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is Central Theme too narrow?

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Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#1: Sep 7th 2022 at 11:56:28 PM

A work can have multiple themes without any of them being more central than the others. And a work can have secondary or tertiary themes, or themes that aren't prominent enough to be called "central" but are nevertheless notable.

Should Central Theme be expanded/renamed to Theme? (currently a redirect to Central Theme)

Another option could be making Theme a supertrope, but in that case, would there still be a need for Central Theme? Or would it be The Same, but More Specific?

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#2: Sep 8th 2022 at 7:35:07 AM

but are nevertheless notable

This is one of those areas where literary analysis starts turning into an ink blot test. People come up with conclusions and find evidence to support it within the work. They're not always wrong, but this sort of analysis is the basis behind the belief that the author doesn't know how to analyze their own works.

The central theme can generally be agreed upon, if a work has one. Sometimes there's a debate between one or two different themes.

Other themes are described by essays, which I don't think is something we need to collect because it violates CCW. If the theme is obvious enough that it can be described in a few sentences with support, then it was central to the story. If it was more subtle than that, then we end up with Wall of Text formatting. I don't think we should encourage the latter format.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#3: Sep 8th 2022 at 8:14:27 PM

A work can have major themes without any of them being the central theme.

17776 and its sequel are intended, in the words of the author, "as open-ended explorations of themes and concepts." I can think of at least several themes that get explored in depth, at least one even to the point of lampshading. But it wouldn't be accurate to single any of them out as the Central Theme.

If the theme is obvious enough that it can be described in a few sentences with support, then it was central to the story. If it was more subtle than that, then we end up with Wall of Text formatting.

Both obvious and subtle themes can be described either briefly or with walls of text.

Actually this gets into something I've noticed about Central Theme examples — the vast majority tend to just state the theme itself, without any supporting details. Does this make them partial-context examples?

Also, a number of examples list multiple themes. For instance:

    from the Literature subpage 
  • Harry Potter:
    • How do the circumstances of our childhoods effect who we become, for good or ill? Harry and Voldemort have similar backgrounds but Harry chose to be a good person while Voldemort chose to become a megalomaniac. Although he’s a good person, Dumbledore’s childhood made him secretive and manipulative. Snape was bullied as a kid but turned into a bully himself as an adult, etc.
    • For her part, J. K. Rowling says that the central theme is death: "The theme of how we react to death, how much we fear it. Of course, I think which is a key part of the book because Voldemort is someone who will do anything not to die. He's terrified of death. And in many ways, all of my characters are defined by their attitude to death and the possibility of death."
    • Whether certain values — courage, intelligence, hard work and cunning — can be easily sorted and identified. People can be brave in all sorts of unexpected ways, even the Bookworm can't know everything, and everyone needs a good deal of cunning and hard work to survive. Even the best magic in the world can't identify What You Are in the Dark and there are many cases, where people "sort too soon" and judge too readily.
    • How do you move on from past mistakes? Do you learn Misery Builds Character or do you double down on past behavior? Can you learn to forgive yourself or do you carry the burden around for the rest of your life?
  • James Bond:
    • The lack of difference in the method used by the Designated Hero and the Card-Carrying Villain.
    • What is Britain's role in the Cold War between the United States and the Soviet Union? How would this impact Anglo-American relations?
    • The more recent novels even ask whether 007 can adapt to the post-Cold War environment.
  • Lolita:
    • Can we sympathize with a man who has done the unthinkable?
    • Can we trust people just because they are intelligent and articulate?
    • Was post-war suburban America really the shiny, happy place it wanted to be portrayed as? Is European and American culture incompatible?
    • Also, on a more explicit level: how dangerous and seductive sexual predators can be when they justify their crimes with victim blaming and theatrically indulge in self-pity.
  • The Lord of the Rings:
    • Even those imagined insignificant can change the world.
    • Evil Cannot Comprehend Mercy, evil can only corrupt, and you can't plan for everything.
    • Some must be willing to give up everything they have in order to preserve it for others.
    • The temptations and uses of Power.
    • Courage in the face of hopelessness.
    • To paraphrase Gandalf, "in difficult times, it's common to wish such things weren't happening to you or your generation. The only thing you can do is decide what you'll do with the time you have."
  • Mistborn: The Original Trilogy: It's better to trust and be hurt than to never trust at all, and though trust is often betrayed, it's just as often rewarded; fight for what you believe in, even when it looks like you can't possibly win, and you can change the world; all actions have consequences, even if those consequences aren't always readily apparent; there's always another secret. Each book also has as a central theme the exploration and deconstruction of a particular High Fantasy trope: the Evil Overlord in The Final Empire, prophecy in The Well of Ascension, and The Chosen One in The Hero of Ages.
  • Moby-Dick: The dangers of pursuing an unwinnable quest.
    • If you begrudge and seek revenge for all the bad things the universe throws your way, you'll only cause further harm to yourself and those around you.
    • The surface of the visible world contains only a small portion of what exists and human endeavor (such as harvesting whale oil for cosmetic products) is absurd in the scale of the universe.
  • A Song of Ice and Fire: More than a few:
    • Extremism is dangerous - fire may be deadly, but ice will kill you just as dead. Too-rigid insistence on the law or morality is as dangerous as too little regard for it. It isn't enough to be a good man to be The Good King and The Good Chancellor while pure ruthlessness and unchallenged evil will enjoy, at best, short term victories but produce nothing long-lasting.
    • Is war ever justified? Who is it that really pays the price for wars?
    • How can a society praise and celebrate women as something to protect on one hand, and then turn and subject them to submission and rape on the other? How do these women feel about their much more restrictive gender norms/roles? How do they feel about their survival being entirely in the hands of men? What about women who actively choose to oppose these norms?
    • Nobody is what they seem, everyone has Hidden Depths and even your close family members will have secrets that you probably won't find out. Most of the really heroic actions are The Greatest Story Never Told and history is Written by the Winners.
    • Is a political system based on inheritance truly in the best interest of the realm?
    • History is always moving forward, and nothing ever really ends. One person's happy ending is often just the beginning of somebody else's road of trials.
    • And as Word of God said originally, is it possible to be a good person and a good ruler? What does it mean to take a moral stance politically or try to govern in a way that people believe is right by their morality?
    • Tales of Dunk and Egg: What does chivalry truly mean? Can the knightly ethos solve problems where there aren't damsels to rescue and villains to kill?

Is this misuse / a symptom of a missing supertrope?

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