Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Tom Turner.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Here's the second and last Monkey Man proposal.
Who Is He?
Rana Singh is the crooked chief of police who is in Baba’s pockets.
What has he done?
Responsible for carrying out Baba’s corruption in return for drugs and women, Rana allows his cops to commit hate crimes like abusing trans and Muslim civilians to purify India.
But Rana is heavily involved in Baba’s plan to wipe out villages to build his factories, with Rana leading the charge and resulting in dozens of deaths. With Kid’s village being one of many, Rana commences the attacks, and even takes a break from the carnage to attempt to rape Kid’s mother. But when she retaliates, Rana strangles her to death, even burning her body for good measure.
Encountered by Kid several times many years later, Rana repeatedly taunts him about his mom, but Kid finally gets his revenge by beating the ever-loving fuck out of him to death. Can’t say he didn’t earn that.
Redeeming Qualities?
Nothing. Unlike Baba, who's at least Faux Affably Evil, Rana doesn't believe in his rhetorics, and is helping him for money, sex, and power.
Heinousness?
Rana's The Dragon to Baba, and is his most fully active henchman. Rana participates in Baba's worst crimes like the village massacres, plus he's a pervert who tried to rape Kid's mother. He's also a very personal villain to Kid, as he was the one who murdered his mother.
Conclusion
Another simple keep.
"No running in the halls!"
Rana
Dagded Dujardin
Rana
Not the Eye
Jogo
Rana
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to Tim.
Yes to Rana. He actually to me is worse than Baba, if only because he's more hands-on.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
for Rana Singh.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Also anybody mind if I handle discussion for SPY×FAMILY CODE: White? It just came out in North America.
"No running in the halls!"
The Emperor of Evil!
to Rana as well.
The Draftsman of Doom
Go ahead, Jackie.
Yes to Baba, Rana and Tom.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 19th 2024 at 2:05:37 PM
Rawr.
pronounced 'Scraggle'
Go ahead, Jackie. On reservations I'm gonna claim recent horror movie Late Night with the Devil.
Watch for the sign of the Saint — he will be back!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Pending (aside from my own and NYPD Blue):
- Carl Reissman ( ~Atlantis1930 )
- Linden Lark ( ~Orangutans )
- Fright Krewe: Reveler (Ravok)
- Ivo Shandor (Ravok)
- Sentinels-related (Ravok):
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
to Dr. Gross, Tom and the Monkey Man duo
Anyway, yesterday I said I was going to EP Andrew from Lizzie and like clockwork here we go
What’s the work?
Lizzie the Musical is a absolute banger musical very loosely based on the case of Lizzie Borden
Who is he and what has he done?
Andrew Jackson Borden is Lizzie and Emma's father and a monstrously abusive and controlling parent.
He is described as a very greedy, selfish man. When he worked as an undertaker he would cheat his costumers out of their money by giving them small coffins when they payed extra for big coffins and cut off the feet of the corpses to make them fit.
After the death of Lizzie’s mother he would marry Lizzie’s Wicked Stepmother Abby.
He would keep his daughters in his home and show no regard for their autonomy, keeping them away from other boys. He would also repeatedly sexually abuse Lizzie and it’s indicated that his abuse is what led to Lizzie’s deteriorating sanity.
you can guess what Lizzie does next
Redeeming qualities?
None he clearly does not care about his daughters and there’s no indication that he cares for either of his wives
I should note that there is no evidence to suggest that the real Andrew Borden raped or abused his daughter. It’s commonly speculated that he did, but there’s no proof of this and the musical takes tons of artistic liberties.
Heinousness?
The only other baddies in the play are Abby who’s a Gold Digger who neglects her stepchildren (and it’s slightly implied she may not be a Wicked Stepmother due to Unreliable Narrator) and Lizzie who murder her father and stepmother (but it’s justified in this case).
Long story short, he’s the only rapist in the play and he repeatedly rapes his own daughter and is responsible for her Sanity Slippage, pass
Final verdict?
I’d say keep
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Not the Eye
Andrew Jackson
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Andrew Borden, the Monkey Maker, and the foes of the Monkey Man!
One little detail I loved with Baba Shakti, that drives home how little he cares about his own faith aside from the power it brings him: when Kid has his final confrontation with Baba, the latter admits that his favorite character in the Ramayana is... Ravana. The blackhearted demon king. Because like Baba himself, he "built an empire from nothing." Ignoring the quite obvious fact that Ravana ultimately lost everything because he pissed off the wrong people. Guess what happens to Baba like two minutes later?
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Rana and Dr. Gross. Do you think the Lich could count there as well?
Jogo
Andrew Jackson
Dagded Dujardin
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
He already is a potential candidate buuuuut the fic's going to feature him in the upcoming last chapter so I'm just waiting for it to be finished so I can propose him with his full crimes list.
to Jackson btw
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Borden.
Rawr.
...Phenomenal
for Gross, the two Monkey Man characters, Tom, and Borden.
for Andrew Jackson Borden.
to Dr. Cassandra Gross, Baba Shakti, Tom Turner, Rana Singh and Andrew Borden.
I would like to propose the character of Amnās from The Count of Years:
What is the work?: The Count of Years is part of Almea, the setting for many fantasy stories by Mark Rosenfelder, with the Count itself being an in-universe Creation Myth. This is very important, as it means that the villain being discussed is considered the Satan-figure of Almea and as such is blamed for everything bad by the in-universe Almeans (to whom TCOY functions as scripture).
Who is Amnās and what has he done?:
- As stated, Amnās is the Satanic Archetype of his world, and out of all beings is the most responsible for corrupting it away from the state of perfection in which it originally existed. Though the initial creation of evil was done by somebody else, that character is punished almost immediately and cannot do anything else, and it is stated in-universe, and thoroughly demonstrated, that Amnās is far more evil than the actual creator of evil on Almea. Amnās was in fact the only witness to Ecaîas’s creation of evil, and immediately tells Iáinos, the creator of the world, about it. But, importantly, he does not petition Iáinos to fix things, because in Amnās’s mind nothing bad actually happened; he has no problem with evil existing and just wanted to gloat that the creator has been outsmarted by his creations. In response, Iáinos tells him why he was wrong and gives him the celestial equivalent of a time-out.
- Enraged by this, Amnās dedicates the rest of his existence to ruining creation even more, going out of his way to target innocents who have nothing to do with this. He creates a helper, Soxāeco, who explicitly lacks any capacity for goodness. (As such, Soxāeco is not eligible for Complete Monster status himself and will not be discussed.) However, in-universe claims that Soxāeco is more evil mean only that he is Made of Evil, compared with Amnās who could still choose to do good but intentionally never does so. He never at any point makes an action that isn’t evil, though he could do so and thus passes the moral agency test. More importantly, Amnās both knew Soxāeco would be evil when he made him, and fully desired this, meaning he is ultimately responsible for all those actions. One could well argue Soxāeco is like a Tyke Bomb who only exists because of the malice of Amnās.
- As soon as Iáinos creates physical beings, Amnās creates evil copies to go to war against them. He does this twice, creating the Ogres to try to exterminate the race of Giants, and, after that plan mostly succeeds in wiping out the Giants, the ktuvoks to wage war on the ilii. The ktuvoks, for context, murder and eat children for fun. This leads to a series of eight world wars, in which Soxāeco with Amnās’s approval moves on from just wanting to make evil counterpart species to instead trying to physically destroy the planet. This fails and Soxāeco is killed in the attempt, and Amnās is only shaken because Soxāeco was the brains of the operation; he didn’t actually care for him. After this, Amnās is no longer content with making his own evil races but now begins to corrupt the good races, and is far more successful in this endeavor than in any of his previous ones. After the elcari are created, Amnās kidnaps their children and brainwashes them to serve him and war against their parents, and even later, after humans are created, he tempts the human kings to go to war with the ilii, an act which corrupts them and makes it possible for humans to do evil, something which previously was impossible for the first ten human generations, but once done is permanent. (Lest we forget, he does this just to be a dick, as he hates the prosperous civilization the humans, elcari, and ilii built working together, so he drove them apart.) Afterwards, he starts one more war that is truly apocalyptic in scope, trying once more to destroy the universe out of spite. Though this fails, he nonetheless succeeds in forcing sapient life back to the Stone Age, not to recover for 10,000 years.
Any redeeming qualities?: Not really. Even at the start of his character arc he was a little shit. Some might argue that he didn’t deserve his initial punishment and that is what caused him to hate his creator so much, but this ignores that the punishment was the equivalent of a time-out. Imagine if a child devoted the rest of his life to revenge on his parents for putting him in time-out and you see how irrational Amnās is. Even if one rejects this, it is impossible to justify him killing, torturing, and ruining the lives of innocent beings just to get back at Iáinos, whether directly or through proxies. Not to mention that even his own creations suffer for his actions. The Ogres didn’t want to go to war before being forced to, and the rest are basically Tyke Bombs. Now, he was upset by Soxāeco’s death, but this was not because he had any affection for him. It’s because Soxāeco was the brains of the operation, and though Amnās is paradoxically more effective without him, he is also much pettier and more vindictive than before.
Are they bad enough?: He corrupts the entire world. As a temper tantrum. And every lesser villain does their evil either on his orders or because he made them that way. His personality can be summed up in four words: It's All About Me.
Final verdict: Obviously I think he qualifies or I wouldn’t bother with this, but what are your thoughts? The work page links to the work itself so you can make an informed decision.
Edited by BrendanRizzo on Apr 19th 2024 at 3:30:06 AM
