DuelMark
"Sam Manson is a terrible character."
Lizzid people!
So then he doesn't love his wife anymore?
I actually watched all of the episode he appeared in while writing, and not once does he mention his wife. It's brought up by other people.
"Sam Manson is a terrible character."
Okay, this whole "But he also does this, so it's not a real excuse" thing does need to end. misdirected anger, disproportionate retribution? That's not a bar to having loved your wife or reacting insanely from their death. On the other hand, a possessive stalker crush like Lezard Valeth or evidence they only care for them as possessions, or stopped loving them long ago (Jon Irenicus, Zouken Matou) is another story.
Makoto Shishio from Rurouni Kenshin outright shoves a sword through the back of the woman he loves to impale the hero, but it's then revealed he loves her deeply and she's happy to have been of use to him in the fight, while he holds her as she dies. Other villains are driven to psychotic extremes on misdirected anger. It's not a bar to disqualification.
As opposed to say, Dio Brando, who is driven by an explicitly selfish motivation and sheds all human feeling
edited 29th Nov '15 4:34:42 PM by Lightysnake
This.
That's why I didn't like that other thread discussion/emphasis on characters starting out good(ish) and losing all redeeming qualities.
There are a couple of examples of this, but it seems like an excuse to dismiss actual redeeming qualities.
RE: Tirek and Sombra: At least we know the show is capable of getting as dark as G1, but even if Sombra and Tirek succeeded, both were given tragic backstories in the canon comics series especially Sombra who was shown to be cursed and had his heart broken. So if any of the current villains return the most likely to fit this trope is Chrysalis and even she probably would fail the heinous standard set by G1 Tirek. I called Starlight being redeemed as soon as she was introduced.
Though you're right, a future villain could have caused that destruction and they might be heinous enough to warrant some consideration, but due to the nature of this show redeeming almost every character, I doubt it will ever happen. The probability is far too low. If there's another villain like Tirek from G1 who isn't given any redeeming qualities then we might consider it.
Also, Tirek and Sombra were made out to be generic doomsday villains at least in the finale. So even if they didn't have redeeming qualities they'd stI'll be shot down.
edited 29th Nov '15 5:31:05 PM by Klavice
Yeah, I doubt My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic will ever have a CM, but it's at least possible enough that I think Fan Works of the series can be kept.
King Sombra and Tirek would fail the heinous standard anyway. Due to the presence of an Omnicidal Maniac protagonist in Midnight Sparkle, who was apparently still redeemable.
I am still about 70% sure the series will never have a CM, but I would like to note that Klavice is miss rembering things and that the comics do NOT give Tirek a tragic backstory like they do Sombra. In addition, the season five finale pretty much casted doubt on the canonicity of the comics anyway, as in the comics, Sombra wanted to use the crystal ponies to unleash the Umbrum, while in the bad future with him in it in the season five finale, he instead wanted to use the crystal ponies as an army to conquer Equestria.
With that said, I'm I really hope we can stop discussing that show for now.
jjj
I've noticed that Chara was labeled as Complete Monster a couple of times without being brought to the thread. I've looked up some information on Chara, and even in the pacifist route, Asriel admits that Chara's done horrible things. I was thinking about doing an effort post on him, but I want to make sure that he's been discussed beforehand so I don't do the same thing I did with The Crooked Man.
edited 29th Nov '15 7:02:02 PM by Awesomekid42
By the way, had a question about Terra of the Left. I looked this character up on the relevant Wikia and found he had a post-mortem appearance. It seems a later villain, a Reality Warper, traps the hero in an illusory Lotus-Eater Machine world where, among other things, everyone who died on his adventures is alive and happy... and this includes Terra. Does this imply that he at least felt Terra was redeemable?
Probably not. Reminds me of an instance in Order of the Stick where the Order is trapped in a Lotus-Eater Machine that makes them experience an idealized happy ending and in it, two villains (one of whom is the father of one of the Order's members, Elan) are considerably more harmless/redeemable than in reality.
A total has-been.
Hunter Cain reminds me of Stryker from the X-Men films. Loathsome piece of work whose Freudian Excuse doesn't really hold weight when faced with his villainy, but if he had someone he loved enough that it destroyed him inside to have to euthanize, then he's not quite this trope. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for him.
if any of the current villains return the most likely to fit this trope is Chrysalis and even she probably would fail the heinous standard set by G1 Tirek.
Chrysalis cannot qualify because, as irredeemable and vile as she is, she does look out for her subjects and wants to keep them nourished. It's for selfish reasons, but it's still a pretty decent quality for her.
Though you're right, a future villain could have caused that destruction and they might be heinous enough to warrant some consideration, but due to the nature of this show redeeming almost every character, I doubt it will ever happen.
What's funny is that the destroyed Equestria Bad Future exactly matches what Princess Celestia described might happen if Tirek stole all magic from the ponies - no crops, no water, no life. If it had been made more explicit beyond Fridge Horror that this is what Tirek would bring about, maybe he'd have made the cut.
King Sombra and Tirek would fail the heinous standard anyway. Due to the presence of an Omnicidal Maniac protagonist in Midnight Sparkle, who was apparently still redeemable.
That's kind of taking things out of context since Twilight only went omnicidal because she was corrupted and made Brainwashed and Crazy through overloading on magic that she was pressured into using by the actual antagonists of the film.
CM or not, Tirek and Sombra top the heinous standard of the main show itself. Tirek in particular since we now see that he'd fully intended on just blasting the shit out of Equestria before laying claim to it.
I am still about 70% sure the series will never have a CM, but I would like to note that Klavice is miss rembering things and that the comics do NOT give Tirek a tragic backstory like they do Sombra.
They sort of did given young Tirek's life with royal pressure and parents who didn't get along well, but at the same time they didn't since they showed him as an utter sociopath who'd try to drain magic from ponies to send them to a state of near-death, leave someone to die, refuse to take responsibility for his actions, and plot to overthrow his father. His brother Scorpan not turning out as bad as he did (to the point where he embraced friendship with ponies years later whereas Tirek refused just that) makes him look even worse.
edited 29th Nov '15 9:14:07 PM by ANewMan
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hunter Cain: Didn't we go through something like this with Nicodemus?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts