Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
I hate spoilers
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Watcher X.
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Watcher X, good work as per usual!
Now for my own from One Piece real quick, short and sweet one:
Who is Daz Bonez/Mr. 1? What makes him a candidate?
- One of the most dangerous assassins in the world, Daz Bonez is a member of the criminal organization Baroque Works, serving as "Mr. 1" in the ranks, second only to Mr. 0, Crocodile himself. His Devil Fruit power is that of the Dice-Dice Fruit, which enables him to transform any part of his body into a blade. He uses this power throughout the manga in such clever ways as to avoid taking damage when thrown into a wall by hardening his back into blades and slashing through it on impact; regularly blocking bladed attacks; and even using a specialty ability to spin the blades like buzzsaws on his skin to catch opponents by surprise.
- In the Arabasta arc, Daz Bonez meets up with the other members of Baroque Works, listening to Crocodile's plan to destabilize the kingdom. Daz works with Miss Doublefinger to steal and crash a giant warship into the middle of the kingdom, causing chaos while Mr. 2/Bon Clay disguises himself as the king and takes credit for declaring war on civilians; this turns the population against the ruling body of Arabasta and leads to revolution, destabilizing the kingdom according to Crocodile's plans. When a young boy overhears Bon Clay accidentally spill the beans, Daz and Doublefinger beat the boy to such a point that he can't expose their plans before it's too late.
- Dispatched by Crocodile to kidnap Princess Vivi, Daz and the other members of Baroque Works prepare to capture her. When the Straw Hat Pirates distract the villains long enough for Vivi to escape, Daz winds up working with Doublefinger against Straw Hats Zoro and Nami. After Daz targets Nami to eliminate first as the weaker, he ultimately leaves her to Doublefinger so that Daz can duel Zoro alone.
- Daz gives Zoro a brutal fight, Zoro's swordsmanship repeatedly failing against Daz's Fruit powers. Only when Zoro has faced near-defeat does he manage to unlock the secret to cutting steel, which he uses to deal a heavy blow to Daz. Stunned at being pierced, Daz simply snarks to Zoro "cutting steel...what's next, diamonds?" before conceding defeat.
- Though rounded up by the Navy to be locked up with Crocodile, Daz quickly proves his usefulness as he works with Crocodile to assert dominance as the top dogs of the first prison they are confined to, and when offered an easy chance at escape, they decide to hide their time. Even when the two are thrown in the maximum security Impel Down, Daz keeps his threat as he casually murders a fellow prisoner for crossing him.
- When Luffy begins causing chaos and an uprising in the prison, Crocodile asks if Daz wants to join in. Daz agrees, and works with Crocodile to tear through Impel Down defenses, playing a key role in the group's ultimate escape. He helps Crocodile steal one of the Marine's own vessels to help spirit more prisoners out of Impel Down, and later during the Marineford arc, Daz risks his ass to protect Luffy as part of their temporary truce against the far more powerful Mihawk, which gets Daz viciously incapacitated but nonetheless still alive.
- For the rest of his appearances, Daz continues to serve as Crocodile's icy right-hand man, always seen working with him to whatever ends he's up to, from setting up new prospects to wiping out an entire Marine armada.
Is he magnificent?
Eyep, he's a stone cold badass capable of kicking ass who plays his part in Arabasta's destabilization beautifully, duels Zoro while pulling out new tricks, and has a key role in the Impel Down breakout—even risking his own life to save Luffy from Mihawk. He then continues to work with Crocodile as his Dragon and be a fierce lieutenant.
Is he a bastard?
Part of the attempted takeover Arabasta, tries to kill the Straw Hats, murders a fellow prisoner just for stepping up to him, etc.
Now, in some of the manga scanlations, he uses some...choice words when describing Mr. 2/Bon Clay in their early meetups, but it seems to just be a by-basis translation thing because in others (and the anime itself) he just uses typical "what did that idiot do?" type language rather than calling him an "okama freak", so I think he's fine on this front.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I hate spoilers
to Daz Bones. Didn't expect to see him here, but stranger candidates have been accepted.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Watcher X and Daz Bones
Watcher X. I knew he would be proposed.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Watcher X, Daz Bones
Also like with the CM thread, Jackie and me are handling Gen V.
EDIT: When I got up Prime!Megatron I remember Knock-Out being asked. Giving some of his appearances a rematch though I'd unfortunately be staunchly against. He's quite the Butt-Monkey and while he lacks Starscreams sadism, he still has whiny breakdowns over his paint job being ruined.
Although there is one possibile Transformers: Prime candidate I'm considering.
Edited by WetFlannels on Sep 6th 2023 at 6:17:40 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Sure to Daz Bones. He's not what I would call a schemer or manipulator, but he has enough tactical acumen that I think he just makes it.
Speaking of which, Crocodile could probably due with a small expansion. His write up doesn't yet mention teaming up with Mihawk to use Buggy as a figurehead while they lead the Cross Guild behind the scenes.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Goku Black
watcher x and Daz bones.
Not the Eye
to Donovan, Watcher X and Dan Bonez and Eris pic
Edited by EmperorGeode on Sep 7th 2023 at 3:30:27 AM
Lies and Violence!
Talia, Otsuka, Michelangelo, Donovan, the Eris pic, Watcher X, Mr. 1.
What's the work?
Ninjago is one of LEGO's longest running toylines, starring a team of Technicolor Ninjas with elemental powers as they fight evil. Me and mir have already pretty thoroughly looked through the show, but I decided to have a peek at some of the mini-series. Only have one from these, a non-canon version of one of the Arc Villains.
Tall Tales is the miniseries in question, a series of non-canon shorts detailing how the pirates of the legendary ship Misfortune's Keep joined the infamous crew. Their captain?
Who is Nadakhan?
A wish-granting Djinn pirate, Nadakhan uses his powers to attract followers to his cause. His first recruit? One of the fastest ship mechanics in the world. Nadakhan approaches him and offers to grant his wishes; the mechanic wishes to become the best ship builder in the world... and to get rid of a monkey that's been stealing his tools. Nadakhan responds by combining the mechanic with his toolbox and the monkey. The resulting creature, Monkey Wretch, is able to nimbly jump around ships to build and repair, quickly constructing the Misfortune's Keep and joining Nadakhan as he sets to the sea.
Next up? Dogshank, an athlete who's never quite strong or fast enough to win. She agrees to join his crew if he helps her win; Nadakhan uses this wish to transform her into a hulking brute that towers above everyone else, the best at whatever she does.
Along the way, a Motor Mouth thief named Doubloon tries to steal from their ship. Nadakhan, having expected this, catches him in the act, but—impressed by his skill—recruits him onto the crew... but not before making him mute, out of annoyance with his non-stop talking.
Finally, there's his first mate, Flintlocke. Already an experienced pirate captain, Flintlocke is approached by the Djinn after getting stranded at sea. He first wishes to be brought to dry land... leading to Nadakhan sending him to the driest place around, the desert. He then wishes to be brought to someplace cooler, getting dropped in the arctic, and finally wishes to just be on a welcoming ship. Nadakhan uses this last wish to bring him to the Keep, recruiting him to his band.
Is he magnificent?
Forms a competent crew by handing out wishes, while twisting them to serve his means—Dogshank, for instance, merely asks to win, but Nadakhan uses that wish to turn her into an unstoppable juggernaut that can demolish any of his opponents. Flintlocke, on the other hand, is manipulated into bringing himself on board, ensuring they have a competent right hand.
Is he a bastard?
Pirate captain who enjoys using his wishes to mess with people—Flintlocke getting sent to hazardous environments, silencing Doubloon for being annoying, etc.
Question. Can blank slate "you-decide-the-personality" player characters that can potentially be horrifically evil in certain routes qualify on the basis that there are routes where they aren't horrifically evil but display MB traits?
I have a character from a Hearts of Iron IV mod who is essentially a blank slate Player Character that grew up in one of the last remnants of a Fascist government and finds themselves in charge of said government in one of the paths.
And the character could be played as seeking to either turn said government into an actual democracy or double down on its genocidal and fascistic policies. With regards to the "good ending", they take some underhanded means to ensure that extremist elements in said government are contained or outright purged. And in both routes they have to fight a democratic nation that seeks to destroy said government for the crimes of its' past leaders.
My question is, can this character qualify on the basis of their "good" route or would their "evil" route undermine them as a MB no matter how wholesome the good route is? Note that this character is a literal blank slate with only the personality the player gives them, they do not have any "canon" personality, so their good and evil routes mostly are completely different characters.
My initial gut reaction was no because of what they can get up to in the "evil" route, but apparently there are versions of Odysseus from the Trojan War myths themselves we've upvoted on the basis that "not all versions of him condones rape" and there are a few of these Player Character sorts we have upvoted that could get into really evil shit that could disqualify them(albeit mostly due to canon routes that do wipe away the move evil choices), so I am not sure in this situation.
That said, said mod does have a possible MB aside from the protagionist character.
Edited by xie323 on Sep 7th 2023 at 7:34:56 AM
Goku Black
Nadakhan.
Lies and Violence!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
We generally consider all different routes that players in a video game could take; video games with different paths are a very different medium from stories with different editions and changed details.
Goku Black
And yes. Like with cm. You need to count on every path to count. Or at least not do something that would be a permanent redmark.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ok, so I'm not going to EP the protagonist as they do some really evil shit in their evil route through not to the extent as a CM from the same faction. The other candidate is still going to be effortposted through.
Goku Black
Oh and also Donovan.
Missed that.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ultimate Moral Compass
Nadakhan
Not the Eye
to Nadakhan
Ultimate Moral Compass
- Blazing Saddles: Jim is a wry and witty gunslinger who was once "The Waco Kid", the fastest gun in the world. Having killed many men who foolishly thought they could challenge him, after getting shot in the ass by a child he spared, Jim turned to alcohol and became depressed. Befriending Rock Ridge’s new sheriff Bart and demonizing the white citizens’ racist attitude, Jim shows he’s still got it as he assists Bart in preventing Hedley Lamarr and his men from destroying the town by luring them into numerous traps, coming out as one of Rock Ridge’s saviors.
- Female Prisoner 701: Scorpion: Otsuka is a prisoner who assists Nami in her prison escape after she saved her from grave punishment. With a keen intellect that matches Nami’s own, Otsuka prevents Katagiri from assassinating Nami, and during a riot that sees Katagiri lead the torture of Nami by the prisoners, Otsuka frames Katagiri for supposedly trying to burn everybody alive to ensure Nami’s livelihood. Creating a massive distraction for Nami’s escape, Otsuka allows her to leave while she stays behind, ensuring her legacy as Nami’s most helpful ally.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
To the write ups
Also to Nadakhan
Edited by LarryT on Sep 7th 2023 at 2:23:52 AM
In honor of Akira Toriyama
to Watcher X, Daz Bonez and Nadakhan
Watcher X, Mr. 1, Nadakhan.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Watcher X, Daz Bonez and Nadakhan.
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Yes to Watcher. And unfortunately I’m out of this thread and TVT in general until further notice so peace hall.
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
After that One Piece diversion, time to get back to the Imperial Agent story line for the Star Wars MMO. My 3rd candidate will be a character introduced in Act 1 but comes back to play an absolutely vital role in Act 2.
The Agent is sent to the Hutt city moon of Nar Shaddaa to take out the local terrorist cell operating under the Eagle. They are sent to the prison quarter called Shadow Town, hosting a myriad of dangerous people the Empire still finds useful enough to not kill outright, and rendezvous with a former Sith Intelligence agent imprisoned there to help dismantle the cell. This supposedly insane agent proves far more important that the Agent would realize at that time, and also happens to be one of the biggest edgelords in Star Wars both in name and personality.
Who is Watcher X?
Watcher X was part of an Imperial experiment that led to him be genetically modified in the womb to be the ultimate asset for Imperial Intelligence, both brilliant and physically peak. Although X performed masterfully in his missions, he began to indulge in wild conspiracy theories and see connections where they had no meaning and thus was jailed in Shadow Town for his growing insanity. Of course, later revelations in the story heavily suggest he was actually catching on to the influence the Star Cabal had on Imperial assets and was removed before he could expose their network. Regardless, X becomes mission control for the Agent on Nar Shaddaa and tells them he uncovered the Eagle's network was creating a dangerous and addictive stimulant called Cyclone and was peddling on the streets for funding.
X gives the Agent a serum to make them appear to be a Cyclone addict and sends them off to find a dealer so he could trace the drug's manufacturer. The Agent finds a blood sample of a dead addict with enough Cyclone to trace the origins, which X uses to trace the drug's creation to a bankrupt corporation. He then sends the Agent to track down the former CEO and has the Agent poison his drink and offer an antidote as payment for information. This information reveals the company's medical wing was sold to unknown buyers whom X deduces has to be the terror cell. In order to infiltrate the terror cell, X installs a series of implants in the Agent to holographically disguise themselves and sends them to successfully assassinate the cell's leaders. X then has the Agent plug him into the cell's systems to disrupt their communications to dissolve the terror cell permanently, and X just so happens to forget to tell the Agent doing so would also disrupt the security around Shadow Town.
Seeing the Agent as a kindred spirit, X allows them to have a final confrontation with him at the Nar Shaddaa spaceport. He offers secret intel on both Imperial Intelligence and the Agent's right hand Kaliyo Djannis. The Dark Side option is to accept and let him escape, but the Light Side option is to prevent his escape and kill him in the ensuing struggle. Alas, every good spy has contingencies. Even if apparently killed, Watcher X will manifest in the Agent's mind when they are under mind control in Act 2. The implants he put in them back on Nar Shaddaa allows him to mentally communicate and aid the Agent during their ordeal. As a voice in their head, X will reveal to them the brainwashing is an Imperial program meaning someone within Imperial Intelligence betrayed them. Using the vast array of intel he acquired during his days in Intelligence, X guides the Agent to the archives in Intelligence Headquarters which confirms the truth to the Agent and how to acquire chemicals to halt the process. The Agent is soon able to create a serum to counter the effects, but it will take time. During the climactic showdown with Act 2's villain, Watcher X will give the Agent the final mental push to break the brainwashing and cryptically tells them there are even deeper truths to uncover in the trials ahead.
Is he magnificent?
Watcher X is unfailingly polite and a coldly emotionless sociopath that always stays ahead of those arrayed against him and has plenty of backup plans to ensure he always stays on top. Even outside of playing the Agent like a fiddle during the Nar Shaddaa story, his paranoid rambling prove entirely true and his preparations are vital in saving the Agent from their brainwashing in Act. He's got both the intelligence and personality to match this tropes.
Is he a bastard?
While an ambiguous ally to the Agent, X can still be ruthless when it ensures the success of the mission. He suggests the Agent poison a target to blackmail them for information and advises them to murder a bunch of innocent workers to cover their tracks.
Final Verdict?
Another easy![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]")
.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.