Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Jogo
Cut Peter and Keep Light Yagami
Speaking of cuts, with Makashima being cut, I'd think we should change the header for the current Psycho-Pass on entries on Anime & Manga: O to Z:
- Psycho-Pass: While Season 1's Big Bad, Shōgo Makishima, has a redeeming quality in his care for Choe Gu-Song, the same cannot be said for these two Serial Killers:
Oh yes, cut Peter, thanks for catching pap!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cut Peter.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Cut Peter, but I don't think that header is necessary, it feels weird to go on how some other guy doesn't count
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Cut Shogo and Peter. Keep Light.
Not the Eye
Cut Peter and keep Light.
About Peter, while I don't think this shows he has remorse for his actions, it is treated as a sympathetic moment where he's nice to someone, so cut.
Not a fan of the header either tbh. At most we can just say “Two Serial Killers count” or something like that.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So Shogo and Peter need to go. What about the Time After Time one?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Maybe
- Psycho-Pass’s first season brings us these two Serial Killers
Edited by LarryT on Apr 24th 2024 at 9:47:59 AM
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Jogo
That's better!
Here is my cut proposition: Angelo Punchinello from Max Payne.
- Complete Monster: Angelo Punchinello is the Boss of the Punchinello Crime Family. A mobster with countless deaths on his orders, Punchinello tries to wipe out the Russian Mob while enforcing the power structure of his Family with such monsters as Jack Lupino and the Trio. Under Nicole Horne, Punchinello sees the mass distribution of Valkyr with no care for the minds it destroys. In his personal life, Punchinello is a sadistic wife beater who tortures his own wife Lisa to death.
While Punchinello is not the kind of character I would normally defend, and the narrative does not give the player a whole lot of reasons to like him, I think there is a problem with his CM status:
- Nicole Horne, the Big Bad in the very same game, surpasses Angelo's evilness by a wide margin. When you've got a villain who is willing to send a gang of doped-up crazies to kill an innocent woman and her infant daughter as a cover-up and then peddle V, a dangerous drug that drives people mad with murderous rage, the heinous standard is set sky-high.
- Although Punchinello's mob peddles V on the streets, Horne is the one who made him her middle-man. Horne also had mercenaries wipe out her science team at the D6 bunker, while Angelo did nothing of the like. He had threatened his psycho capo Jack Lupino with a visit from the Trio, but otherwise displayed no Bad Boss tendencies.
- While Punchinello is characterized as a vile sadist who abused and later killed his wife Lisa, this is still not heinous enough compared to Horne's infanticide, creation and distribution of a deadly drug, and organized murder sprees at D6 and Asgard Building.
The bottom line is, although Angelo Punchinello is wife-beating Hate Sink who peddles drugs and employs psychos like Jack Lupino and the Trio, in my opinion he doesn't pass the high heinous standard set by Horne. What do you think?
Edited by Thermal7 on Apr 24th 2024 at 10:01:39 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cut Peter and Angelo
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Punchinello's EP. I think I'm fine with him keeping.
Not the Eye
Likevise.
I intend no offense. But I feel like we shouldn't vote cut or keep until someone who has knowledge about the games appears.
The wifi here sucks
I mean, the EP is from someone with knowledge of the game and Lighty isn't the type to misrepresent things. I'm cool with keeping Angelo
A thorough EP or proposal/cut suggestion should be written with sufficient info for people who haven’t consumed a work to vote on. I’m saying keep as well.
I know that Angelo may still fit the CM bill because his limited screentime and resources, and because of how batshit insane his mafia is, then his entry should at least be rewritten - remove mentions of the mob war with the Russians (since it's just a background conflict with another gang) and the V-trade (since it's just an extension of Nicole Horne's evil).
Instead I think it's better to write about Punchinello's personal evil acts such as:
- Giving shelter to a sadistic hitman Rico Muerte to use him as hired help, which also allows Horne to send Muerte an assassination contract on the Mayor of New York.
- Ordering Frankie Niagara, one of his Torture Technicians, to brutalize Max Payne and disfigure his body beyond recognition for the cops to find.
- Sending his sister-in-law Mona Sax to be tortured by the Trio (granted, Mona tried to kill him first, but after everything he had done to Lisa he sure had it coming)
- And of course, the abuse and brutal murder of his wife Lisa Punchinello.
I think the problem with Punchinello is that he is a boring and irrelevant villain and his deeds are not really elaborated upon; even his murder of Lisa is only briefly glossed over a couple of times and then forgotten shortly after. Nicole Horne and her cruelty take center-stage right after Angelo's death.
Since Punchinello is a lesser villain I concede that maybe he should not be compared with Big Bads like Nicole Horne or Victor Branco, but I still think it's worth debating if Angelo should either to be cut or rewritten to better explain the things he'd personally done (or ordered to be done) within his limited presence and resources.
Not the Eye
How backround is his mob war exactly? And I’m firmly agains removing V-trade since it is still part of his rapsheet even if he does it at behest of somebody else. I would be fine with adding some of his more nasty acts however.
That was my original issue with the current CM entry; it doesn't elaborate on things like ordering Frankie to disfigure Max or sending Mona to be tortured by the Trio.
Alright forget about the cut request - just give Angelo a more thorough rewrite.
PS: I'm actually new to this CM discourse, so I'm still navigating things like Heinous Standard and resources, the relevance of certain evil acts to the plot, etc.
Edited by Thermal7 on Apr 24th 2024 at 11:50:39 AM
The wifi here sucks
So I'm going off of the EP here but there's apparently a level where Max intervenes in an attack on the Russian Mob by Angelo's forces. If that's true then that should stay up. I'm all for an expansion to include smaller nasty crimes though.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I played the game, but over 20 years ago, so my memory of it isn't too strong.
I'm fine with an expansion.
Edited by ACW on Apr 24th 2024 at 2:56:29 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
No, it's the other way round, Vladimir Lem's gang attacks Punchinello's derelict building with bombs. At no point do you see Angelo's people attacking Vlad's gang (this isn't to say there isn't a mob war; you just don't see much of it). At one point Vlad asked Max to kill Boris Dime, a turncoat who stole Vlad's guns. He was about to hand them over to Punchinello before Max killed him. Instead of an outright attack, Punchinello simply stole Vlad's guns and thought he wouldn't have the guts to fight back.
I've just read on the EP that Punchinello and Horne plotted together to kill the Mayor, and honestly I think that's baseless speculation (no offense to the author of that EP); Angelo harbored Rico Muerte in Lupino's hotel and Muerte was also hired by Horne, but there's nothing to suggest that the two instances are connected. They did not conspire to kill the Mayor - Horne simply offered a hit and Rico accepted the payoff. Without Angelo's involvement.
But Angelo definitely peddled V, definitely ordered Max's disfigurement, definitely butchered his wife, and definitely tried to burn Max in his restaurant. The entry should be rewritten with this in mind.
Edited by Thermal7 on Apr 24th 2024 at 12:12:58 PM
Sorry for the double post but I ran across a cut proposal
from 43 a bit ago which seems to have petered out without any action being taken. It's for Peter Kirlan III
from Are You Afraid of the Dark?. It cites his final moments in the episode where he wishes farewell to the protagonist (seen at 22:30 here
). The specific quote is "Goodbye Danni. I'm going out back now, to join my family. It's been far too long. Enjoy your youth, while you can." This, combined with him being dismissed as a "sad old man" right afterwards, feels like a clear Alas, Poor Villain moment to me and a showing of genuine remorse for his actions. I say we cut him.
- Complete Monster: Peter Kirlian III lives alone in a small inn. Keeping his youth and life after a century via the lives of others, Peter lures innocent people to his inn and uses mirrors to drain their lifeforce, keeping them listless and weak until they "check out" and he buries their bodies behind the inn, with a recorded body count of over twenty men, fifteen women, over thirty children, and ten dogs.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon