Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Thomas
Weak Yes Joe. Looking back, he was much worse than he seemed. It also helps that the cartoon is very harmless and light-hearted, which only makes Joe stand out more. Happy yes to Black Puddle Queen and General Grievous. Phe, when Palpatine of all people feels horror towards a villain, it perfectly speaks to how bad the villain is.
Also of course yes to Thomas. It's nice when a novelization simply complements the plot of the main story, and does not rewrite it and make the villains much worse. Great job Cr0w, as always.
Edited by Ghal-Sur on Feb 4th 2024 at 9:57:17 AM
Thomas (Yikes…)
Thomas, Black Puddle Queen, Grievous
Carrot Clone
Thomas
@Fireball 246 You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think Ratigan cares for Felicia. He only has one scene where he pets her, which was just him revelling in the execution of the minion he fed to her. I don't think it's any different from Blofeld petting his cat.
What, like it's hard?
Lizzid people!
Yeah. Always felt he cherished the cat more as a means of execution leading to one of the most disturbing moments in the film.
Thomas.
for Thomas Orosco.
I can understand the arguments, but Felicia is like the only one who he genuinely treats well and nicely with him even calling her “his precious” and “his baby” similar to that of Ursula and how she treats Flotsam and Jetsam compared to everyone else where he’s Faux Affably Evil towards at best. He never subverts this scene with Felicia anyway and he didn’t really need to pet her or show any sort of love towards her for eating Bartholomew. His character page even lists his relationship with Felicia as Even Evil Has Loved Ones.
Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 4th 2024 at 10:12:01 AM
Yes to Thomas, I don't think Ratigan is heinous enough, IMO.
Lizzid people!
I mean... anyone can edit the page and add tropes that they feel apply.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
For an animated film where there are not as strict of high standards, feel it could be argued he does enough. But won't fight for his case out of disinterest just giving my two bits.
Edited by AustinDR on Feb 4th 2024 at 10:17:17 AM
Ratigan didn't seem too fussed about abandoning Felicia to be chased by Toby and killed by Queen Victoria's dogs, IIRC... but then again he had other things to worry about, like getting away from Basil and salvaging the ruins of his master scheme.
If you really wanna try relitigating him, nobody's gonna stop you.
Edited by Arawn999 on Feb 4th 2024 at 10:16:15 AM
Nah, Ratigans definitely heinous enough. He executes Bartholomew by feeding him to Felicia, he throws Fidget to his death, and while it’s Offstage Villainy, he has drowned widows and orphans in the past, and he also tries to cruelly kill Olivia, a little girl. If Scroop who does less is enough for this trope, then Ratigan most certainly is. It’s his care for Felicia that makes him not count in my opinion.
I’m pretty sure Ratigan wasn’t even aware of Felicia being attacked so for all he knew, she was safe.
Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 4th 2024 at 10:25:07 AM
To be a Master
Keep in mind, Ratigan wasn't present when Felicia was chased off by Sherlock's dog.
This is the biggest issue for me since we don't know if he would shrug off Felicia being mauled by palace dogs or be distraught by it.
Edited by Shadao on Feb 4th 2024 at 10:19:29 AM
I don't know, I rewatched that movie a couple of weeks ago and he kidnaps a child, tries to kill the heroes, and offs a henchman. He becomes king of England for a minute but doesn't really get to do anything with that position. For me, I don't think that makes the cut.
I am thinking of re-examing another Star Trek Next Gen villain, a pirate merc captain who enslaved his crew with implants that cause them pain or kill them and almost destroyed a small Federation outpost, I wonder if people here think he is worth a shot.
Edited by Overlord on Feb 4th 2024 at 10:23:14 AM
I agree about Ratigan. Even if you take away his ambiguous concern, he doesn't sound particularly terrible. He lacks the terrible, sadistic and unnecessary cruelty that the likes of the Queen, Sykes or Scroop have and although when he becomes King of England his reign seems to be very terrible, there is somehow little detail. What about the Star Trek villain, he sounds like he's worthy of a post. Good luck and success Overlod!
Lizzid people!
Well, kidnaps and threatens death on the child if her father did not comply; killing one henchman in a horrific fashion i.e. eaten alive (and attempts to sentence the queen to the same fate); tries doing that to another and later throws said minion off his crafted airship despite knowing he couldn't fly. Tries crushing said child by trapping her within the gears of Big Ben; delivers a brutal beating on Basil (to where you can hear him gag), etc.
Curious on the Trek guy though.
Edited by AustinDR on Feb 4th 2024 at 10:32:02 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Thomas. Though what's this about him being a serial rapist?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts As the proposal said, he serially raped his own daughter
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Thomas, great find!
Ratigan I sadly don't think counts. I just rewatched the film specifically to propose him under the newer animated guidelines, but after talking it over with some other tropers, came to the conclusion he really is meant to care about Felicia. Heinousness isn't an issue at all IMO...but Felicia he openly coddles and refers to as "daddy's little honey bun". He never mistreats or abuses her, they have a couple scenes together and he's always doting and sweet as a button to her. And yeah, the end where she gets chased off by dogs Ratigan has no idea is happening, so we can't really hold it against him.
If we could take some of the tie-in comics into account, they thoroughly disprove his "care", but said comics are 1. Almost exclusively in foreign language, and 2. Full of a lot of weird continuity issues betweenst them that nullify the ability to truly use them in an argument.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Lizzid people!
Guess that ends that then.
In that case, has anyone proposed the version from the comics?
Edited by Arawn999 on Feb 4th 2024 at 10:52:06 AM
RIP Toriyama
Nah they're extremely difficult to find and, again, canonicity of them is all over the place so even crafting a proper canon throughline of them would be difficult.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Thomas
Got a very special candidate for today.
What is the work? We all know Silent Hill 2, quite possibly the most famous Psychological Horror game of all time and often regarded as one of the most influential works of the PS2 era, with a remake on the horizon. From the page itself:
Every single human character in the game—with the exception of Laura, for an obvious reason—is trapped in an Ironic Hell where they are constantly punished by the town itself for their past misdeeds. However, one of them stands out as a truly Sympathetic Murderer, and if you're familiar with the franchise, you already know how utterly obsessed it is with Abusive Parents. With help from the Novelization, we finally have a chance to discuss this horrible character.
Who is he?
Mitigating Factors? Not one bit, Thomas was a figurative monster in life and the town brings him back as a literal monster.
Heinous? Like I said before, abusive parents and parental figures are nothing new to Silent Hill—Dahlia Gillespie burned her daughter alive; Leonard Wolf forcibly indoctrinated his daughter into a cult; the founders of the Wish House Orphanage owned a a prison for the sole purpose of torturing children; the leaders of Sheperd's Glen sacrificed their children, etc... It's clear that Would Hurt a Child is definitely the norm in this franchise, but an incestuous Serial Rapist? That's extreme even for Silent Hill.
Conclusion?![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]")
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Feb 4th 2024 at 4:49:23 PM