Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Yes to Tavus
Also reserving Hell's Paradise here.
Yes to Tavus.
Here are my comic book villain write-ups:
- Fantastic Four: The Baxter Effect by Dave Stern: The Mad Thinker is one of the Fantastic Four's most persistent foes. The Thinker is unhappy with how his life turned out and has an ambitious plan to change it. The Thinker and his androids infiltrate a demonstration at the Baxter Building of Reed Richards' newest invention, the Q-Ray. The Thinker and his androids manage to overpower the Fantastic Four, with the Thinker enacting several countermeasures and backup plans to defeat them. The Thinker changes the Q-Ray and uses it to rewrite reality itself, changing it so he is a hero and a member of the Fantastic Four. When Ben Grimm begins to suspect the truth. the Thinker uses his android doubles to fool Grimm and Reed Richards and uses the Q-Ray to change reality again.
- Batman/Daredevil: Crossover: In this universe, Two-Face is a supervillain and former lawyer who attended law school with Matt Murdock. Two-Face steals the formula for an organic computer from Wayne Tech and goes to NYC and teams up with Mr. Hyde. Hyde and Two-Face go on a crime spree and kill some civilians. Two-Face is giving Hyde pills to increase his intelligence. Those pills are in fact the formula for the organic computer and the more pills Hyde takes and the more adrenaline he uses, the faster the computer will grow in his brain until it kills him. Two-Face will go on to sell the computer to the highest bidder. Two-Face almost succeeds, only stopping after Daredevil appeals to his humanity and stops Hyde from killing a teenager.
Edited by Overlord on Jul 27th 2023 at 6:36:12 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Tavus
- Bayonetta: Rodin, the Infinite One, is the smooth-talking, demonic owner of the Gates of Hell bar, and a skilled gunsmith who supplies Bayonetta with all the weapons she needs on her journeys. Once a feared ruler of Paradiso, Rodin was banished to Inferno after participating in a failed insurgency, forced to craft weapons for the angels in their war against the demons. After growing tired of war and bloodshed, Rodin escaped Inferno to hide out in the human realm, remaining hidden for centuries. Slaying the most powerful of demons to acquire their souls for his weapons, Rodin values Bayonetta as a customer first and foremost, choosing to act as an observer who only gets his hands dirty when necessary. Though still willing to help Bayonetta out as long as it serves his needs, Rodin’s smooth charm helps disguise one of the most feared, powerful demons in the Trinity of Realities.
- Punisher: War Zone: Frank Castle, the Punisher himself, was a former Force Recon Marine Instructor who lost his family to a mob war. Dedicating his life to wiping out every crime family he can get his hands on, especially ones who manage to escape justice, Frank starts the movie eliminating the heads of the Cesare crime family by staging a blackout during a dinner party, then using a chandelier to wipe out oncoming mooks. Planning to retire after accidentally killing an undercover FBI Agent named Nick, even leaving behind his savings to Nick’s family, Frank promises to rid the city of the rising gangster Jigsaw as his final job. After Jigsaw kidnaps Nick’s family and his friend Microchip, Frank fights his way through Jigsaw’s entire army to save them, eventually saving Nick’s daughter at the cost of Microchip’s life. With Jigsaw soon finished, Frank goes back on his word and returns to his life of vigilantism to protect those who need saving the most.
Lies and Violence!
Tavus.
What's the work?
Batman: Soul of the Dragon is an alright Richard Dragon animated movie that, in grand DC tradition, had to shoehorn in Batman. Centered around the students of a skilled sensei from Nanda Parbat, Bruce and Richard must reunite their old comrades to defend against an ancient evil snake god and his devoted followers, the Cult of the Kobra.
Who is Lady Shiva?
One of Bruce and Richard's classmates and O-Sensei's most skilled student, Lady Shiva is... well, you all probably know her reputation from the comics. She's the best, the most dangerous woman in the world. Wholly dedicated to her master's teachings, she also takes to his lessens like a fish in water—when he assigns them all to try to punch giant rocks until they break, Shiva's the first to realize he only said to try, as a lesson in how some things are impossible to accomplish.
Her intelligence and dedication eventually earns her the role of guardian of the Soul Breaker sword—when one of her fellow students objects, O-Sensei allows her to prove her worthiness in single combat... with the caveat that she can only use a single finger to defend herself. She proceeds to utterly humiliate and brutalize him, because what the hell else would you expect?
Anyways, because of shenanigans, O-Sensei sacrifices himself to seal away a demon whose prison the Soul Breaker unlocks. Shiva leaves to safeguard the sword... through murder. Lots and lots of murder. Setting up shop in Gotham, Shiva uses her skills to ascend to the head of the local Chinatown's criminal underworld, garnering a reputation so dreaded that even Batman is hesitant to take her on.
Bruce and Richard, fighting Kobra, track her down when they realize they need the sword. There they find Shiva overseeing a fight ring, but when one of her contestants cheats, she enters the ring herself to effortlessly humiliate and murder him for his dishonor, stabbing him in the neck with just her fingers. Kobra proceeds to attack, and while Shiva easily murders a bunch with their own weapons, Bruce and Richard are too late to warn her they're after the sword, and they escape with it. The trio briefly give chase in the Batmobile—Shiva figures out where the ejector seat is, rocketing herself up onto an overpass to kick a Kobra cultist off his bike, steal it, and proceed to murder a bunch more—but a helicopter suddenly flies by and picks up the cultists with the sword.
The trio pick up Bronze Tiger and head to the island where the cult is planning to summon the demon. Shiva murders a bunch more cultists and personally duels Kobra's right-hand, shattering her sword with her own hand as she proclaims "[she] is the weapon" before stabbing her to death with her fingers again.
Yadda yadda yadda, the demon is summoned through a portal and Richard kills it, but its armies are still coming to march through the portal and lay waste to the planet. The portal needs a sacrifice to be closed, so all four enter to face the demons together.
Mitigating factors?
Nothing major that gets in her way. She's a badass presented as one of the best of the students, and for very good reason. Shiva's always clever and on top in fight scenes—the only time she isn't is when she's facing a powerful demon lord possessing her already skilled sensei—and is quick-witted during high-stakes action, using things like the Batmobile's ejector seat to get an edge over the cultists.
And she's absolutely ruthless enough—Batman here is much more inclined to killing, but he has nothing on Shiva, whose first and often most successful response to every problem is brutal murder.
Verdict?
Small role overall, but methinks enough with that she's got.
Hell yes to Shiva. Honestly, I feel like this is the only adaptation that really does her justice.
Not the Eye
to Lady Shiva
Ultimate Moral Compass
Lady Shiva
Lady Shiva
To Shiva
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Lady Shiva.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lady Shiva
Goku Black
shiva
Game!Shelley De Killer, Sunayama, Storyteller.
Shiva, Tavus.
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 29th 2023 at 5:25:40 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Lady Shiva
Ok, with thanks to Scraggle for recommending this one, lemme tackle one I tried on CM many years back, but who was downvoted for not being bad enough; I've more than come to agree with that sentiment, and feel the villain fits far better here, anyway!
What's the work?
All Dogs Go to Heaven 2 is a sequel to the classic Don Bluth animated film. This time around, our angelic mutts Charlie and Itchy descend from Heaven to find the missing, powerful Gabriel's Horn and return it to itself rightful place, in the process being tempted to stick around the mortal realm.
The surprisingly nasty villain from the first flick, Carface, returns in this one...and is reduced to a total goofball of a minion by the sequel's Big Bad, pulling a major Eviler than Thou...
Who is Red? What makes him a candidate?
- Played by the inimitable Broadway actor George Hearn, Red is a demonic cat straight from the bowels of Hell, who seeks to claim Gabriel's Horn.
- Putting an ad in the paper (1-800-BRIMSTONE!), Red contacts the seemingly reformed villain Carface in Heaven and makes a deal with him for power in exchange for Carface's soul (which Carface, humorously, assumes is sole for his shoes
![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
). Red instructs him on how to sneak into Heaven's securest vault and swipe Gabriel's Horn, and though Carface tries to claim the Horn and returns to Earth, he loses the Horn in the process when fellow angels Charlie and Itchy pursue.
- Disguising himself as a kindly canine fortune teller and using Carface to lure Charlie and Itchy to him, Red supplies them with dog collars that grant them physical forms on Earth for 24 hours. Red then simply kicks back as Charlie and Itchy sniff around to find and return Gabriel's Horn, knowing they'll eventually locate it and having a plan to claim it from them; in the meantime, he pulls out a delightfully devilish Villain Song wherein he utterly dresses down Carface's "minor league" evil and proudly proclaims how "It feels so good to be bad!"
- Once Charlie has found the Horn, his collar's time runs out. As Red anticipates, he has grown fond of being on Earth, and Charlie returns to Red wishing for another collar to spend more time on the mortal realm. Red uses his own guise and Carface to subtly trick Charlie into promising the Horn in return, and even when Itchy shows up and tries to spoil the deal, Red ensures it goes off without a hitch, grants Charlie his collar, and demands Charlie bring him the Horn. To further ensure Charlie follows through, Carface kidnaps Charlie's young friend David.
- Setting up shop at Alcatraz, Red is brought the Horn by Charlie. Red then reveals his plan: to modify and use the Horn to drag all dogs down from Heaven, trap them inside Alcatraz, and drag the whole prison down to Hell, so that it will be "A cat's world, now!"
- When Charlie and Itchy desperately try to steal the Horn back and save all dogs, Red grows in size and tries to crush them, using his control over Charlie's collar to slow him down as he tries to take the Horn. Though Red nearly reclaims the Horn and pushes through his weakness to water, Charlie is able to take advantage of the creaking metal structure they climb atop, and when it breaks, Red falls far enough to give Charlie time to blow the Horn.
- All dogs return to Heaven, Alcatraz returns to its position, and Red himself is dragged back down to Hell, nonetheless getting one last win when his demon minions show up to drag a cowardly Carface down to Hell with Red to fulfill his deal.
Is he magnificent?
Red's Evil Is Hammy personified, a demon who revels in his villainy and is delightfully Faux Affably Evil in the process. He tricks Charlie and Itchy into being his pawns, uses the not-very-smart Carface to his advantage repeatedly, uses the collars he grants Charlie to influence and control him, and nearly succeeds in upending the entire spiritual world through his scheming.
He's ultimately only beaten by chasing Charlie up a water tower that breaks and knocks him down long enough for Charlie to blow the Horn, and though he's obviously angry as he gets dragged back down to Hell, he never expresses any fear or cowardice to his defeat.
Is he a bastard?
His plan, on paper, sounds worse than it is, which is why he was ultimately downvoted on CM. He's trying to drag all dogs from Heaven down to Hell, but what this actually means for the dogs is never presented as anything but imprisonment; there's no talk of "eternal suffering" or any some such, so Red's rapsheet ultimately amounts to "threatens a child to get the Horn, tries to kill the heroes, and wants to imprison all dogs' spirits in a nebulous prison." He's not too evil at all, and the very presentation of his character is that of a hammy, cheesy villain, not any kind of a terrifyingly realistic "you will burn for eternity mwahaha" type Knight of Cerebus
Final Verdict?
I'd say Yes
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
Oh man. Memories.
Red
Not the Eye
to Red
I Remember that movie.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Apr 29th 2023 at 3:38:45 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Shiva, Red
Wb Belladona from the series? She worth a shot?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Red
Happy yes to Red!
Who do I have to write up? Yes to Red, and...
What's the work?
Hard Boiled is one of my favorite action films. One of John woo's most famous, the story is about Inspector Tequila Yuen trying to bust a ring of smugglers, whose partner is killed in a shootout. Tequila meets a hitman named Alan...who's an undercover cop, and together they challenge the feared Johnny Wong. Our subject of the EP? Johnny Wong's right hand man: Mad Dog
Who is Mad Dog?
a ruthless mobster who oversees Wong's operations. Mad dog ferrets out one of Wong's lieutenants as an informant and beats him on the docks. When the heroes shoot Foxy, said informant, non-fatally, Mad Dog kens onto it when Wong sends him to assassinate Foxy and pulls it off effortlessly after giving the heroes the slip....Mad Dog is also the man responsible for organizing Johnny Wong's rise to the formerly more honorable outfit of "Uncle" Hoi.
Now, Mad Dog proves he's an expert gun fighter, a crafty tactician and able to think on his feet to hold his own against Alan and Tequila both. After discovering that the vault that belongs to Johnny Wong is connected to a hospital, the gangsters pile in to take a group of hostages...Mad Dog intends to use it just as cover with the hostages released, but Wong shows his true colors.
Mad Dog is able to match Alan, but ultimately ceases because of the hostages...but Wong guns them down to get to Alan to the fury of Mad Dog, who denounces his boss and opens fire on him, wounding him but running out of ammo. Wong and his men respond by fatally shooting Mad Dog, who collapses and dies soon after.
Mitigating issues?
Mad Dog handles the actual heavy lifting for his petty, short tempered sadist of a boss. He organizes Wong's rise, is an expert fighter and planner and wins full points for his dignity and honor. While he uses the hospital as a fighting arena, he makes it clear he doesn't want innocents harmed and passes up a chance to kill Alan so none of them will be.
If that weren't enough, Mad Dog is indeed a bad dog, but he's horrified when Johnny Wong murders the hostages, turning on his boss and dying as a result. He only fails to kill him because he runs dry on bullets, but his reaction is to throw the gun aside with a furious look before he's shot.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Yes to Tavus.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread